Zobel said:

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Catag94 said:

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So, sin doesn't require atonement you're saying?

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Atonement is not punishment. Atonement literally means covering. Blood is used to cover sin, to neutralize it. Life stuff cleanses death stuff. There are no animals punished in sin offerings and no sins put on any animals that are sacrificed. Christs blood atones for our sin, it cancels it. St Ephraim the Syrian said - paraphrasing - all of the sins of the world are a handful of dust in the sea of God's love. Sin is consumed by this love.

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Would this (from Leviticus 16) not qualify as an example of sins being "put on" an animal? (asked conversationally)

"20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall present the live goat. 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness."

sins put on an animal - yes.

sins put on an animal that is sacrificed, no.

Zobel said:

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the condemnations of universalism by the church - at least the pre-schism councils - are pretty narrowly defined. i think there are ways to be open to universal salvation, as a hope, and be well within the bounds of small-o orthodoxy. what puts you outside of orthodoxy, i think, is a definite affirmation that all will be saved. i don't think we know that, but we can and should hope and pray for it.

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A hope or a wish? When we say we have hope in Jesus because we know He is going to save those who follow Him. A hope by definition has to be in something we know to will happen. To say we can have hope that all men are saved seems to run very contrary to the biblical passages describing hell and the people therein.

I think we can wish all men would be saved. It be really nice if that happened. But I don't see anything in the Bible or big T Tradition that shows we can reasonably "hope" that all men would be saved as if that can actually happen. Maybe I'm wrong here and I'm open to seeing the evidence, but my understanding is that either universalism is wrong or the church has been wrong for a very, very long time.

i don't think "hope" implies certainty - at least not in vernacular use. why not split the difference and say desire? God certainly does desire that all will be saved. shouldn't we?

For example - St John Chrysostom says -

Quote:

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Imitate God! If He wills that all men should be saved, there is reason why one should pray for all, if He has willed that all should be saved, be thou willing also; and if you wish it, pray for it, for wishes lead to prayers.

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How would you differentiate the 2 concepts? More specifically - what purpose does the scapegoat and/or its banishment serve vs. sacrifice?

Musing now: Is permanent eviction from community - presumably as a result of the "putting on" of sin - more or less painful than death? Jesus' recital of Psalm 22 at his death seems in some ways worse than the death itself, no?

Tough things to ponder to be sure.

The Banned said:

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Zobel said:

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the condemnations of universalism by the church - at least the pre-schism councils - are pretty narrowly defined. i think there are ways to be open to universal salvation, as a hope, and be well within the bounds of small-o orthodoxy. what puts you outside of orthodoxy, i think, is a definite affirmation that all will be saved. i don't think we know that, but we can and should hope and pray for it.

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A hope or a wish? When we say we have hope in Jesus because we know He is going to save those who follow Him. A hope by definition has to be in something we know to will happen. To say we can have hope that all men are saved seems to run very contrary to the biblical passages describing hell and the people therein.

I think we can wish all men would be saved. It be really nice if that happened. But I don't see anything in the Bible or big T Tradition that shows we can reasonably "hope" that all men would be saved as if that can actually happen. Maybe I'm wrong here and I'm open to seeing the evidence, but my understanding is that either universalism is wrong or the church has been wrong for a very, very long time.

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Curious as to the Biblical passages describing hell and the people there.

The only parable I can think of is the rich man in Hades(not hell) and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.

Thanks.

And there is a difference between the concept of universalism and universal reconciliation. The latter involves corrective punishment.

And since Scripture clearly says that God desires all men to be saved, then you have to believe that God does not get his will and that man's free will can reject God's desires.

Not sure I can believe that.

Wakesurfer817 said:

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How would you differentiate the 2 concepts? More specifically - what purpose does the scapegoat and/or its banishment serve vs. sacrifice?

Musing now: Is permanent eviction from community - presumably as a result of the "putting on" of sin - more or less painful than death? Jesus' recital of Psalm 22 at his death seems in some ways worse than the death itself, no?

Tough things to ponder to be sure.

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Well, one is a sacrifice to God, which has to be pure and blameless. The other is a purge, sending the sins away, back out to Azazel, the demon, where they came from. Return to sender. The idea is this keeps the camp pure, so God can dwell among His people.

But yeah, exile and death are closely related in the OT. Spiritual death, because exile is being away from God. And spiritual death results in physical death.

Christ is both goats, though… and the Passover lamb. So St John the Forerunner's mixed metaphor "the lamb who takes away sin" makes sense.

He takes the sins, and is STILL clean and perfect for sacrifice.

