M1Buckeye said:

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Eventually ALL will be in Christ and then God will be in ALL!

Even Satan and the demons will be saved and transformed.

After all, Satan is only doing what he was created to do. In the end, Jesus will purify Satan, demons, and fallen angels.

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You'll have to show me where scripture agrees with this thought.

Revelation 14:10 esv
he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Questions. What does John (the author) mean by "tormented" and what is the symbolic purpose of using sulfur?

And why is Jesus and the holy angels there to see it?

Torment is an ancient word that means "to test" as in testing the purity of things such as gold and silver. It can also mean a punitive act. As for sulfur, it is a purifying agent that helps to separate impurities from various metals.

What Revelation 14:10 is actually describing is the purification and cleansing of Satan. Jesus and the angels are there supervising the process.

Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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Catag94 said:

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God is completely just. Sin requires penalty. We are sinners. Jesus paid our penalties.

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This idea of sin "requiring" penalty never made sense. Who requires anything of God?

The whole idea seems to come from a false dichotomy between mercy and justice, as if there are parts of God which are opposing. Never mind the idea that there is some kind of thing higher than God which imposes on Him or limits Him.

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Nope, being Holy, Righteous, and Just, He, if you choose to think of it this way, imposes the limit. But, we must remember that His ways and thoughts are not our ways and thoughts. So, I take him at his word and not what makes sense to people.

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This is just an appeal to unknowable nature of God, which is fundamentally apophatic. You can't use an apophatic statement to assert something.

There is no limit on God, and nothing compels Him to punish sin. The entire idea is foreign to the scriptures.

Salvation is not juridical or at a minimum it is not merely juridical. It is ontological, and incarnational.

So, sin doesn't require atonement you're saying?

I think there is a fundamental tension between love and free will. We should hope and pray for the salvation of all, but it also seems clear that not all men desire salvation. God wants the salvation of all.

You should perhaps read St Maximos the confessor. He has a cosmology and eschatology that I think you would find edifying in his book the Ambigua. Maybe ambiguum 7 is the one, or 8. I forget which. Edit: it's Ambiguum 42

Check this out
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/04/02/st-maximus-the-universalist/

Catag94 said:

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So, sin doesn't require atonement you're saying?

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Atonement is not punishment. Atonement literally means covering. Blood is used to cover sin, to neutralize it. Life stuff cleanses death stuff. There are no animals punished in sin offerings and no sins put on any animals that are sacrificed. Christs blood atones for our sin, it cancels it. St Ephraim the Syrian said - paraphrasing - all of the sins of the world are a handful of dust in the sea of God's love. Sin is consumed by this love.

This is exactly the image we see of all uncleanness - the product of sin - when it encounters God in the person of Christ. He is not made unclean, but He makes clean. And ultimately this is the witness of the resurrection - death, the fruit of sin, is destroyed by His death. Death took a body and met God face to face. And death became life.

In the day of atonement blood is used to cleanse the residue of sin, and the sins on the goat are driven out of the camp into the world. In the fulfillment of this, on the cross, Christ is both goats. He takes the sin away and His blood purifies it.

So a better way to say what I (intended) is that we need God's gift of atonement to be saved from condemnation. While it is available to all, not all will accept it.

Yeah I just am triggered by the whole sin requires penalty thing. I don't think it is scriptural, or correct.

Consequence and penalty aren't the same thing.

Catag94 said:

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So a better way to say what I (intended) is that we need God's gift of atonement to be saved from condemnation. While it is available to all, not all will accept it.

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Romans 5:18

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

1 Timothy 2:3-4

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

My question is, can God be thwarted from getting what He wants?

I think there is a tension between God's love and man's freedom that will remain irreconcilable on this side of things.

Zobel said:

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I think there is a tension between God's love and man's freedom that will remain irreconcilable on this side of things.

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Agreed.
Many will reject God's love. Many will chose sin, and the wages of sin is death.

"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

So for those believing that Satan and the fallen angels will be redeemed, do you also believe in the possibility of future rebellions in the age to come? Do you pray for Satan's future repentance? (that just sounds blasphemous even typing it).

i've never struggled up that far. my personal struggle is over the salvation of Judas.

No, nothing and nobody can thwart God's will from coming to fruition.

Doinked Field Goal said:

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So for those believing that Satan and the fallen angels will be redeemed, do you also believe in the possibility of future rebellions in the age to come? Do you pray for Satan's future repentance? (that just sounds blasphemous even typing it).

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As 1 Corinthians 15 says, in the very end and then into eternity, God will be in ALL! No, I don't anticipate a "rebellion".

it is also God's will for man to be free.

Zobel said:

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it is also God's will for man to be free.

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Agree. But then you come down to my question.

Can a man's free will trump God's desire that all men be saved? And not just in this life but for eternity.

CS Lewis thought some people will reject God for eternity.

I think God wins.

i don't think there is an answer. there is only hope.

the way St Maximos puts it is kind of like a game with an inevitable outcome but also no game clock. it cannot end in any other way, but there also cannot be coercion.

so we must pray for the salvation of all.

