For the Once Saved Always Saved crowd:

7,086 Views | 91 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Agilaw
ramblin_ag02
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NoahAg said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

If you take 2 steps back from the common argument, this whole thing doesn't make any sense. The confusion starts when somoene accepts that salvation happens at the moment that someone becomes a Christian, whether through conversion or dedication. Once you accept that assumption, the teachings of the Bible and the Fathers becomes a jumbled mess of contradictions. Why must we endure until the end if no one can take us from God's hands? The Bible says that all men die and are judged, and how can we be saved from judgement before the judgement even happens? The paradoxes and inconsistencies abound.

However, move the time of salvation and all these problems disappear. If the moment of salvation occurs at death, then all of these statements make sense and don't contradict each other. We must endure until the moment of death to be saved. Those that turn away before that are not one of us. And the dead are already in God's hands to be raised again, and no one can take them away from him. Place the moment of salvation at death and everything you read suddently makes sense without contradiction

What do you mean by move the time of salvation?


Instead of salvation happening at the moment someone becomes Christian, salvation happens at death. Up until that point, we all still have free will, and our beliefs and actions still matter. After death, our free will is gone and we get judged. Look at it this way and the long litany of scriptural contradictions vanish
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Zobel
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That is not what the scripture says. It says you'll be judged by Christ for what you have done.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Zobel said:

That is not what the scripture says. It says you'll be judged by Christ for what you have done.
100%

In anticipation of a reply from one of our Protestant brothers in Christ that this is a Pelagian understanding of salvation, allow me to pre-emptively offer thoughts from St. Augustine from the 4th century about our good works saving us. St. Augustine maintained (and the Catholic Church and I presume the Orthodox Churches still affirm) that, in crowning our merits, God is crowning his own gifts, and that if God crowns us, we are crowned by his mercy. Human merit is grounded in God's mercy. St. Augustine tells us that merit is itself a gift, a grace and that merit and grace are not mutually exclusive:

Quote:

St. Augustine in En. Ps., 102.7 (CCSL 40:1457.9-10): "Therefore he crowns you because he crowns his own gifts, not your merits;" "Ergo coronat te, quia dona sua coronat, non merita tua."
https://adoremus.org/2018/03/crowning-merits-crown-gifts/#:~:text=Augustine%20in%20En.,%5B2%5D%20En.

I sincerely believe that many Protestants as well as many Catholics misunderstand this concept. In the end we are not saving ourselves because without God's grace working in and through us, we can do NOTHING meritorious. But with God working in and through us, we can do all things in and through Christ, who strengthens us.
Zobel
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+1

This is the pivotal understanding of synergy, co-working with God. God's working, His Energy, is His activity in the world, which always works for the good and for the salvation of all Mankind. We can choose to cooperate (literally co work, co+operate, same exact linguistic concept as synergy, work+with) with His work or not. When we do, we do good works -- and they are truly good, because they are God's works.

However, that participating in God's works is a grace, and it works both through us and on us. By being His fellow worker we are also made more like God, participating in His grace makes us holy and like Him.

So, even though we are judged by our works, this is still an ontological judgment, not a strictly juridical one.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Zobel said:

+1

This is the pivotal understanding of synergy, co-working with God. God's working, His Energy, is His activity in the world, which always works for the good and for the salvation of all Mankind. We can choose to cooperate (literally co work, co+operate, same exact linguistic concept as synergy, work+with) with His work or not. When we do, we do good works -- and they are truly good, because they are God's works.

However, that participating in God's works is a grace, and it works both through us and on us. By being His fellow worker we are also made more like God, participating in His grace makes us holy and like Him.

So, even though we are judged by our works, this is still an ontological judgment, not a strictly juridical one.
I can't see any space between what you wrote and the Catholic teaching on cooperating with grace. Warms my heart.

I love the idea of "ontological judgment" to contrast it with juridical judgment and the forensic, legal declaration/imputed righteousness concept of justification.