The atonement / covering is blood, life, cleansing sin, death. And so the image of Christ on the cross is the same. He encounters sin and death and cleanses it, He encounters death and destroys it because He is Life. It is beautiful.

Zobel said:

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i would be careful putting too much on an etymological argument. it can be useful sometimes, but sometimes it can also be misleading.*

but in the simplest way, kolasis means punishment. aristotle made the distinction between kolasis and timoria, as you noted, but that's not universal. you see it used in ancient greek - chasten, punish, a form of reproof, used of divine retribution, to cause to suffer injury. maybe a good image for this is of a soldier in an ancient army being whipped for disciplinary reasons. you could also use this of your children.

so, i think if we don't have a reason to read it differently - that is to say, if we just take it at face value - eternal punishment is a good place to start.


*earlier i used an etymological argument for atonement. this is a unique case because that is a hapax word.. it is a strange word in hebrew and a kind of odd word was used in greek for it (note that when NT authors speak of atonement they do not use the same word as in the septuagint), and a unique word in english was created to translate it as well. literally "at-one-ment" was created because the translators did have an exact word to translate the existing word. so in this case a later understanding of kaphar or kefir verbs, and probably also better understanding and access to ancient greek, gives us a better understanding of the word used scripture itself - to cover, to purge. this by itself isn't particularly powerful but works in concert with the contextual understanding in Leviticus and the NT, as well as contemporary extra-scriptural texts.

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Agree with you on the children part and possibly the soldier.

But both of those are for the ultimate good and the will of God which is what I think happens when we are disciplined by God.

Zobel said:

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it is also God's will for man to be free.

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To be free from sin, but not to be free from God, our father and creator.

AgLiving06 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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He's advocating for universalism. All in hell will repent eventually

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Actually I'm just sharing what the original scriptures told us.

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You're sharing your interpretation of scriptures. Many others have come to different conclusions, right from the start.

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How do you interpret this? Does this say that Jesus is the savior of ALL people?

1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

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This is a great verse if you want to talk about potential flaws with Calvinism, but it's not an issue for most of the historic Church.

I'm part of Lutheranism, and we agree with the concept of universal justification or atonement...that is, Jesus died for all (John 3:16).

However, we recognize that man, in their sinful nature, can choose to reject that offering, and in doing so, they exclude themselves from the Church. Not because God willed it but because man chose it.

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Jesus will rule the kingdom until ALL mankind has gone to him. Thereafter he will give the kingdom to God and we ALL will live with God on the new Earth.

Do you believe this?

Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

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Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

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Everybody dies because of original sin.

That does not mean eternal punishment.

And Scripture pretty clearly states that all people will be raised from the dead for judgement.

The question is do people have the ability to reject God who desires salvation for all men?

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Yes and Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (and in Mat 25) pretty well indicates many will be in the crowd to the right (Life) and to the left (eternal fire).

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Couple of things. The Greek word used in the sheep and goats parable is kolasin. That is used primarily as a description for rehabilitative correction and actually originally meant pruning.

There is another Greek word for retributive punishment, timoria.

Also the word for eternity usually is translated as "of an age" and not eternal.

It is fascinating to me that Jesus mentioned no sinner's prayer, no baptism, etc. and only judged based on the good or evil the nations had done.

How this verse became what it has in the Western church is almost completely due to Augustine.

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Does this logic teach that Satan's punishment will be rehabilitative in nature and that he too will be saved in the end?

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Yes, Satan too will be transformed

Revelation 14:10 YLT
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb.

Torment is also defined as a tool for refining. Brimstone is also a refining agent. This verse is describing Satan being refined and with Jesus himself supervising the process.

Zobel said:

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i don't think "hope" implies certainty - at least not in vernacular use. why not split the difference and say desire? God certainly does desire that all will be saved. shouldn't we?

For example - St John Chrysostom says -

Quote:

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Imitate God! If He wills that all men should be saved, there is reason why one should pray for all, if He has willed that all should be saved, be thou willing also; and if you wish it, pray for it, for wishes lead to prayers.

---

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Not how even the saint uses wish, not hope. I agree in the vernacular it may be interchangeable but when Von Bathalzar used the word "hope", he knew what he was doing. He didn't use wish. He didn't use pray. If he did, I'm fully on board. But hope is very different.

I can wish I have a million dollars tomorrow. I can not honestly hope for a million dollars tomorrow because I have no reason to hope for that at all. I haven't entered the lottery. I don't have an inheritance that's coming my way, even if my parents kick the bucket. There is no "hope" to be had there.

So I will gladly join y'all in praying for all men to be saved, but I can't reasonably "hope" for it.