M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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He's advocating for universalism. All in hell will repent eventually

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Actually I'm just sharing what the original scriptures told us.

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You're sharing your interpretation of scriptures. Many others have come to different conclusions, right from the start.

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How do you interpret this? Does this say that Jesus is the savior of ALL people?

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

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This is a great verse if you want to talk about potential flaws with Calvinism, but it's not an issue for most of the historic Church.

I'm part of Lutheranism, and we agree with the concept of universal justification or atonement...that is, Jesus died for all (John 3:16).

However, we recognize that man, in their sinful nature, can choose to reject that offering, and in doing so, they exclude themselves from the Church. Not because God willed it but because man chose it.

Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

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Thanks. Really enjoyed reading that.

Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

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Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

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Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

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Everybody dies because of original sin.

That does not mean eternal punishment.

And Scripture pretty clearly states that all people will be raised from the dead for judgement.

The question is do people have the ability to reject God who desires salvation for all men?

Regarding that, all will be raised on the last day.

"An hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

That does not speak to the ultimate end of human persons. I think here we must stand mute and obedient to our God who loves Mankind.

dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

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Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

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Everybody dies because of original sin.

That does not mean eternal punishment.

And Scripture pretty clearly states that all people will be raised from the dead for judgement.

The question is do people have the ability to reject God who desires salvation for all men?

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Yes and Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (and in Mat 25) pretty well indicates many will be in the crowd to the right (Life) and to the left (eternal fire).

Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

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Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

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Everybody dies because of original sin.

That does not mean eternal punishment.

And Scripture pretty clearly states that all people will be raised from the dead for judgement.

The question is do people have the ability to reject God who desires salvation for all men?

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Yes and Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (and in Mat 25) pretty well indicates many will be in the crowd to the right (Life) and to the left (eternal fire).

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Couple of things. The Greek word used in the sheep and goats parable is kolasin. That is used primarily as a description for rehabilitative correction and actually originally meant pruning.

There is another Greek word for retributive punishment, timoria.

Also the word for eternity usually is translated as "of an age" and not eternal.

It is fascinating to me that Jesus mentioned no sinner's prayer, no baptism, etc. and only judged based on the good or evil the nations had done.

How this verse became what it has in the Western church is almost completely due to Augustine.

I'll try to be more thorough later, but the primary problem here is that Greek word for "of an age" is used to describe heaven as well.

Second quick response is that several church father were talking about eternal torment prior to Christianity's 100th birthday.

dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

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Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

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Everybody dies because of original sin.

That does not mean eternal punishment.

And Scripture pretty clearly states that all people will be raised from the dead for judgement.

The question is do people have the ability to reject God who desires salvation for all men?

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Yes and Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (and in Mat 25) pretty well indicates many will be in the crowd to the right (Life) and to the left (eternal fire).

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Couple of things. The Greek word used in the sheep and goats parable is kolasin. That is used primarily as a description for rehabilitative correction and actually originally meant pruning.

There is another Greek word for retributive punishment, timoria.

Also the word for eternity usually is translated as "of an age" and not eternal.

It is fascinating to me that Jesus mentioned no sinner's prayer, no baptism, etc. and only judged based on the good or evil the nations had done.

How this verse became what it has in the Western church is almost completely due to Augustine.

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Does this logic teach that Satan's punishment will be rehabilitative in nature and that he too will be saved in the end?

Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

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Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

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Everybody dies because of original sin.

That does not mean eternal punishment.

And Scripture pretty clearly states that all people will be raised from the dead for judgement.

The question is do people have the ability to reject God who desires salvation for all men?

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Yes and Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (and in Mat 25) pretty well indicates many will be in the crowd to the right (Life) and to the left (eternal fire).

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Couple of things. The Greek word used in the sheep and goats parable is kolasin. That is used primarily as a description for rehabilitative correction and actually originally meant pruning.

There is another Greek word for retributive punishment, timoria.

Also the word for eternity usually is translated as "of an age" and not eternal.

It is fascinating to me that Jesus mentioned no sinner's prayer, no baptism, etc. and only judged based on the good or evil the nations had done.

How this verse became what it has in the Western church is almost completely due to Augustine.

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Does this logic teach that Satan's punishment will be rehabilitative in nature and that he too will be saved in the end?

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Way above my knowledge.

But Scripture tells us God is love and will win in the end.

Redemption of all things, even Satan, would be the ultimate victory.

The Banned said:

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I'll try to be more thorough later, but the primary problem here is that Greek word for "of an age" is used to describe heaven as well.

Second quick response is that several church father were talking about eternal torment prior to Christianity's 100th birthday.

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Fair enough, but there were also always church fathers who believed in universal reconciliation.

And I think any fair look reveals that the concept of eternal conscious torment hell was greatly bolstered by Augustine.

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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I'll try to be more thorough later, but the primary problem here is that Greek word for "of an age" is used to describe heaven as well.

Second quick response is that several church father were talking about eternal torment prior to Christianity's 100th birthday.

