All I know is since our church left the UMC two years ago we started growing in members and in energy & joy!

Windy City Ag said:

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Unfortunately UMC is taking a lot of assets with them.

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At least in Dallas, many of the wealthiest and most financially sustainable Methodist churches are sticking with the UMC.

Highland Park United Methodist is probably the most prosperous, followed by Lovers Lane. They have been pushed by the UMC North Texas conference over the years to absorb or prop up smaller failing churches. St.Andrews in Plano did bolt.

White's Chapel out in Southlake has already bolted but for whatever reason avoid the GMC as well, trying its own separate approach. It is a mega-church so they can definitely get away with it. They style themselves as centrist.

I am not sure how Houston went. Maybe different there. I knew the Woodlands UMC was also pretty much a mega-church and disaffilaited.

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I know Kingwood UMC went GMC.

That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.

Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.

The Chicken Ranch said:

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That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.

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And before that, PCPC broke off from HPPC because PCUSA wasn't conservative enough and HPPC didn't want to split at the time..

I'm not familiar with PCPC. I'm not from North Texas, so you'll have to spell it out.

Are they EPC or PCA? At some point the ECO and EPC will likely merge. We are already in covenant with each other.

The PCUSA was never conservative, but it had conservative churches. They became openly hostile to conservative churches, just like the UMC did. Hence the split. The UMC-GMC split is just 15 years behind the Presbyterians.

The Chicken Ranch said:

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I'm not familiar with PCPC. I'm not from North Texas, so you'll have to spell it out.

Are they EPC or PCA? At some point the ECO and EPC will likely merge. We are already in covenant with each other.

The PCUSA was never conservative, but it had conservative churches. They became openly hostile to conservative churches, just like the UMC did. Hence the split. The UMC-GMC split is just 15 years behind the Presbyterians.

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Park Cities Presbyterian (PCPC) split from HPPC and went to PCA in the early-90s. While HPPC was one of the biggest conservative churches within PCUSA, many saw the writing on the wall.

The Chicken Ranch said:

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That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.

Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.

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as did First Presbyterian Houston. Had to sue PCUSA in court to take all the property.

Windy City Ag said:

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Quote:

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Unfortunately UMC is taking a lot of assets with them.

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At least in Dallas, many of the wealthiest and most financially sustainable Methodist churches are sticking with the UMC.

Highland Park United Methodist is probably the most prosperous, followed by Lovers Lane. They have been pushed by the UMC North Texas conference over the years to absorb or prop up smaller failing churches. St.Andrews in Plano did bolt.

White's Chapel out in Southlake has already bolted but for whatever reason avoid the GMC as well, trying its own separate approach. It is a mega-church so they can definitely get away with it. They style themselves as centrist.

I am not sure how Houston went. Maybe different there. I knew the Woodlands UMC was also pretty much a mega-church and disaffilaited.

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St Luke's Houston stayed - it's now a liberal mess of a church. Sad because not 20 years ago it was a mainline tall steeple conservative congregation.

The Chicken Ranch said:

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That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.

Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.

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I'm somewhat surprised they didn't go independent. They are or were pretty big in size back in the day when I went.

But maybe they went GMC just to keep more unity with others.

AgLiving06 said:

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The Chicken Ranch said:

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That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.

Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.

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I'm somewhat surprised they didn't go independent. They are or were pretty big in size back in the day when I went.

But maybe they went GMC just to keep more unity with others.

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Why would a Presbyterian Church go Indy when the ECO is perfectly fine?

MAROON said:

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The Chicken Ranch said:

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That's interesting because Highland Park Presbyterian was an early mover to the ECO. They are probably the wealthiest Presbyterian Church in Texas.

Kingwood is also home to a very good and stable ECO Presbyterian Church.

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as did First Presbyterian Houston. Had to sue PCUSA in court to take all the property.

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Actually, FPC Houston sued to get the state to rule on the trust clause and clarify the property ownership. Once the court ruled in their favor, they left.

It is known as the nuclear option. The courts have ruled that the local congregations really own their property in Texas, not the parent denomination. So a church (UMC/PCUSA/ELCA) can legally leave their denomination and take their property without paying a dime, if they so choose. It's really just that simple. Change your affiliation in your by-laws and send them a "Dear John…"

MAROON said:

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Windy City Ag said:

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Unfortunately UMC is taking a lot of assets with them.

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At least in Dallas, many of the wealthiest and most financially sustainable Methodist churches are sticking with the UMC.

Highland Park United Methodist is probably the most prosperous, followed by Lovers Lane. They have been pushed by the UMC North Texas conference over the years to absorb or prop up smaller failing churches. St.Andrews in Plano did bolt.

White's Chapel out in Southlake has already bolted but for whatever reason avoid the GMC as well, trying its own separate approach. It is a mega-church so they can definitely get away with it. They style themselves as centrist.

I am not sure how Houston went. Maybe different there. I knew the Woodlands UMC was also pretty much a mega-church and disaffilaited.

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St Luke's Houston stayed - it's now a liberal mess of a church. Sad because not 20 years ago it was a mainline tall steeple conservative congregation.

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A lot of the actual believers at St. Luke's are at The Story. Their pastor Eric Huffman is awesome. And that church is thriving. We are thinking about joining. Our current church lost its youth pastor and that's a must for us.

