M1Buckeye said:

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I've provided quite a bit of scripture that demonstrates that ALL people will eventually be with God. In response I get a lot of opinions usually devoid of any scripture. The reality is that most people have it ingrained into their brains that Jesus tortures people forever. No amount of scripture or logic will EVER convince them otherwise. That's ok.

All we really need is to love God, obey him, and love one another. That's it.

Doctrinal discussion is fun but it doesn't really matter in the big picture.

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I haven't used scripture because I still don't understand how you're using it. Can you show me how you can come to a conclusion that Heaven or the New Earth and our place in it is eternal without using the exact same terminology that suggests hell is eternal? If you can do that, then I'll start responding with scripture.

Fact of the matter is that many men prior to the canon of scripture was formalized disagreed with you. Several of these men learned directly from the apostles themselves. When you say scripture is clear, yet disagree with men in the first century, I doubt your claims. You seem to put this interpretation at an infallible level on par with the pope/magisterium that you would reject.

I will continue to pray for all to be saved. I would love it if everyone was saved. But to speak with such certainty that there is no such thing as eternal damnation is not a good idea.

If God sends people to eternal torture then it's true that Jesus saves us from God.

That's insane to me but that's apparently the core belief of mainstream Christians.

your theology is all wonky.

Jesus is God. He is also the Judge.

"All power in heaven and on earth is given to me."
"For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son"

"He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead."
"He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed."

He tells us about this judgment. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


So if the first eternal is not eternal, how do you handle the second eternal?

That's a poor translation of Matthew 25:46. Here is the correct translation:

Matthew 25:46
Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

It doesn't matter what the word is, it's the same word both times. So is life not eternal?
And your translation is bunk, for the record.

Zobel said:

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It doesn't matter what the word is, it's the same word both times. So is life not eternal?
And your translation is bunk, for the record.

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Ok brother. Thanks for your perspective and may God bless you!

Interesting
https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/matthew-25-46/6179

And another view

https://biblehub.com/matthew/25-46.htm

It's not age-during. It's age-like if anything. But the same word is used to describe God in Romans 16:26. So again, if it doesn't mean eternal for the lake of fire, does it not mean eternal for those going to life? Does the life of the next age end? Does it not mean eternal for God? Does the redemption gained by Christ for us have an end? Same word in Hebrews 9:12.

Zobel said:

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It's not age-during.

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I encourage you to do your own research on Google, YouTube, etc., on the Greek words "ainios" and "aion". I'll share a YouTube video that's about 15 minutes long and discusses this topic.

I am an armchair amateur Greek student and one of my best friends is a bona fide Greek scholar with an Ivy League classics PhD, so, nah. Sometimes words mean what they say. You have to be really careful with minority view etymological arguments.

I also think it's odd that you trust contemporary people to interpret Ancient Greek for your but reject out of hand the interpretation of contemporary and near contemporary church fathers who spoke Greek as their native tongue.

And you have ducked the question of consistency twice now.

Here are scriptures that reference "age" and "ages". As I said, God works on us through ages,

Mathew 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Hebrews 9:26 esv
for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Corinthians 3:18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become "fools" so that you may become wise.

Luke 18:30 ESV: Who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Luke 20:34
Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage.

age is not the same as the word used for eternal / age long. One is a noun and the other is an adjective.

Can you please answer my question about consistent interpretation of the exact same word both within that one verse and in other verses?

Zobel said:

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I am an armchair amateur Greek student and one of my best friends is a bona fide Greek scholar with an Ivy League classics PhD, so, nah. Sometimes words mean what they say. You have to be really careful with minority view etymological arguments.

I also think it's odd that you trust contemporary people to interpret Ancient Greek for your but reject out of hand the interpretation of contemporary and near contemporary church fathers who spoke Greek as their native tongue.

And you have sucked the question of consistency twice now.

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The Bible translations that you use contradict themselves. One verse says that some people will be sent to "eternal" punishment while another verse that Jesus saves ALL people or that God will be "all in ALL".

Zobel said:

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age is not the same as the word used for eternal / age long. One is a noun and the other is an adjective.

Can you please answer my question about consistent interpretation of the exact same word both within that one verse and in other verses?

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I did answer you. I provided you with the proper translations using Young's Literal Translation. You rejected their translation. I've explained to you and just now shared a number of verses wherein Jesus and others talk about "this age" or "the age to come", etc.

You are avoiding the question. Either answer it or I suppose the conversation is done?

No you did not. You did not address how the same word that you are saying has an end for punishment is used to describe the life in Christ, or the salvation offered by Christ in Hebrews, or God Himself in Romans. And this is just a quick review. Can you please pick one verse and explain ?

M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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He's advocating for universalism. All in hell will repent eventually

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Actually I'm just sharing what the original scriptures told us.

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You're sharing your interpretation of scriptures. Many others have come to different conclusions, right from the start.

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How do you interpret this? Does this say that Jesus is the savior of ALL people?