The Banned said:

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Zobel said:

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i don't think "hope" implies certainty - at least not in vernacular use. why not split the difference and say desire? God certainly does desire that all will be saved. shouldn't we?

For example - St John Chrysostom says -

Quote:

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Imitate God! If He wills that all men should be saved, there is reason why one should pray for all, if He has willed that all should be saved, be thou willing also; and if you wish it, pray for it, for wishes lead to prayers.

---

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Not how even the saint uses wish, not hope. I agree in the vernacular it may be interchangeable but when Von Bathalzar used the word "hope", he knew what he was doing. He didn't use wish. He didn't use pray. If he did, I'm fully on board. But hope is very different.

I can wish I have a million dollars tomorrow. I can not honestly hope for a million dollars tomorrow because I have no reason to hope for that at all. I haven't entered the lottery. I don't have an inheritance that's coming my way, even if my parents kick the bucket. There is no "hope" to be had there.

So I will gladly join y'all in praying for all men to be saved, but I can't reasonably "hope" for it.

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You can if you believe the word of God.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever[url=file:///C:/Users/pmm_1/Desktop/UNIVERSAL%20SALVATION%20MARCH%202023.docx#_msocom_1][PM1][/url]

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,', for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself."

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

2 Samuel 14:4 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

M1Buckeye said:

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Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

---

Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

---

Everybody dies because of original sin.

That does not mean eternal punishment.

And Scripture pretty clearly states that all people will be raised from the dead for judgement.

The question is do people have the ability to reject God who desires salvation for all men?

---

Yes and Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (and in Mat 25) pretty well indicates many will be in the crowd to the right (Life) and to the left (eternal fire).

---

Couple of things. The Greek word used in the sheep and goats parable is kolasin. That is used primarily as a description for rehabilitative correction and actually originally meant pruning.

There is another Greek word for retributive punishment, timoria.

Also the word for eternity usually is translated as "of an age" and not eternal.

It is fascinating to me that Jesus mentioned no sinner's prayer, no baptism, etc. and only judged based on the good or evil the nations had done.

How this verse became what it has in the Western church is almost completely due to Augustine.

---

Does this logic teach that Satan's punishment will be rehabilitative in nature and that he too will be saved in the end?

---

Yes, Satan too will be transformed

Revelation 14:10 YLT
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb.

Torment is also defined as a tool for refining. Brimstone is also a refining agent. This verse is describing Satan being refined and with Jesus himself supervising the process.

---

Does it describe an end to this refinement and what follows?

I think hoping for God's will to be done is never unreasonable.

Yes, Lazarus, where he is completely incapable of crossing the divide. We also hear about the torment in general and the word used for eternal there is the same as the word used for eternal heaven, as we discussed earlier.

We'd also diverge here because I do not believe we're restrained to the Bible only. We have tradition as well, but I know that doesn't carry the same weight with you.

Sorry, I often lump those together because the end result is the same, but fair point.

Why don't you believe that God would allow us to ultimately reject Him? It's not His will that we are overcoming. He's just letting us have our own. If He does not give us that opportunity then we have no free will to begin with, and I don't believe that. What's the point of all of this back and forth if He could have just created us to be in Heaven from the beginning with no ability to tell him no?

Zobel said:

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I think hoping for God's will to be done is never unreasonable.

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And I would say that the Bible and Tradition describe God's will to include people ultimately residing in hell. Not because He desires them to be there, but because He allows them to choose a path that leads them there.

I think you are overstating the case, that's all.

There is clear, unambiguous scripture in black and white that it is His will for all to be saved, and He wants all to repent and live. We must pray for the salvation of all.

You don't know how it ends. That is the point. We know the possibility exists for damnation, and that is real. But we don't know how it ends.

And honestly that's ok. It's ok for there to be tension there. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Very well said. Thanks.

Zobel said:

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I think you are overstating the case, that's all.

There is clear, unambiguous scripture in black and white that it is His will for all to be saved, and He wants all to repent and live. We must pray for the salvation of all.

You don't know how it ends. That is the point. We know the possibility exists for damnation, and that is real. But we don't know how it ends.

And honestly that's ok. It's ok for there to be tension there. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

---

For clarity, are you saying it's reasonable to hope in universalism, or universal repentance of those in hell?

The Banned said:

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Zobel said:

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I think you are overstating the case, that's all.

There is clear, unambiguous scripture in black and white that it is His will for all to be saved, and He wants all to repent and live. We must pray for the salvation of all.

You don't know how it ends. That is the point. We know the possibility exists for damnation, and that is real. But we don't know how it ends.

And honestly that's ok. It's ok for there to be tension there. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

---

For clarity, are you saying it's reasonable to hope in universalism, or universal repentance of those in hell?