These verses from Romans 5 come to mind, particularly the bolded portions:
Quote:

5 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have obtained access[b] to this grace in which we stand, and we[c] rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been POURED into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 While we were yet helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous manthough perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. 8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.
So, it's not OUR good works. It is God's mercy and grace working in and through us to produce good works that are meritorious because they are OF and FROM God. As you point out, we are co-OPERATING with God's grace. And why does God consider us worthy of receiving his Grace? Because through baptism, we are his adopted heirs, his children, and co-heirs with Jesus to what God has set aside for those who love him and are in his friendship.

I highlighted reconcilliation because it really speaks to how through God's grace we are transformed from one thing into another. 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 speaks to this transformation (ontological change) quite clearly:

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17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Zobel, I do not pretend to be as Greek aware as you, but a quick Google search gave me this:

The Greek word translated in this passage as reconcile is (katallasso), which literally refers to exchanging something such as coins for another thing of equal value. The process of reconciling is a process of matching values. This concept still applies in audits and other financial checks to make sure records match. This idea of making equal seems at first opposed to the core message of Christianity.

The interesting addition to this phrase is that we are being reconciled to Christ. What Jesus Christ offers to humanity is the ability to match him in value, to be made exchangeable with him, and he calls us to help others to be so reconciled.
lobopride
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Zobel said:

That is not what the scripture says. It says you'll be judged by Christ for what you have done.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this one. The whole topic has been about salvation. Our status in Christ will not be judged, but our works for him will be.

https://www.gotquestions.org/judgment.html

There are two separate judgments. Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12). Every believer will give an account of himself, and the Lord will judge the decisions he madeincluding those concerning issues of conscience. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), but rather is the time when believers must give an account of their lives in service to Christ. Our position in Christ is the "foundation" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. That which we build upon the foundation can be the "gold, silver, and precious stones" of good works in Christ's name, obedience and fruitfulnessdedicated spiritual service to glorify God and build the church. Or what we build on the foundation may be the "wood, hay and stubble" of worthless, frivolous, shallow activity with no spiritual value. The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this.

The gold, silver, and precious stones in the lives of believers will survive God's refining fire (v. 13), and believers will be rewarded based on those good workshow faithfully we served Christ (1 Corinthians 9:4-27), how well we obeyed the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), how victorious we were over sin (Romans 6:1-4), how well we controlled our tongues (James 3:1-9), etc. We will have to give an account for our actions, whether they were truly indicative of our position in Christ. The fire of God's judgment will completely burn up the "wood, hay and stubble" of the words we spoke and things we did which had no eternal value. "So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12 ).

The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). This judgment does not determine salvation, either. Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12 says that unbelievers will be "judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Those who have rejected Christ as Lord and Savior will be judged based on their works alone, and because the Bible tells us that "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified" (Galatians 2:16), they will be condemned. No amount of good works and the keeping of God's laws can be sufficient to atone for sin. All their thoughts, words and actions will be judged against God's perfect standard and found wanting. There will be no reward for them, only eternal condemnation and punishment.
The Hefty Lefty
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Zobel said:

yeah, I also have all of those verses in my bible. But I'm not sure what your point is here.

If merely assenting to a set of intellectual concepts does not save you, then why did you add the second part? Or why the first? Together the two are somewhat incoherent. It kind of reads like, you can't lose your salvation, so what you do doesn't matter, but you also can't just have easy believism, so forget what I said above.

Salvation in the scripture means saved from something. In your opinion, what are we talking about being saved from, exactly?

As a kind of hint - since you mentioned works - what is the only thing the scriptures say we'll be judged by?


I've noticed a recurring pattern that when presented with a direct inquiry, you're usually divergent and then your "go to" refutation is that the inquirer's question is illogical or nonsensical. Tell us what we are being saved from and if this salvation is conditional, what disqualifies our positional standing / how is it restored?
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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lobopride said:

Zobel said:

That is not what the scripture says. It says you'll be judged by Christ for what you have done.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this one. The whole topic has been about salvation. Our status in Christ will not be judged, but our works for him will be.

https://www.gotquestions.org/judgment.html

There are two separate judgments. Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12). Every believer will give an account of himself, and the Lord will judge the decisions he madeincluding those concerning issues of conscience. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), but rather is the time when believers must give an account of their lives in service to Christ. Our position in Christ is the "foundation" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. That which we build upon the foundation can be the "gold, silver, and precious stones" of good works in Christ's name, obedience and fruitfulnessdedicated spiritual service to glorify God and build the church. Or what we build on the foundation may be the "wood, hay and stubble" of worthless, frivolous, shallow activity with no spiritual value. The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this.

