For the Once Saved Always Saved crowd:

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Quo Vadis?
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8:07a, 7/20/24
How do you square the fact that as much as we know anyone is in hell, Judas is in hell?

Here is one of the literal Apostles of Christ, had to have at some point accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior, who betrayed him and is described as "better had he not been born" and "the son of perdition"?

Wouldn't his likely end seem to show that you can in fact lose your salvation, or that salvation isn't something awarded in an instant?
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PabloSerna
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8:26a, 7/20/24
AG
Why are you stirring the pot?
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Pro Sandy
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 8:35a, 7/20/24
AG
Quo Vadis? said:
How do you square the fact that as much as we know anyone is in hell, Judas is in hell?

Here is one of the literal Apostles of Christ, had to have at some point accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior, who betrayed him and is described as "better had he not been born" and "the son of perdition"?

Wouldn't his likely end seem to show that you can in fact lose your salvation, or that salvation isn't something awarded in an instant?
What is your basis for him having accepted Christ?

John records that Judas used to steal from their money bag. Doesn't sound like a repentant heart.

I think your assumption that Judas was ever saved in the first place is highly doubtful.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to Pro Sandy • 8:39a, 7/20/24
AG
Is it your position then that people who are save will never sin after they have accepted Jesus?
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to Pro Sandy • 8:42a, 7/20/24
Pro Sandy said:
Quo Vadis? said:
How do you square the fact that as much as we know anyone is in hell, Judas is in hell?

Here is one of the literal Apostles of Christ, had to have at some point accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior, who betrayed him and is described as "better had he not been born" and "the son of perdition"?

Wouldn't his likely end seem to show that you can in fact lose your salvation, or that salvation isn't something awarded in an instant?
What is your basis for him having accepted Christ?

John records that Judas used to steal from their money bag. Doesn't sound like a repentant heart.

I think your assumption that Judas was ever saved in the first place is highly doubtful.


The fact that he was An apostle and was given authority to preach and cast out demons/cure sickness.

We know from the Gospel of Luke that casting out demons in the name of Christ is possible, but it stands to reason that merely yelling Christ's name at someone wouldn't be enough to cast a demon out, if it wasn't backed by faith.
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The Banned
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In reply to Pro Sandy • 8:42a, 7/20/24
Pro Sandy said:
Quo Vadis? said:
How do you square the fact that as much as we know anyone is in hell, Judas is in hell?

Here is one of the literal Apostles of Christ, had to have at some point accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior, who betrayed him and is described as "better had he not been born" and "the son of perdition"?

Wouldn't his likely end seem to show that you can in fact lose your salvation, or that salvation isn't something awarded in an instant?
What is your basis for him having accepted Christ?

John records that Judas used to steal from their money bag. Doesn't sound like a repentant heart.

I think your assumption that Judas was ever saved in the first place is highly doubtful.


This was always going to be the response. OP, you're better off sticking with modern people that they know. It is almost certain that they know someone that fell away from the faith, and they are going to have to choose one of the following:

- people can fall away or,
- these people they know are just liars and never truly believed.
- Or the distant 3rd option: they are still saved anyway despite their turning away. You just need to believe for some amount of time and you're good.
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Jim Hogg is angry
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2:17p, 7/21/24
AG
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 2:19
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Jim Hogg is angry
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2:22p, 7/21/24
AG
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Matthew 7:22-23
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Jim Hogg is angry
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2:25p, 7/21/24
AG
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 1:6
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Jim Hogg is angry
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2:26p, 7/21/24
AG
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God

Hebrews 12:2
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Jim Hogg is angry
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2:43p, 7/21/24
AG
OP, thank you for starting this thread, as it's nice to see an actual theological discussion on this forum (especially one of soteriological nature). I believe the majority of professing Christians are false converts. I believe those who come before Almighty God with a contrite heart of repentance and believe on Jesus Christ as the only way of redemption (complete faith in the finished work of Christ through the blood atonement, death on the cross, and resurrection on the third day as prophesied) will be saved. Salvation isn't a process, but a one time event, and those truly in Christ are kept in him (and Hebrews 12:5-7 promises God's chastening and correction for true children of God).

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ramblin_ag02
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4:31p, 7/21/24
AG
If you take 2 steps back from the common argument, this whole thing doesn't make any sense. The confusion starts when somoene accepts that salvation happens at the moment that someone becomes a Christian, whether through conversion or dedication. Once you accept that assumption, the teachings of the Bible and the Fathers becomes a jumbled mess of contradictions. Why must we endure until the end if no one can take us from God's hands? The Bible says that all men die and are judged, and how can we be saved from judgement before the judgement even happens? The paradoxes and inconsistencies abound.

