SirDippinDots said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Zobel said:

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False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.

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Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.

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Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.

The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.

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So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.

Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.

Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?



Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.

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Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.

You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.

We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.

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I think I was responding when you typed that!

The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.

It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.

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And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.

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Genocide only occurs if the people of Gaza listen to Hamas, who wants them to stay and die.

Israel is showing more restraint than they necessarily need to.

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Or I don't think Israel is doing anything wrong except not providing for the humanitarian crisis they are creating.

My issue remains with the OP and others who call for genocide and forced relocation of anyone not Israeli.

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The Palestinians created this crisis not Israel.

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Netanyahu is on the record saying they prop up Hamas because Palestinian extremists are easier to demonize and demagogue than political movements willing to compromise. His government then encouraged extremist settlers to engage in attacks against Palestinians on the West Bank, forcing the IDF to shift troops out of the southern border. Something like 80% of Israelis blame Netanyahu for this attack and 60% say he should resign the second the war is over.

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-767880

Hamas Disappointed Liberals Don't Believe They Massacred Jews After They Went To All The Trouble To Livestream It https://t.co/iFkauCOBwM

— The Babylon Bee (@TheBabylonBee) October 14, 2023

SirDippinDots said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Zobel said:

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False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.

---

Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.

---

Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.

The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.

---

So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.

Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.

Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?



Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.

---

Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.

You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.

We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.

---

I think I was responding when you typed that!

The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.

It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.

---

And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.

---

Genocide only occurs if the people of Gaza listen to Hamas, who wants them to stay and die.

Israel is showing more restraint than they necessarily need to.

---

Or I don't think Israel is doing anything wrong except not providing for the humanitarian crisis they are creating.

My issue remains with the OP and others who call for genocide and forced relocation of anyone not Israeli.

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The Palestinians created this crisis not Israel.

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When you cut off the power and water to millions of people, you created a crisis.

Pro Sandy said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Zobel said:

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False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.

---

Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.

---

Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.

The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.

---

So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.

Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.

Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?



Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.

---

Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.

You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.

We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.

---

I think I was responding when you typed that!

The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.

It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.

---

And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.

---

Genocide only occurs if the people of Gaza listen to Hamas, who wants them to stay and die.

Israel is showing more restraint than they necessarily need to.

---

Or I don't think Israel is doing anything wrong except not providing for the humanitarian crisis they are creating.

My issue remains with the OP and others who call for genocide and forced relocation of anyone not Israeli.

---

The Palestinians created this crisis not Israel.

---

When you cut off the power and water to millions of people, you created a crisis.

---

Are you from Gaza?

Maybe Hamas should not have killed over a thousand people just a few days ago, raped women, beheaded babies, and taken hostages. Maybe the elected government of the Palestinians should release the hostages.

Your view on this is warped and evil.

SirDippinDots said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Zobel said:

---

False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.

---

Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.

---

Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.

The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.

---

So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.

Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.

Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?



Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.

---

Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.

You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.

We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.

---

I think I was responding when you typed that!

The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.

It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.

---

And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.

---

Genocide only occurs if the people of Gaza listen to Hamas, who wants them to stay and die.

Israel is showing more restraint than they necessarily need to.

---

Or I don't think Israel is doing anything wrong except not providing for the humanitarian crisis they are creating.

My issue remains with the OP and others who call for genocide and forced relocation of anyone not Israeli.

---

The Palestinians created this crisis not Israel.

---

When you cut off the power and water to millions of people, you created a crisis.

---

Are you from Gaza?

Maybe Hamas should not have killed over a thousand people just a few days ago, raped women, beheaded babies, and taken hostages. Maybe the elected government of the Palestinians should release the hostages.

Your view on this is warped and evil.

---

We've already explained why connecting every Palestinian in Gaza with what happened is illogical and immoral. At this point the only conclusion I can draw is that you want them all dead for the crime of being Arab Muslims in Gaza. I've got a fairly firm idea on which approach is warped and evil.

SirDippinDots said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Pro Sandy said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Zobel said:

---

False dichotomy. There are more options that do nothing and ethnic cleansing. And between the two, do nothing is better than active immorality.

---

Israel has already tried "doing nothing", and it didn't work.

---

Israel didn't do nothing, they've had Gaza under continuous blockades since 2007, resulting in 50 percent of the population of Gaza being unemployed, 65 percent living below the poverty line, and only 17,000 of 2.3 million people are allowed to seek work in Israel.

The open air prison solution for Gaza hasn't worked at keeping Israel safe.

---

So we aren't going to mention that Egypt has also blockaded Gaza since Hamas took over, and at this moment refuses to accept Palestinians from Gaza.

Maybe we should consider why it's not just the Jews, but other Muslims who want nothing to do with Gaza.

Or maybe we ask why it's an open air prison...Maybe wonder what happened to the water pipes that were installed?



Gaza is in this situation because it chose Hamas. You want Gaza to improve, Hamas and it's supporters need to be removed from the field.

---

Egypt blockade is mentioned! Read the posts before yours.

You are right on a lot of those things. And it shows that the OPs desire to just relocate people and fence them in won't work. Not only is it immoral to have forced relocation of a people, it doesn't provide Israel with security.