The gold, silver, and precious stones in the lives of believers will survive God's refining fire (v. 13), and believers will be rewarded based on those good workshow faithfully we served Christ (1 Corinthians 9:4-27), how well we obeyed the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), how victorious we were over sin (Romans 6:1-4), how well we controlled our tongues (James 3:1-9), etc. We will have to give an account for our actions, whether they were truly indicative of our position in Christ. The fire of God's judgment will completely burn up the "wood, hay and stubble" of the words we spoke and things we did which had no eternal value. "So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12 ).

The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). This judgment does not determine salvation, either. Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12 says that unbelievers will be "judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Those who have rejected Christ as Lord and Savior will be judged based on their works alone, and because the Bible tells us that "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified" (Galatians 2:16), they will be condemned. No amount of good works and the keeping of God's laws can be sufficient to atone for sin. All their thoughts, words and actions will be judged against God's perfect standard and found wanting. There will be no reward for them, only eternal condemnation and punishment.
To be fair, you should always end a statement like this with "... and this is my purely subjective opinion of what I personally believe because my religious tradition requires that I believe in Sola Scriptura and there is no objective, divinely guided authority I can point to in support of my personal opinion because that same Bible does not interpret itself and does not come with a divinely ordained table of contents and therefore since Sola Scriptura absolutely and inevitably necessitates that the decision for what is and is not authentic dogma and doctrine must, therefore by its own definition come down to what each individual believer subjectively discerns from his/her reading of what he/she personally believes constitutes the canon of the Bible."

It strikes me that what makes this possible is an arrogation of divine authority that looks and feels a lot like the sin of our first parents who disobeyed God's command to abstain from eating or even touching the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They could eat and touch and enjoy everything else in the garden, but they were not to take unto themselves what is reserved exclusively to God. Isn't this what is happening when sola scriptura is put into practice? An individual purports to exercise the authority to determine what is and is not authentic Christian dogma/doctrine independent from an objective and divinely guarded authority (i.e., separate from God).

And how, you might ask, does anyone avoid this sin of arrogation? Only by approaching the determination of dogma/doctrine under the aegis of a divinely established authority. And how does one do that? In a word, apostolicity. "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). The Greek word here for send is a form of apostelloa familiar-sounding term. Apostolos is the noun form of the same word. Its connotation is not sending in the sense of sending a letter. It has a specific meaning of "one sent with the authority of the one who sent him." Think "power of attorney" or "delegation of authority." Thus, according to Jesus, his New Covenant ministers were not just "sent" in a generic sense; rather, they were "sent" by and with the authority of Christ.

Understanding this idea has ramifications regarding the infallibility of the Church, its juridical authority, and more. Think about it: if Christ's ministers are "sent" with the authority of Christ, infallibility necessarily follows. Jesus did not teach mere opinions of what he thought Scripture might mean. He spoke the infallible word of God, and so must his ministers!

Jesus limited this infallible authority he gave to the apostles in both Matthew 16:18-19, when he communicated it to St. Peter and his successors, and in Matthew 18:15-18, when he communicated a similar authority to all the apostles and their successors in union with Peter and his successors. He limited it to "whatever you bind" or "loose" (singular) when speaking to Peter and his successors. And he limited it to "whatever you bind" or "loose" (plural) when speaking to all the apostles. Christ gave Peter the keys and the authority to bind and loose in harmony with heaven. He also gave the apostles his divine authority in John 20:19-23 when he sends them out and gives them an authority reserved exclusively to God - the power to forgive sin and to retain sin.

Apostolic succession has as one of its central purposes infallible certitude regarding Christ's promise to remain with the Church until the end of time: "Lo, I will be with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matt. 28:20). This promise was given in the context of the sending of the apostles to the ends of the Earth, the implication being that the apostolic gift would continue until the end in their successors, the bishops.