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Fair enough, but there were also always church fathers who believed in universal reconciliation.

And I think any fair look reveals that the concept of eternal conscious torment hell was greatly bolstered by Augustine.

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And now we revert to authority. Honestly, being a Protestant wasn't that stressful during my time spent, but looking back it really should have been. For all intents and purposes, Jesus left us all in an apprehensive confusion if sola scriptura is real or if the church has no authority to interpret it. The myriads of theologies that have exploded onto the scene since Luther are mind boggling to work through. If the printing press existed during Arius's day, we likely wouldn't even believe that Jesus was truly God and truly man.

Universalism/universal reference vs ECT can have MASSIVE impacts on our lives, our behaviors, our apologetics and our missionary work. It really should not be undertaken lightly and, while yes some of the fathers (not the majority) seemed to have leaned towards universalism, we have an authority structure that has stated this to be wrong. Just like they did with dozens of others heresies/incorrect theological opinions. Without that we're all just guessing here, and we're guessing over something that can potentially lead people very far astray.

Enter in blackout theory again. Either the church has been very wrong for a very long time or modern interpretations are wrong. I personally don't see much of a middle ground, but I'm happy to be proven wrong on that.

the condemnations of universalism by the church - at least the pre-schism councils - are pretty narrowly defined. i think there are ways to be open to universal salvation, as a hope, and be well within the bounds of small-o orthodoxy. what puts you outside of orthodoxy, i think, is a definite affirmation that all will be saved. i don't think we know that, but we can and should hope and pray for it.

Zobel said:

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the condemnations of universalism by the church - at least the pre-schism councils - are pretty narrowly defined. i think there are ways to be open to universal salvation, as a hope, and be well within the bounds of small-o orthodoxy. what puts you outside of orthodoxy, i think, is a definite affirmation that all will be saved. i don't think we know that, but we can and should hope and pray for it.

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Agree and that is my belief.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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I'll try to be more thorough later, but the primary problem here is that Greek word for "of an age" is used to describe heaven as well.

Second quick response is that several church father were talking about eternal torment prior to Christianity's 100th birthday.

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Fair enough, but there were also always church fathers who believed in universal reconciliation.

And I think any fair look reveals that the concept of eternal conscious torment hell was greatly bolstered by Augustine.

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And now we revert to authority. Honestly, being a Protestant wasn't that stressful during my time spent, but looking back it really should have been. For all intents and purposes, Jesus left us all in an apprehensive confusion if sola scriptura is real or if the church has no authority to interpret it. The myriads of theologies that have exploded onto the scene since Luther are mind boggling to work through. If the printing press existed during Arius's day, we likely wouldn't even believe that Jesus was truly God and truly man.

Universalism/universal reference vs ECT can have MASSIVE impacts on our lives, our behaviors, our apologetics and our missionary work. It really should not be undertaken lightly and, while yes some of the fathers (not the majority) seemed to have leaned towards universalism, we have an authority structure that has stated this to be wrong. Just like they did with dozens of others heresies/incorrect theological opinions. Without that we're all just guessing here, and we're guessing over something that can potentially lead people very far astray.

Enter in blackout theory again. Either the church has been very wrong for a very long time or modern interpretations are wrong. I personally don't see much of a middle ground, but I'm happy to be proven wrong on that.

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First of all, I am not asking you to agree with me.

Like Zobel, I think the hope of universal reconciliation is within the realm of orthodoxy.

And it is interesting that since I became a believer in the hope of universal reconciliation, I have never been more outspoken about my faith.

Never prayed with my patients, now do it daily. Witness to non believers a lot more. Bibles and Christian literature in my office lobby. Much more charitable and active in daily Bible study. 2 weekly Bible study groups. And it is so enjoyable where before it was like a chore.

And much more joy and peace as I feel I have had an actual encounter with Jesus.

i would be careful putting too much on an etymological argument. it can be useful sometimes, but sometimes it can also be misleading.*

but in the simplest way, kolasis means punishment. aristotle made the distinction between kolasis and timoria, as you noted, but that's not universal. you see it used in ancient greek - chasten, punish, a form of reproof, used of divine retribution, to cause to suffer injury. maybe a good image for this is of a soldier in an ancient army being whipped for disciplinary reasons. you could also use this of your children.

so, i think if we don't have a reason to read it differently - that is to say, if we just take it at face value - eternal punishment is a good place to start.


*earlier i used an etymological argument for atonement. this is a unique case because that is a hapax word.. it is a strange word in hebrew and a kind of odd word was used in greek for it (note that when NT authors speak of atonement they do not use the same word as in the septuagint), and a unique word in english was created to translate it as well. literally "at-one-ment" was created because the translators did have an exact word to translate the existing word. so in this case a later understanding of kaphar or kefir verbs, and probably also better understanding and access to ancient greek, gives us a better understanding of the word used scripture itself - to cover, to purge. this by itself isn't particularly powerful but works in concert with the contextual understanding in Leviticus and the NT, as well as contemporary extra-scriptural texts.