However, move the time of salvation and all these problems disappear. If the moment of salvation occurs at death, then all of these statements make sense and don't contradict each other. We must endure until the moment of death to be saved. Those that turn away before that are not one of us. And the dead are already in God's hands to be raised again, and no one can take them away from him. Place the moment of salvation at death and everything you read suddently makes sense without contradiction
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Jim Hogg is angry
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6:53p, 7/21/24
AG
What inhibits enduring to the end? There's a pretty subjective spectrum (anything short of sinless perfection, willful and unrepentant sin, complete apostasy by denouncing the faith, etc). I know many people that believe salvation can be lost and there is a lot of variance in determining what's necessary to retain it, as well if / how it be can be restored if it's lost.
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Zobel
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9:11a, 7/22/24
AG
It is possible for people who have become actual, real Christians to fall away.

"It is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

Here we see the case of a person who has been baptized (illumination / enlightenment), who have received the Eucharist (tasted the heavenly gift), have received the Holy Spirit, and have experienced first hand the blessings of Christ - and then have fallen away.

It does not say it is impossible for them to repent, but it is impossible to restore them again to repentance, that is to say, once more.

St Paul speaks of salvation and justification in past, present, and future tense. We have been saved - by the appearance of Christ, who brought salvation to all men. We were saved when we were washed, sanctified, and justified. To wit: "when the goodness and loving kindness of God our savior appeared, He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

And yet we are also being saved - "those who are being saved", we are called to work out our own salvation, we can neglect our salvation, we are called by St Peter to make our calling sure.

And of course even in the great supposed bastion of "once saved always saved" - the letter to the Romans - St Paul says "being justified by His blood, we will be saved". He also says "our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed" and that the Spirit we receive is a guarantee of our inheritance until we are redeemed, and that we have a hope of salvation.

Ok - so just as a quick aside, walking through St Paul and touching back on what he says in Hebrews, we can clearly see that a person is saved by washing, receiving the Spirit, and being justified in order to become heirs. And if we tie that to the warning against falling away, there is absolutely no way to say those same people who were enlightened and shared in the Holy Spirit were not saved and justified.

But the problem with modern Evangelical salvation is it takes a beautiful structure and smashes it down into a spiritual minimalism, a flat binary. That simply isn't what is presented in the scriptures. There is no 0/1 view presented in the pages of the NT. Instead there are multiple salvations. Christ is the Savior of all mankind from death, and the redeemer of the whole world from bondage and slavery to the Evil One. All are saved from death. But He is also especially the Savior of those who have faith, who have been made new creations and cleansed from their sin and the taint of Sin from the world. Those are made righteous and will become righteous, being joined through grace to conform to the very likeness of God. They will become like the angels, become sons of God, and grow up to the full stature of God - gods by grace, molded to His image by grace, like Him in every way save only by nature. And of course there is no condemnation for the righteous, for those who are in Christ Jesus. This is salvation - past, present, future.
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10andBOUNCE
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1:17p, 7/22/24
AG
Decent little video highlighting the reformed view if you have 15 minutes. I don't know much about the host of the show and don't follow him, but he captures the idea well with some help from some of the mainstream teachers of today.
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BluHorseShu
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In reply to Jim Hogg is angry • 4:55p, 7/22/24
AG
Jim Hogg is angry said:
What inhibits enduring to the end? There's a pretty subjective spectrum (anything short of sinless perfection, willful and unrepentant sin, complete apostasy by denouncing the faith, etc). I know many people that believe salvation can be lost and there is a lot of variance in determining what's necessary to retain it, as well if / how it be can be restored if it's lost.
And there are many that either believe they are saved and that nothing they do can take that away so the impetus not to sin is there for a while and then not so much because nothing they do can lose it for them. So the response might be that they were never saved. So this begs the question, how can one truly know if they are saved if they still sin? So one could fall into the anxiety of questioning if they ever were really saved every time they sin. Obviously those who are saved will sin. Whether they are repentant and continue to strive not to sin and pray for strength is an expression of their continued faith.

I think people assume faith in Christ at one moment in time is all the bible says is required for 'always saved'. And certainly everyone on both sides of the discussion can quote mine scripture to support their interpretation. But I think we get into the weeds with semantics.