The Matthew 16 point is obviously a point of disagreement, even between Catholics and Orthodox, but even so, both churches still point to a divinely established authority that persists even to this day that is unique from but described in the Bible, which is the undivided Catholic Church established by the divinely protected authority given to it by Christ who built HIS church on the confession of Peter and against which he promised the gates of hell would not prevail.

I fully acknowledge that much of what my previous paragraph states is disputed. But, the basis for a claim of divinely guided authority is there and is established by tradition and scripture. Catholics and Orthodox disagree about aspects of this and this underlies our unfortunate separation, but I think both camps would still agree that there is an objective basis for claiming a divinely guided authority in the visible church, even if we disagree about the specifics of that divinely guided authority.

Zobel
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Quote:

I've noticed a recurring pattern that when presented with a direct inquiry, you're usually divergent and then your "go to" refutation is that the inquirer's question is illogical or nonsensical. Tell us what we are being saved from and if this salvation is conditional, what disqualifies our positional standing / how is it restored?
well, that's what happens when your question assumes a premise that I don't hold to. if salvation is not a one-time thing, it is not something you can have - so how can I answer a question about whether or not you can lose it?

The Torah sets forth multiple falls, and each presents a new problem: the fall of Adam, which introduces death; the fall of Cain which sets Sin out into the world; the fall of the angels / nations, which puts the whole world under the domain of the powers and principalities and unclean and requires the withdrawal of God.

From there it also presents a solution. After the fall of the nations, a new nation created from nothing -- not one existing nation being favored, but a new nation starting with one man and one family. That nation will be set apart and act as a priest and intermediary for the others, and they will make a "beachhead" of righteousness that will manage sin and enable God to dwell with them without their destruction. They will make a covering for their sins and the sins of the whole world, year after year. But this doesn't solve the problems - it only manages the uncleanness, and does not solve Sin or of death. Ultimately even this nation is unfaithful to their calling and is first divided, then exiled.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that He is the same God that appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and led Israel out of Egypt. Through His Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection He solved those problems inside-out. By His death He covered for the sins of not only the Judaeans but the whole world - the once for all atonement St Paul speaks of in Hebrews, which allows all the nations to participate and draw near to God, it cleanses the whole world - not just the Tabernacle and the camp. Problem 3 solved - the domination of the demons. He also offers forgiveness of sins in His blood, in the new covenant, entered into by baptism and the Eucharist. Problem 2 solved - Sin. And through His Incarnation He joined the divine nature to the nature of mankind, enabling us to become partakers of the divine nature and thus participate in eternal life, to become gods by grace what He is by Nature. Problem 3 solved - death. The other part of the gospel is that having done this, and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, when all will be raised for judgment at the last day and He will repay each person according to their works. We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and each of us will receive what is due for the things we have done, good or bad.


This is why the response to the gospel is - what must I do to be saved? - saved from that judgment, saved from Sin, saved from death, saved from dominion of the demons and powers and principalities of this world and age.

So of course it is conditional. To be saved you must repent, be baptized, and be faithful to Jesus Christ, so that when you are before the judgment seat and must give an account of your life, what you have done, you may be found faithful. When you are faithless, you must repent and be faithful. He is merciful and just, honors the effort and intent, and is waiting for us when we return. That's what the scriptures say.
Zobel
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Quote:

There are two separate judgments...This judgment does not determine salvation
????

Doesn't the Lord say "'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil."?


Which of these supposed two judgments is this one?

Quote:

...It will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.' But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
How bout this one?
Quote:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Or this one?

Quote:

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Or this one?

Quote:

...because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.


I'm sorry, but this view is simply not compatible with the scriptures at whole. It first assumes a premise - no judgment for Christians and two judgments - and then ignores every case that doesn't align with that.

There is one judgment at the last day, according to your works. So you should repent and be faithful to Jesus Christ.

I'll go even further and say that every single threat of condemnation and judgment in the NT and the writings of the church father is directed AT CHRISTIANS. Those writings were not written to nonbelievers, but to believers. And the fathers are writing to Christians.
dermdoc
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In my opinion, using Revelation as a fact filled book to determine the end times is fraught with futility.