We haven't had a good attempt at peace in over 20 years. Arafat ruined the peace attempts and things have only gotten worse on both sides at an attempt for peace. It isn't coming soon even with the needed destruction of Hamas. But forcing everyone in Gaza to leave won't give Israel security either.

---

I think I was responding when you typed that!

The problem is, that if you want peace, both sides have to want it, and the problem is that the ruling party of Gaza does not want it. You can't give them money because it goes to missiles. You can't give them infrastructure because it goes to missiles. Peace in Gaza is really not possible, and that's what both Egypt and Israel realized 20 years ago.

It may mean Israel has to do a lt more than they historically might have, but there aren't a lot of viable options.

---

And genocide or force relocation of all Palestinians won't provide peace either. Will likely only increase the threat as outside countries or terrorist organizations will get involved.

---

Genocide only occurs if the people of Gaza listen to Hamas, who wants them to stay and die.

Israel is showing more restraint than they necessarily need to.

---

Or I don't think Israel is doing anything wrong except not providing for the humanitarian crisis they are creating.

My issue remains with the OP and others who call for genocide and forced relocation of anyone not Israeli.

---

The Palestinians created this crisis not Israel.

---

When you cut off the power and water to millions of people, you created a crisis.

---

Are you from Gaza?

Maybe Hamas should not have killed over a thousand people just a few days ago, raped women, beheaded babies, and taken hostages. Maybe the elected government of the Palestinians should release the hostages.

Your view on this is warped and evil.

---

Hamas is evil and I support their total destruction.

Gaza is still filled with millions of people who are not Hamas. Cuttinf off critical infrastructure may be a military necessity, doing so though you are creating a humanitarian crisis that you must also address.

We poured billions into Afghanistan for infrastructure that we destroyed as part of our campaign against the evil of al Qaeda.

When you're at war with someone, you don't give them aid like that. You do what is necessary to win the war.

We've already discussed that the lack of power and water falls directly at the feet of Hamas, who is also the ruling political party. They've had 20 years to govern Gaza, and they took every dollar and infrastructure given and put it into missiles to attack Israel.

To expect Israel to provide that while waging a war is not reasonable.

Is it sad and awful, absolutely, but the fault does not lie with Israel here. It lies with Hamas. It lies with the international community that continues to prop up a terror organization who took advantage it.

Don't be surprised then when world opinion starts to turn against Israel because of this humanitarian crisis. The world will give them a few weeks, but after that this crisis caused by the complete cutting of all infrastructure will lead to world opinion not supporting continued military operations.

If Israel allows for the international community to bring in humanitarian aid in the coming days into southern Gaza, it'll make a big difference.

Best thing Israel could do is establish a civilian safe zone in southern Gaza near the shore, and bring in western aid distributed by Israeli soldiers with videos of Israeli medics saving injured Palestinian children. A multilevel effort to starve Hamas of moral, physical and financial assets is needed right now.

Pro Sandy said:

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Don't be surprised then when world opinion starts to turn against Israel because of this humanitarian crisis. The world will give them a few weeks, but after that this crisis caused by the complete cutting of all infrastructure will lead to world opinion not supporting continued military operations.

If Israel allows for the international community to bring in humanitarian aid in the coming days into southern Gaza, it'll make a big difference.

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Hamas is counting on the world to do just that.

Hamas understands the West a lot better than we understand Hamas.

Why do you think they are blockading their own citizens? They want Gaza to suffer. The want the West to turn on Israel. It's part of their plan.

Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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If only Hamas and Gaza had 20 years and millions of dollars to end their reliance on Israel for these vital resources...

BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

"If someone wants to do a genocide, I'm fine with it and we'll just call it God's will"

Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

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You're grasping for straws on this one.

If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:

1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys

Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?

AgLiving06 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

---

Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

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You're grasping for straws on this one.

If there is anybody violating the Fourth geneva Conventions, it's Hamas, who is:

1. Hiding military equipment in civilian buildings.
2. Using civilians as shields (including jewish babys

Israel choosing not to continue to provide free aid to Gaza is not a violation. In fact, the right question you should be asking is why has Hamas done nothing to improve infrastructure in 20 years?

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Oh, I didn't use any of that as an attack on what Israel is doing, but addressing the question about civilians.

If Israel doesn't allow foreign aid to come in, world opinion will turn. That doesn't need Geneva Convention, that's just the way world opinion works.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Since when does anyone have an obligation to provide services to a city they're at war with?

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Fourth Geneva Convention speaks of protecting civilians. Can't target civilian infrastructure unless absolute military objective, can't collectively punish people, and can't forcibly evict entire populations. All solutions that have been proposed here.

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So then, do you believe that the US and UK committed war crimes during WW2?

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If you think our hands were clean in that war just because we had the more moral cause, I have some news to share about how complicated the world is.

Winston Churchill is not the arbiter of morality, nor is precedent.

You can look to history to find any action you like. If precedent is all you need, any manner of evil is open to you.

Thought you weren't supporting genocide?

Repent, dude.