The irony with all of this is that both sides of this argument still agree that persevering to the end with faith in Christ ends in salvation....whenever that end comes for us. Nothing we do merits our salvation. We have to persevere in Christ to the end.
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The Banned
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In reply to BluHorseShu • 5:23p, 7/22/24
Or they believe in limited free will. God literally won't let them change their minds. Calvin had a tough time dancing around this topic and I don't think he did a good job at all
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jrico2727
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6:33p, 7/22/24
AG

As a lighten up post
I present the greatest argument for once saved always saved.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to Jim Hogg is angry • 6:13p, 7/24/24
AG
Jim Hogg is angry said:
OP, thank you for starting this thread, as it's nice to see an actual theological discussion on this forum (especially one of soteriological nature). I believe the majority of professing Christians are false converts. I believe those who come before Almighty God with a contrite heart of repentance and believe on Jesus Christ as the only way of redemption (complete faith in the finished work of Christ through the blood atonement, death on the cross, and resurrection on the third day as prophesied) will be saved. Salvation isn't a process, but a one time event, and those truly in Christ are kept in him (and Hebrews 12:5-7 promises God's chastening and correction for true children of God).



How do you know?
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Junction71
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6:47p, 7/24/24
AG
Judas was never saved. He was always, and prophetically so, doomed to destruction. John 17:12.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to Junction71 • 8:16a, 7/25/24
AG
Junction71 said:
Judas was never saved. He was always, and prophetically so, doomed to destruction. John 17:12.
John 17:12 can easily be interpreted to say that Judas was saved but was lost.
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NoahAg
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 10:50a, 7/25/24
ramblin_ag02 said:
If you take 2 steps back from the common argument, this whole thing doesn't make any sense. The confusion starts when somoene accepts that salvation happens at the moment that someone becomes a Christian, whether through conversion or dedication. Once you accept that assumption, the teachings of the Bible and the Fathers becomes a jumbled mess of contradictions. Why must we endure until the end if no one can take us from God's hands? The Bible says that all men die and are judged, and how can we be saved from judgement before the judgement even happens? The paradoxes and inconsistencies abound.

However, move the time of salvation and all these problems disappear. If the moment of salvation occurs at death, then all of these statements make sense and don't contradict each other. We must endure until the moment of death to be saved. Those that turn away before that are not one of us. And the dead are already in God's hands to be raised again, and no one can take them away from him. Place the moment of salvation at death and everything you read suddently makes sense without contradiction

What do you mean by move the time of salvation?
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Jim Hogg is angry
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In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad • 3:29p, 7/25/24
AG
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:
Jim Hogg is angry said:
OP, thank you for starting this thread, as it's nice to see an actual theological discussion on this forum (especially one of soteriological nature). I believe the majority of professing Christians are false converts. I believe those who come before Almighty God with a contrite heart of repentance and believe on Jesus Christ as the only way of redemption (complete faith in the finished work of Christ through the blood atonement, death on the cross, and resurrection on the third day as prophesied) will be saved. Salvation isn't a process, but a one time event, and those truly in Christ are kept in him (and Hebrews 12:5-7 promises God's chastening and correction for true children of God).



How do you know?


How do I know that Jesus will tell many professing Christians to depart from Him because he never knew them? Is that what you're asking?
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Zobel
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In reply to Jim Hogg is angry • 3:31p, 7/25/24
AG
The thing I notice about people who like to say a lot of Christians are going to be goats and not sheep never seem to consider that they might be one of the goats. The goats were surprised they were goats.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Zobel • 4:01p, 7/25/24
AG
Zobel said:
The thing I notice about people who like to say a lot of Christians are going to be goats and not sheep never seem to consider that they might be one of the goats. The goats were surprised they were goats.
Amen.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Jim Hogg is angry
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In reply to Zobel • 4:11p, 7/25/24
AG
Zobel said:
The thing I notice about people who like to say a lot of Christians are going to be goats and not sheep never seem to consider that they might be one of the goats. The goats were surprised they were goats.


I do agree that I've never met a hyper-Calvinist that decreed he was predestined for destruction. Conversely for those that believe salvation can be lost, I can count on one hand the amount of people that said they'd lost their salvation. There doesn't seem to be a consistent and standard metric for conditional salvation.
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Zobel
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In reply to Jim Hogg is angry • 5:01p, 7/25/24
AG
Of course there is: none of us know, because only One is the judge. And so, we say Lord have mercy. Simple.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to Jim Hogg is angry • 6:56p, 7/25/24
AG
Jim Hogg is angry said:
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:
Jim Hogg is angry said:
OP, thank you for starting this thread, as it's nice to see an actual theological discussion on this forum (especially one of soteriological nature). I believe the majority of professing Christians are false converts. I believe those who come before Almighty God with a contrite heart of repentance and believe on Jesus Christ as the only way of redemption (complete faith in the finished work of Christ through the blood atonement, death on the cross, and resurrection on the third day as prophesied) will be saved. Salvation isn't a process, but a one time event, and those truly in Christ are kept in him (and Hebrews 12:5-7 promises God's chastening and correction for true children of God).



How do you know?