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

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This is a great verse if you want to talk about potential flaws with Calvinism, but it's not an issue for most of the historic Church.

I'm part of Lutheranism, and we agree with the concept of universal justification or atonement...that is, Jesus died for all (John 3:16).

However, we recognize that man, in their sinful nature, can choose to reject that offering, and in doing so, they exclude themselves from the Church. Not because God willed it but because man chose it.

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Jesus will rule the kingdom until ALL mankind has gone to him. Thereafter he will give the kingdom to God and we ALL will live with God on the new Earth.

Do you believe this?

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No. I think many men willingly choose to separate from God.

I actually think something such as universalism raises significant concerns about what kind of God we are worshipping.

I'll edit to add that during the Reformation, this was a point of unity between Lutherans and Roman Catholics. This was the Confutations response to the the Lutheran condemnation of Anabaptist.

"Therefore they (Lutherans) justly condemn here the Anabaptists, who think there will be an end of punishments to condemned men and devils"

Confutation Article 17

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You do realize they killed and persecuted anabaptists because of that?

And you are saying that men can resist God? Even after death?

Scripture says that God desires all men to be saved. So free will of man trumps God's desire?

Not sure I can go there.

I wonder what kind of God we are serving if He does not get His will. He is omnipotent, correct?

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I'm saying that the Western Church has historically taught that seperation from God is eternal (see the Athanasian Creed for example).

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That's true, but they're wrong. I challenge anyone to show me the scriptures that claim that people suffer eternal torment.

By the way, I don't accept teachings that have been developed AFTER the original scriptures were written.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Whatever we need to know to be COMPLETE is in the original scriptures later compiled by the early church. Whatever came after that is NOT "breathed out by God".

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So a couple thoughts.

First, it's never good to attempt to "proof text" when we can all see the context.

Here's a the previous verses you left out:

"10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystrawhich persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

So your "proof text" is only applicable to those who "desire to live a godly life in Jesus Christ." It is not shown to be applicable for those "evil people who will go from bad to worse." We see nothing in this text that claims they will eventually convert.

Second, if you're going to state a claim that has withstood over 1,000 years of scrutiny and review from some of the brightest people to ever walk this planet, you're going to need more than this.

Zobel said:

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No you did not. You did not address how the same word that you are saying has an end for punishment is used to describe the life in Christ, or the salvation offered by Christ in Hebrews, or God Himself in Romans. And this is just a quick review. Can you please pick one verse and explain ?

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Thank you. I was in a rush and didn't think I did it Justice. This is my primary question. Prior to tossing scripture verses back and forth, I need to understand why one means eternal and the other doesn't. Or is life with Christ in the New Earth not eternal? It completely changes the way I approach the thesis.

Can we all agree that spam callers are goats?

I kid

M1Buckeye said:

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If God sends people to eternal torture then it's true that Jesus saves us from God.

That's insane to me but that's apparently the core belief of mainstream Christians.

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I still don't understand "Jesus saving us from God". God gives us free will to choose our own path. Eve wasn't forced to "eat the apple". That was her choice. Adam could have stepped in, but he didn't. That was his choice. God didn't make man fall, therefore we don't need saving from Him. We need saving from OUR sinful selves. We decide to become "like God" and He allows us to do so. This results in our damnation, not Him deciding to punish us for not being "good enough".

If you believe God "sends us" to hell, then I can see your difficulty. If you believe God calls balls and strikes as He sees them in His divine mercy, then He isn't sending us anywhere.

This is a sensitive topic for me because I have several family members who have rejected the Christian teaching in which they were raised. I've have heard directly from their mouths that "If God loves me then (insert understanding of sin here)". I would absolutely LOVE for them to repent. I pray for it. But I also fail to see how that level of direct opposition to Christian teaching, in full ACKNOWLEDGMENT of Christian teaching can result in a heavenly ending outside of God overcoming our own free will. My entire argument rests on true free will, so if I'm wrong in that, I'm willing to reevaluate my entire position.

As I said the entire theological premise is confused.

For starters, Jesus is God.

If he means Jesus saves us from the Father, that's something like Marcionism. It also confuses the Trinity in that as the Trinity has one essence and nature they also have one energy, as St John of Damascus says. Pitting them against one another creates a duality when there is a monad, and or confusion of the symphonia between the divine persons where there is a triad.

Third, the scriptures are clear that the Son is given the authority to Judge, and that He is also the express image of the Father. So there can be no saving of one from the other or vice versa.

I realize that he is kind of setting up a strawman to argue against, but it's a strange place to start.

I'll try to get back to you gents with some good material. In the meantime, none of us should ever be offended or angry with a fellow brother or sister. We're not all going to agree on how everything works and that's ok. What's important is that we love God, follow his commandments (or at least try) and LOVE one another. That's it.

Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

how about instead of good material, you just answer the question?

Zobel said:

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how about instead of good material, you just answer the question?

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Serious question. Are you interested in sharing and learning about God or are you just trying to win an argument?