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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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dermdoc said:

In my opinion, using Revelation as a fact filled book to determine the end times is fraught with futility.


I share your opinion.
lobopride
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This is something that I will have to spend some time on.
Barnyard96
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What if I accept Christ on my death bed?
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Barnyard96 said:

What if I accept Christ on my death bed?


I'm curious what "accept Christ means" and where that is in the Bible.
Barnyard96
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Ok, how would you word what I was trying to say? And how would you respond to my deathbed question?

https://www.gotquestions.org/accepting-Christ.html
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Barnyard96 said:

Ok, how would you word what I was trying to say?


Not 100% sure and I apologize if that came across as snarky. It's a good question.

I don't want to presume but I think what you're trying to ask is what if someone repents and turns to Christ and begs forgiveness and mercy in the face of imminent death, basically doing what the Good Thief did with Jesus on the cross.

I do not pretend to know how the Catholic Church would answer this question, but I will offer my personal opinion. First, I believe the sacraments are the ordinary means established by Jesus by which we can and should receive God's grace. Having said that, God is not constrained by by the sacraments. In my opinion, it will depend on the circumstances and state of the individual's conscience. If someone were to repent of their sins, cry out to God for mercy and forgiveness, and make what the church calls an act of perfect contrition then I believe God is merciful and that person will die in God's friendship. But let me be clear, only God knows with certainty the status of any soul at death. We can have real confidence that we are in God's friendship if we live the sacraments, follow the Lord's teachings, seek forgiveness when we fail and do what he commands us (loving God and neighbor) but we cannot know with absolute certainty. That is something reserved exclusively to God.

That's my $0.02.
Barnyard96
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I'm not Catholic.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Barnyard96 said:

I'm not Catholic.


Does that make the truth any less true?

Maybe I could be more responsive if I understood how you would answer the question?
Barnyard96
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I dont even know what you said.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Barnyard96 said:

I dont even know what you said.


Sorry man.

You asked "what if I accept Christ on my deathbed?"

I am not clear on what "accept Christ" means as you're using it. So I tried to answer based on what I believe.

I will say this: I don't think you get to slip one past the goalie at the end by making a disingenuous prayer. I hold out hope based on God's mercy that a genuinely repentant person who turns to God seeking forgiveness and mercy will receive it, but I don't believe we can know that with absolute certainty, as though if we utter magic words God owes us salvation. This is why we need to live a life of loving God and our neighbor, doing those things Christ commands us to do and not doing what he admonishes us to not do. So when we get to that death bed, we already know God and he knows us and we are in his friendship.
Barnyard96
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Read the link I posted. Have a great night.

FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Barnyard96 said:

Read the link I posted. Have a great night.




Ok. I missed that.

You too.

I read the article at the link. I don't disagree with it as far as it goes, but I think there's more to it than that. The article never mentions the word repent or repentance. That seems to be implied in the phrase "accept Christ." I would go further and say that merely saying "I accept Christ" is sketchy but perhaps if someone who is truly repentant and authentically contrite on their deathbed and asks Jesus to forgive him, placing their trust in Jesus and what and who he is, then I believe our merciful God will forgive that person and he will die in God's friendship.

Hope that answers your question.

Since you shared a link with me, I thought I would share this short piece with you.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2fVW17rMGDQdGJr08kyUE9?si=dEB5IBGcRRuYdYSSR_XDKA
ramblin_ag02
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Barnyard96 said:

What if I accept Christ on my death bed?


Ezekiel 18 seems pretty clear on this as does the parable of the hired workers in Matthew 20. We don't get judged on our life as a whole. We get judged based on who we are at the time everything is over. As long as the change is genuine then you're all good, and God will judge that perfectly
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Quo Vadis?
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Barnyard96 said:

What if I accept Christ on my death bed?


Ezekiel 18 seems pretty clear on this as does the parable of the hired workers in Matthew 20. We don't get judged on our life as a whole. We get judged based on who we are at the time everything is over. As long as the change is genuine then you're all good, and God will judge that perfectly


Indeed, this is in the realm of personal relevation that in no way needs to be believed, but Blessed Edvige Carboni who claimed many visions and attacks by demons, said she received a vision of a deathbed conversion from Benito Mussolini who is in heaven.