How do I know that Jesus will tell many professing Christians to depart from Him because he never knew them? Is that what you're asking?
No. How do you know that what you believe is true?
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lobopride
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In reply to Zobel • 10:05p, 7/25/24
Zobel said:
Of course there is: none of us know, because only One is the judge. And so, we say Lord have mercy. Simple.


I think we can "know". That's the whole purpose of 1 John.

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."
1 John 5:13 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.13.ESV
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Zobel
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In reply to lobopride • 10:20p, 7/25/24
AG
Yes. And people who know can fall away. Thats what St Paul is warning against in Hebrews.

Do you sin? St John says that means you are of the devil. I am a very great sinner, but God is merciful. So I ask for mercy and forgiveness.
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Jim Hogg is angry
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In reply to Zobel • 10:35p, 7/25/24
AG
Zobel said:
Yes. And people who know can fall away. Thats what St Paul is warning against in Hebrews.

Do you sin? St John says that means you are of the devil. I am a very great sinner, but God is merciful. So I ask for mercy and forgiveness.


Do you lose your salvation each time you sin?
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Zobel
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In reply to Jim Hogg is angry • 11:06p, 7/25/24
AG
Outside the modern Protestant assumptions about salvation that question doesn't really make sense.

Salvation is ontological. It's about becoming.

If you are running a race and turn around and take a step backward, did you lose?
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lobopride
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In reply to Zobel • 7:56a, 7/26/24
This is long. Feel free to not read my reply. These topics are too complex for simple/quick answers.

Once Saved Always Saved? I do not like the term. It is too simplistic to be useful.

What does it mean to be saved? John 3 has the best answers to this question.

John 3:13-15 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

The quick answer to "what is salvation" is eternal life with the Trinity in Heaven for all time. Some might call it eternal Sabbath rest.

I do believe in an "Already and Not Yet" aspect to salvation

Romans 8:28-30 states that And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Some people call those verses the "Golden Chain of Redemption" Notice the past tense. God's predestination, calling, justification, and glorification of His people happens in eternity. It is not something that He will go back on.

I do believe in the surety of salvation for the truly saved. Of course, there are a ton of people who make confessions of faith that are not truly saved. I will come back to that.

The Bible makes salvation a guarantee for the true confessor.

Romans 10:9-10 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Galatians is a great resource on this topic. Paul details how when someone is saved they are "crucified with Christ". That isn't something that can be reversed. Once someone is saved they have Christ living in them.

Galatians 2:19-21 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Not only does the believer get Christ living in him, but he also gets the Holy Spirit sealing him. This is a seal that cannot be broken.

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

You asked "Do you sin"? And of course the answer is yes. All people sin, both saved and unsaved. I thank God for 1 John 1:8-10

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Of course there is an everyday aspect to Christianity for the rest of our lives. It isn't a say a prayer and then live the rest of your lives like a heathen. Works are vitally important; they just don't save a person.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Matthew 24:12-13 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

In closing, the Chrisitan faith is not an easy believism. You can't just say a prayer and walk away living like the Devil for the rest of your life. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15:31 that he "dies daily" in reference to fighting sin, and we must do the same. There is a lot more to this topic that can be put on Texags but I figured I would add this. I have enjoyed this forum because I do not engage with non-Protestants in my daily life, so this allows me to see other points of view.

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Zobel
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In reply to lobopride • 8:10a, 7/26/24
AG
yeah, I also have all of those verses in my bible. But I'm not sure what your point is here.

If merely assenting to a set of intellectual concepts does not save you, then why did you add the second part? Or why the first? Together the two are somewhat incoherent. It kind of reads like, you can't lose your salvation, so what you do doesn't matter, but you also can't just have easy believism, so forget what I said above.

Salvation in the scripture means saved from something. In your opinion, what are we talking about being saved from, exactly?

As a kind of hint - since you mentioned works - what is the only thing the scriptures say we'll be judged by?
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lobopride
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In reply to Zobel • 8:42a, 7/26/24
Zobel said:
yeah, I also have all of those verses in my bible. But I'm not sure what your point is here.

If merely assenting to a set of intellectual concepts does not save you, then why did you add the second part? Or why the first? Together the two are somewhat incoherent. It kind of reads like, you can't lose your salvation, so what you do doesn't matter, but you also can't just have easy believism, so forget what I said above.

Salvation in the scripture means saved from something. In your opinion, what are we talking about being saved from, exactly?

As a kind of hint - since you mentioned works - what is the only thing the scriptures say we'll be judged by?


My whole point is that it isn't a simple question. Of course we are judged by our works. In the end if we are "hidden in Christ" then when we are judged it will be on the basis of Christ's finished work for our salvation, not our own works.
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