So Jesus plus then?

No. Are we having a serious conversation or nah?

About the OP or some rabbit hole?

Whatever topic you think might be spiritually beneficial to examine. But if you would rather toss silly barbs I can get more entertainment skimming memes on x.

Sorry you missed my point that Dermoc responded to and decided to challenge me.

ETA, again its why I rarely post here.

i didn't challenge you, its not a duel. but cool, no worries

Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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dermdoc said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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And the non-Christians Mussolini had murdered are not?

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She didn't mention them by name, but let's hope

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Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Pretty simple theology.

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What's the point of this life if a guy like Mussolini kills hundreds of thousands and participates in the Holocaust goes to eternal paradise while his victims, if they don't believe the same theology, are tormented? I know that's not your position, Derm, but it is the official position of a lot of Christian groups.

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It's kind of a catch-22 on your part, because if there is no God the universe is acting completely irrespective of any ideas of fairness or reciprocity or anything like that, which is what should be expected because we're all just random consequences of random events.

However from my point of view, why punish a man with eternal torment who has seen the error of his ways and turned from them? For his victims, if they didn't come to know Jesus through no fault of their own they should be ok provided they followed the code inscribed on their hearts. If they rejected Christ, then they rejected Christ, and will not spend eternity with him.

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So at the end of the day the perpetrator of horrors is more worthy of eternal life for a last second change of heart than one of his victims who was an otherwise good person who didn't accept the claims of Christianity, and had their life snuffed out prematurely. If you can't see why some may question that "justice," I'm not sure what to tell you.

Zobel said:

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If there is action required on the part of that man - repentance - then how can you say he is sure to be saved? That seems to be an argument the other way.

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IMO, the Bible illustrates that repentant sinners will go to heaven and I can only conclude that he was repentant.

Evidently Peter was a repentant believer and Judas was not.

I agree that repentant sinners can attain salvation. Otherwise there would be no salvation for anyone. The key word there is repentant.

I read St Paul as saying - the church needs to put that man outside of the assembly (turn him over to Satan) so that he can experience the loss (destruction of the flesh) in order that he will repent and therefore save his soul.

If that man does not repent, he will not be saved. Just like anyone else. Salvation is always linked with repentance.

sodycracker said:

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Regarding the original question - if we could lose our salvation, we would all lose our salvation daily. Salvation would be temporal not eternal.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 talks about a man who was sleeping with his own mother or stepmother. That's about as low as you can get. He was to be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

On the other hand, it appears as though Judas never believed that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior; therefore, the assumption that at some point Judas had to have accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior must be inaccurate.

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Is it not possible that we are constantly losing and gaining our salvation? If salvation is a finish line, is it not possible that daily we are either gaining or moving away?

Quo Vadis? said:

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sodycracker said:

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Regarding the original question - if we could lose our salvation, we would all lose our salvation daily. Salvation would be temporal not eternal.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 talks about a man who was sleeping with his own mother or stepmother. That's about as low as you can get. He was to be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

On the other hand, it appears as though Judas never believed that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior; therefore, the assumption that at some point Judas had to have accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior must be inaccurate.

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Is it not possible that we are constantly losing and gaining our salvation? If salvation is a finish line, is it not possible that daily we are either gaining or moving away?

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"Gaining or moving away" from salvation implies you actually have an impact on your salvation based upon your actions. You don't. It's a gift that none of us deserve.

sodycracker said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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sodycracker said:

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Regarding the original question - if we could lose our salvation, we would all lose our salvation daily. Salvation would be temporal not eternal.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 talks about a man who was sleeping with his own mother or stepmother. That's about as low as you can get. He was to be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

On the other hand, it appears as though Judas never believed that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior; therefore, the assumption that at some point Judas had to have accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior must be inaccurate.

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Is it not possible that we are constantly losing and gaining our salvation? If salvation is a finish line, is it not possible that daily we are either gaining or moving away?

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"Gaining or moving away" from salvation implies you actually have an impact on your salvation based upon your actions. You don't. It's a gift that none of us deserve.

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A gift that we can later reject. If we can't later reject it, then we don't have free will. This is where it all breaks down and no one ever get on the same page.

sodycracker said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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sodycracker said:

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Regarding the original question - if we could lose our salvation, we would all lose our salvation daily. Salvation would be temporal not eternal.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 talks about a man who was sleeping with his own mother or stepmother. That's about as low as you can get. He was to be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

On the other hand, it appears as though Judas never believed that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior; therefore, the assumption that at some point Judas had to have accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior must be inaccurate.

---

Is it not possible that we are constantly losing and gaining our salvation? If salvation is a finish line, is it not possible that daily we are either gaining or moving away?

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"Gaining or moving away" from salvation implies you actually have an impact on your salvation based upon your actions. You don't. It's a gift that none of us deserve.

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We absolutely do. "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand", "repent and believe in the gospel".

Repenting is work. Repenting takes a voluntary action, a movement towards God.

Quo Vadis? said:

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sodycracker said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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sodycracker said:

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Regarding the original question - if we could lose our salvation, we would all lose our salvation daily. Salvation would be temporal not eternal.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 talks about a man who was sleeping with his own mother or stepmother. That's about as low as you can get. He was to be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

On the other hand, it appears as though Judas never believed that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior; therefore, the assumption that at some point Judas had to have accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior must be inaccurate.

---

Is it not possible that we are constantly losing and gaining our salvation? If salvation is a finish line, is it not possible that daily we are either gaining or moving away?

---

"Gaining or moving away" from salvation implies you actually have an impact on your salvation based upon your actions. You don't. It's a gift that none of us deserve.

---

We absolutely do. "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand", "repent and believe in the gospel".

Repenting is work. Repenting takes a voluntary action, a movement towards God.

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Overheard a conversation in McAlister's a while back. One guy was telling his other Christian friends that he came to the realization that if he chose to believe, then believing is a work…. So he must not have chose to have faith, and God did it for him. Essentially worked his way to Calvinism because he was that convicted works don't do anything for our salvation.

If you think you're clever enough to outsmart God then have at it. God knows your heart. If you're sincere in your belief & repentance then God knows. If you want to try to trick God with your cleverness just so you can do things your way then good luck.

I believe this is what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 7:13-14.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Matthew 7:13-14 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.7.13-14.KJV

Who said anything about tricking God?

This line of thinking assumes victims of one evil person are righteous and not themselves perpetrators of evil against others or God.

Shouldn't it really be once saved, saved? Some more verses to ponder on this topic.

John 10:28-29 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

1 Peter 1:5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Jude 1:24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."

2 Timothy 1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Hebrews 10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

As to some thoughts on being saved at the end of that person living a godless and maybe even evil existence ("skip one by the goalie") while those that lived a "good" life but didn't accept Jesus are doomed to hell: see the thief on the cross; see also that according to the scriptures there is no person who is "good" - nobody is saved by works.

I think we will never be able to completely understand God's ways (scriptures say as much), some things are a mystery that we won't comprehend on this side of eternity.

As to the original question, I don't think Judas was ever a true follower of Christ. See Judas as compared to David who sinned terribly, recognized he sinned terribly, suffered consequences here on earth for such sins, acknowledged his terrible sins, lamented over his sins, and repented of such sins, and did his best to live a holy life from then on until his death. Similarly, I don't think people lose their salvation, rather, some have never had true salvation.