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Who is in hell? Judgement Day has not occurred.

Scripture is pretty clear that the dead are still in their graves awaiting judgement and a bodily resurrection.

Now Jesus does allude to a paradise which is a blissful state for believers awaiting the return of Christ and the bodily resurrection.

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Zobel said:

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I think you are overstating the case, that's all.

There is clear, unambiguous scripture in black and white that it is His will for all to be saved, and He wants all to repent and live. We must pray for the salvation of all.

You don't know how it ends. That is the point. We know the possibility exists for damnation, and that is real. But we don't know how it ends.

And honestly that's ok. It's ok for there to be tension there. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

---

For clarity, are you saying it's reasonable to hope in universalism, or universal repentance of those in hell?

---

Who is in hell? Judgement Day has not occurred.

---

Edit: I genuinely enjoy these conversations. I think we've reached the impasse on two points:

1. Tradition. If you don't believe in the church's historical authority to define these things hold no more weight than dermdoc's, we won't be able to move any closer to an agreement

2. Free will. If you do not believe we have the ability to ultimately defy God, then we cannot move any closer to an agreement.

I feel for your position. I can honestly say I wish it to be true. But I have to either choose to believe that the church was wrong for over 1000 years and teaching Christians abject error, or I have to believe dermdoc/universalism/universal repentance is in error. I choose the latter, and I think there is very good evidence for it. But I will join you in praying for all souls to be repent and be saved on this side of eternity.

I'm not sure I understand the difference. If everyone repents, then in the end they're the same, no?

Also at least as far as human experience is concerned, the judgment hasn't happened.

As far as I know the only person I have ever seen the fathers explicitly say is condemned is Judas. And I struggle with that a lot. We don't know and should not condemn anyone - we are not the Judge, or the Master. They are His servants, not ours. And who are we to judge another's servants? We should pray for them.

Agree. Judas is tough.

Catag94 said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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"Love could not bear that"

Here is a nice essay from Metropolitan Kallistos

https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf

---

Admittedly, I have not taken time to read this article. However, I suggest it would not make Romans 6:23 invalid.

---

Everybody dies because of original sin.

That does not mean eternal punishment.

And Scripture pretty clearly states that all people will be raised from the dead for judgement.

The question is do people have the ability to reject God who desires salvation for all men?

---

Yes and Jesus, in his sermon on the mount (and in Mat 25) pretty well indicates many will be in the crowd to the right (Life) and to the left (eternal fire).

---

Couple of things. The Greek word used in the sheep and goats parable is kolasin. That is used primarily as a description for rehabilitative correction and actually originally meant pruning.

There is another Greek word for retributive punishment, timoria.

Also the word for eternity usually is translated as "of an age" and not eternal.

It is fascinating to me that Jesus mentioned no sinner's prayer, no baptism, etc. and only judged based on the good or evil the nations had done.

How this verse became what it has in the Western church is almost completely due to Augustine.

---

Does this logic teach that Satan's punishment will be rehabilitative in nature and that he too will be saved in the end?

---

Yes, Satan too will be transformed

Revelation 14:10 YLT
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb.

Torment is also defined as a tool for refining. Brimstone is also a refining agent. This verse is describing Satan being refined and with Jesus himself supervising the process.

---

Does it describe an end to this refinement and what follows?

---

I haven't seen anything that describes the end of the refinement but we know that it's not eternal because, in the end, Jesus will have converted ALL people to God and will deliver the kingdom to him.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Zobel said:

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I think you are overstating the case, that's all.

There is clear, unambiguous scripture in black and white that it is His will for all to be saved, and He wants all to repent and live. We must pray for the salvation of all.

You don't know how it ends. That is the point. We know the possibility exists for damnation, and that is real. But we don't know how it ends.

And honestly that's ok. It's ok for there to be tension there. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

---

For clarity, are you saying it's reasonable to hope in universalism, or universal repentance of those in hell?

---

Who is in hell? Judgement Day has not occurred.

---

Edit: I genuinely enjoy these conversations. I think we've reached the impasse on two points:

1. Tradition. If you don't believe in the church's historical authority to define these things hold no more weight than dermdoc's, we won't be able to move any closer to an agreement

2. Free will. If you do not believe we have the ability to ultimately defy God, then we cannot move any closer to an agreement.

I feel for your position. I can honestly say I wish it to be true. But I have to either choose to believe that the church was wrong for over 1000 years and teaching Christians abject error, or I have to believe dermdoc/universalism/universal repentance is in error. I choose the latter, and I think there is very good evidence for it. But I will join you in praying for all souls to be repent and be saved on this side of eternity.