M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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He's advocating for universalism. All in hell will repent eventually

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Actually I'm just sharing what the original scriptures told us.

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You're sharing your interpretation of scriptures. Many others have come to different conclusions, right from the start.

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How do you interpret this? Does this say that Jesus is the savior of ALL people?

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

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He is the Savior of all people, but not all people choose to be saved. If you reject Him as Savior and turn away from Him thinking you do not need a Savior, He will not acknowledge you when judgement comes. Those who turn to Him in repentance, ask for forgiveness from their broken, sinful nature and repent of their ways in order to live for Him and love others are saved through his sacrificial death on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice of Love from our God and Father, who desires to live with us eternally. All the other things you seem to be implying are false. Repent and be saved, and go and sin no more.

Jesus' ascension to His throne at the right hand of God showed us that He alone is worthy to stand before God. The Holy Spirit convinces us to rely on Jesus' righteousness alone. Finally, the Holy Spirit reveals that Jesus alone is judge because He has declared the ruler of this world condemned. The Holy Spirit takes all that Jesus has won and declares it a victory for us.

I used a winky face. It was a joke.

The question for me is very simple.

Can man's free will trump God's desire to save every man? And not just in this life but in the life to come.

I do not know the answer and am okay with that. My prayer is that everyone will be saved by God's mercy.

The problem I have is I think you've crafted a question that is built on assumptions that lead to false binary.

Your essential clam is that God desires that all mankind to be saved unconditionally. That is to say that man's existence is meaningless.

Adam and Eve's fall into sin don't matter because they were going to be saved anyways.
The 10 commandments given to the Jews doesn't matter because they were going to be saved anyways
Even the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus doesn't matter in a meaningful sense because God was going to save everyone anyways.

At its logical conclusion, your statement leads us to say there's no reason to follow God because He will save us in the end because He wills it.

So I would rephrase your statement to say that

God wills for all man to be saved, but man has the freedom to reject that offer.

AgLiving06 said:

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The problem I have is I think you've crafted a question that is built on assumptions that lead to false binary.

Your essential clam is that God desires that all mankind to be saved unconditionally. That is to say that man's existence is meaningless.

Adam and Eve's fall into sin don't matter because they were going to be saved anyways.
The 10 commandments given to the Jews doesn't matter because they were going to be saved anyways
Even the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus doesn't matter in a meaningful sense because God was going to save everyone anyways.

At its logical conclusion, your statement leads us to say there's no reason to follow God because He will save us in the end because He wills it.

So I would rephrase your statement to say that

God wills for all man to be saved, but man has the freedom to reject that offer.

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So you are saying man's free will trumps God's desires. And I am fine with that although I am not that sure.

And there is a huge reason to follow God even without the promise of eternal life. It gives you the most abundant, joyful, fulfilling life. I do not think stealing, killing, committing adultery, coveting, etc. brings happiness.

I think sometimes we miss that truth.

i think it is probably closer to the mark to say that God desires multiple good things. one is salvation, the other is man's freedom.

I'm saying that God's desire does not equate to what He wills.
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To your next part, I think we have to think about why we find abundant joy in not stealing, adultery, coveting, etc.

God in His love has given us the law written onto our hearts so that He is constantly drawing us toward Him. That's why I say that we don't "choose" God, we can only reject Him.

This is also why I just can't find Scriptural support for saying that just because God desires all of man's salvation, He therefore wills it unconditionally.

It really just feels like some hybrid of universal calvinism to make this claim that we are all elect, we may just not realize it in this lifetime.

Zobel said:

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i think it is probably closer to the mark to say that God desires multiple good things. one is salvation, the other is man's freedom.

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Agree. But it seems that somehow a lot of Christians believe they are missing out on joy in this life by following Christ. I find just the opposite.

AgLiving06 said:

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I'm saying that God's desire does not equate to what He wills.
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To your next part, I think we have to think about why we find abundant joy in not stealing, adultery, coveting, etc.

God in His love has given us the law written onto our hearts so that He is constantly drawing us toward Him. That's why I say that we don't "choose" God, we can only reject Him.

This is also why I just can't find Scriptural support for saying that just because God desires all of man's salvation, He therefore wills it unconditionally.

It really just feels like some hybrid of universal calvinism to make this claim that we are all elect, we may just not realize it in this lifetime.

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Fair enough.

I think about Jonah. He did everything to resist God but God's desire won in the end.

I'm not sure I would agree that Jonah is a good example for this discussion.

First, we know that until the end Jonah was angry and wished to die out of anger. Further God didn't just force Jonah to do it...He just made it really inconvenient to ignore Him and we absolutely see Jonah turn away from God multiple times.

But more importantly, Nineveh does repent and stopped turning away from God.

Jonah 3:6-10

"6 The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. 7 And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, 8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. 9 Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish."
10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it. "

So if the argument is that God utilizes multiple avenues to try and keep everybody in the faith, then yes and amen...but from Jonah we see that God doesn't just "save" the unrepentant. They come back to God and are saved.