It's never too late while you have breath.
Sapper Redux
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And the non-Christians Mussolini had murdered are not?
Quo Vadis?
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Sapper Redux said:

And the non-Christians Mussolini had murdered are not?


She didn't mention them by name, but let's hope
Barnyard96
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I appreciate your input, but I rarely post on this board, because I think its an ineffective way to discuss Christian theology.

We go down so many rabbit holes. Reminds me of the pharisees getting caught up in the law.
dermdoc
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Quo Vadis? said:

Sapper Redux said:

And the non-Christians Mussolini had murdered are not?


She didn't mention them by name, but let's hope
Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Pretty simple theology.
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dermdoc
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Barnyard96 said:

I appreciate your input, but I rarely post on this board, because I think its an ineffective way to discuss Christian theology.

We go down so many rabbit holes. Reminds me of the pharisees betting caught up in the law.
Agree. The Gospel is simple and beautiful. It is Good news. We are reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus Christ.
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Sapper Redux
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dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Sapper Redux said:

And the non-Christians Mussolini had murdered are not?


She didn't mention them by name, but let's hope
Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Pretty simple theology.


What's the point of this life if a guy like Mussolini kills hundreds of thousands and participates in the Holocaust goes to eternal paradise while his victims, if they don't believe the same theology, are tormented? I know that's not your position, Derm, but it is the official position of a lot of Christian groups.
Quo Vadis?
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Sapper Redux said:

dermdoc said:

Quo Vadis? said:

Sapper Redux said:

And the non-Christians Mussolini had murdered are not?


She didn't mention them by name, but let's hope
Romans 10:13
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Pretty simple theology.


What's the point of this life if a guy like Mussolini kills hundreds of thousands and participates in the Holocaust goes to eternal paradise while his victims, if they don't believe the same theology, are tormented? I know that's not your position, Derm, but it is the official position of a lot of Christian groups.


It's kind of a catch-22 on your part, because if there is no God the universe is acting completely irrespective of any ideas of fairness or reciprocity or anything like that, which is what should be expected because we're all just random consequences of random events.

However from my point of view, why punish a man with eternal torment who has seen the error of his ways and turned from them? For his victims, if they didn't come to know Jesus through no fault of their own they should be ok provided they followed the code inscribed on their hearts. If they rejected Christ, then they rejected Christ, and will not spend eternity with him.
Zobel
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Quote:

Reminds me of the pharisees getting caught up in the law.
St Paul was a Pharisee and never stopped being one, and most of the NT is discussion, meditation, and teaching of the Torah.

I think many modern Christians - including me - don't study the Torah nearly enough, so the actual meat of the NT is veiled.

We should all very much be more caught up in the Law.
Barnyard96
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Should we start with Galatians?
Zobel
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If you start with Galatians or any other book in the New Testament without reading and understanding the Torah as St Paul and every other NT author did, you will completely and totally miss the point.

But sure, let's see why you think that the NT says we shouldn't understand, read, and apply the Torah to our lives.

Before we do that though, perhaps we should seriously consider the words of Jesus that say "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Or St Paul where he says "Do we then overthrow the Torah by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah!" and "Is the Torah then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not!"


As an introduction to Galatians I think you need to also really "get" the vibe of gentile vs Judaean that comes up over and over again in the scriptures - Romans is a great example, but its a key part of Acts as well. The question in Galatians is not "should we study and understand and apply the Torah to our lives" but "should gentiles become Judaeans in order to be saved?" Same question at the council of Jerusalem. Same question in Romans. And the same answer comes up over and over again - no. Because salvation is not found in being Judaean - whether by blood (not all who are of Israel are Israel) or by keeping the Torah (for we [Judaeans] know that a person is not made righteous by works of the Torah) - but in Jesus Christ.

If you miss that and you think Galatians is one long argument that we should chuck the scriptures that Christ says point to Him out the window, you're making more or less the same accusation against St Paul that those who wanted him dead did - one which he denies over and over - "Neither against the Torah of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I committed any offense."
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