---

I do not think it is as clear cut as you say.

A lot of people think Origen was called a heretic for his universalist beliefs, but I believe it was another issue, the idea of souls before conception that brought him criticism.

If I recall correctly, even Augustine did not call the universal reconciliation proponents heretics but "soft hearted".

And if I am wrong on those please correct me. Thanks.

Zobel said:

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I'm not sure I understand the difference. If everyone repents, then in the end they're the same, no?

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2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Luke 15: 1-7 niv
Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn't he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

God loves ALL of us and Jesus will NOT stop until ALL have come to him.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Zobel said:

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I think you are overstating the case, that's all.

There is clear, unambiguous scripture in black and white that it is His will for all to be saved, and He wants all to repent and live. We must pray for the salvation of all.

You don't know how it ends. That is the point. We know the possibility exists for damnation, and that is real. But we don't know how it ends.

And honestly that's ok. It's ok for there to be tension there. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

---

For clarity, are you saying it's reasonable to hope in universalism, or universal repentance of those in hell?

---

Who is in hell? Judgement Day has not occurred.

---

2. Free will. If you do not believe we have the ability to ultimately defy God, then we cannot move any closer to an agreement.

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My brother, we have limited free will. Just ask Jonah.

Zobel said:

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As far as I know the only person I have ever seen the fathers explicitly say is condemned is Judas.

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People are indeed condemned, but it is for an age or a period of time, not for eternity.

Most English Bible translations, such as the KJV, mistranslated the Greek word "aeonian" to mean "eternal" when, in fact, it means for a period of time. And we KNOW that they mistranslated that word because of the plethora of scripture that says that ALL people will be with God.

Here is Matthew 25:46 KJV:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Here is the correct translation of the ORIGINAL scripture. Remember, the KJV itself is a TRANSLATION and a shoddy translation at that.

Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

I think this is a particularly weak etymological argument.

I don't think we can say for sure, that's all. I don't have much else to say, but as St John Cassian said regarding free will - paraphrasing here - if you go too far one way or another you end up in all sorts of opposite errors.

As the psalmist said some matters are too great for us.

Zobel said:

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I'm not sure I understand the difference. If everyone repents, then in the end they're the same, no?

Also at least as far as human experience is concerned, the judgment hasn't happened.

As far as I know the only person I have ever seen the fathers explicitly say is condemned is Judas. And I struggle with that a lot. We don't know and should not condemn anyone - we are not the Judge, or the Master. They are His servants, not ours. And who are we to judge another's servants? We should pray for them.

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I'll Join you in praying for them. I'll pray for you and hope you pray for me. I just don't see anything that should give a reasonable HOPE in the truest sense of the word.

M1Buckeye said:

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Zobel said:

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As far as I know the only person I have ever seen the fathers explicitly say is condemned is Judas.

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People are indeed condemned, but it is for an age or a period of time, not for eternity.

Most English Bible translations, such as the KJV, mistranslated the Greek word "aeonian" to mean "eternal" when, in fact, it means for a period of time. And we KNOW that they mistranslated that word because of the plethora of scripture that says that ALL people will be with God.

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You have the same problem as Derm. You are willing to grant Heaven eternity but unwilling to grant hell eternity when they use the same verbiage.

M1Buckeye said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Zobel said:

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I think you are overstating the case, that's all.

There is clear, unambiguous scripture in black and white that it is His will for all to be saved, and He wants all to repent and live. We must pray for the salvation of all.

You don't know how it ends. That is the point. We know the possibility exists for damnation, and that is real. But we don't know how it ends.

And honestly that's ok. It's ok for there to be tension there. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

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For clarity, are you saying it's reasonable to hope in universalism, or universal repentance of those in hell?

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Who is in hell? Judgement Day has not occurred.

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2. Free will. If you do not believe we have the ability to ultimately defy God, then we cannot move any closer to an agreement.

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My brother, we have limited free will. Just ask Jonah.

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In my opinion, limited free will is a cop out. You're still not free. I firmly believe that Jonah could have denied God's commands up to his very death.

The Banned said:

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Zobel said:

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I think hoping for God's will to be done is never unreasonable.

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And I would say that the Bible and Tradition describe God's will to include people ultimately residing in hell. Not because He desires them to be there, but because He allows them to choose a path that leads them there.

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I believe the purpose of our lives here is, in part, to learn that the only way to total fulfillment is by going to God. Yes, God allows us to go in another direction as it teaches us that doing so is a mistake. However, eventually ALL will go to Jesus but, sadly, many of them will first be judged and condemned to temporary death and then to the Lake of Fire for correction.