Here is Huffman's story, and it is powerful. He is the son of a Methodist minister who basically became an atheist secularized radical progressive. Then had a major change of heart when he went to the Holy Lands 10+ years ago. I have visited his church and his theology is very bible based.

the-reconversion-of-a-secularized-radical

yes - they're no longer at St Luke's which basically evicted The Story from their property. The Story was essentially St Luke's contemporary service at one-time.

MAROON said:

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yes - they're no longer at St Luke's which basically evicted The Story from their property. The Story was essentially St Luke's contemporary service at one-time.

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Yep. They are thriving. They bought Bethany Church next to Lamar High School. They will outgrow St Luke's in no time.

A lot of heavy, heavy hitters (financially) -- old school multi-generation River Oaks families -- have moved from St. John's and St. Luke's to The Story.

yes - I have two friends deeply involved there. St John's is another one that has gone by the wayside. Some great folks there, but it's becoming more and more liberal.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6gewzAtqAw/?igsh=cTNhY2NkcnVydXQ4

I'd say peak idiocy, but I don't think we're there quite yet

TresPuertas said:

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https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6gewzAtqAw/?igsh=cTNhY2NkcnVydXQ4

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They fall all over themselves and still can't get it right.

That scripture to the right of the clip is spot on for what has happened to the UMC.

Congrats to y'all 83! That is a big deal. Combined with the outcome of GC a month ago, seems likely that more remaining Texas UMC churches may break away over the next few years.

Do you know of any links (yet) that contain or explain the Dismissal ruling?

Another reminder that underneath the spiritual core of religion is a bunch of real-world financial realities.

I do know that most churches for decades have received a big helping hand from the larger UMC with loans for maintenance of physical plant. I also know that the unfunded clergy pension liability is a real issue, and I am betting all 35 churches have been receiving benefits through the Rio conference for decades.

The exit fee is supposed to address that. Their is enough of a contractual paper trail that the idea of walking with paying something of the debts each church owes is a total pipe dream.

Still, 3rd parties are coming up with valuations that are in turn being levied, so it does make sense to scrutinize the fairness of valuations.

This is the way! FPC in Houston paved the way for this. You can leave without paying a dime. Making them sue you shows their desperation.

TresPuertas said:

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https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6gewzAtqAw/?igsh=cTNhY2NkcnVydXQ4

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The female bishop in the video is Sue Haupert-Johnson. She currently oversees Virginia but was previously the bishop over North Georgia, where her actions really ramped up the disaffiliation movement.

She took the unilateral action of reassigning the senior pastor of Mt Bethel UMC, the largest & wealthiest church in the conference, as political payback for being outspoken with the UMC failing to uphold the Book of Discipline. Then as a lovely parting gift to the North GA conference, she issued an edict on her way out the door to "pause" any disaffiliations until after the General Conference due to (wait for it!) "misinformation". It took legal action by almost 200 churches to get the "pause" lifted.

She also reinforces the long-held rule in our household - never trust a woman with two/hypenated last names.

Saw this headline. Alabama's State Supreme Court dismissed a case from 44 churches attempting to disaffilate from the Alabama West Florida conference without following the established process set forth by the larger UMC.

Basically they said the legal system does not have jurisdiction to decide the case

https://www.christianpost.com/news/alabama-supreme-court-rules-against-44-churches-trying-to-leave-umc.html

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Alabama Supreme Court rules against 44 churches trying to leave the UMC

By Michael Gryboski, Mainline Church Editor Monday, June 03, 2024

The Alabama Supreme Court has upheld an earlier ruling against 44 congregations attempting to leave the United Methodist Church over the denomination's debate on LGBT issues.

In a per curiam ruling released last Friday, Alabama's highest court rejected a lawsuit by Aldersgate United Methodist Church of Montgomery and 43 other churches against the UMC Alabama-West Florida Conference.

At issue in the litigation was the procedure for which the churches could disaffiliate from the UMC, with the departing congregations arguing that the annual conference's process was unfair.

According to the state Supreme Court, the matter was centered on "ecclesiastical questions," and thus was outside the domain of secular courts to decide on, in accordance with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

"The churches argue that the trial court erred in dismissing their suit for lack of subject-matter jurisdiction because, they say, the case presents only 'civil and property issues,'" read the opinion.
"But the churches' central claims turn entirely on the interpretation of [paragraph] 2553 and whether their efforts to leave the UMC were consistent with that church law. Under existing First Amendment law and our precedent, that interpretive issue constitutes an ecclesiastical question that courts do not have jurisdiction to decide."

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So basically all the churches need to do is change their by-laws and disaffiliate.

Problem solved.

Whob knows, but all the money, real estate, and everything else is property of the UMC so that doesn't seem like a smart tactic.

But is it? Looks like the local churches own the property now. If they leave, then the UMC will have to sue all the churches individually if they want to take the property from them. I cannot imagine that would play out well for them in the courts.

Most definitely.... the legal entities that own everything are not independent of the larger UMC and can't just walk away depending on the whims of parishioners.

This was the whole reason for the creation of dissafiliation procedures. The final step of that process is the conference permitting the reassignment of deeds to property. Without that, the local churches have no claim at all.

https://www.resourceumc.org/en/content/the-ties-that-bind-the-united-methodist-trust-clause#:~:text=No%20one%20trust%20holds%20all,conference%20under%20a%20common%20trust.

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John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, kept the various Methodist societies and small groups bound together through covenants, shared practices (such as love feasts and night watches) and the model deed, or "trust clause." The model held all church property under a shared trust and ensured the various societies and bands used their assets and facilities to faithfully carry out Methodist practices everywhere.

Today United Methodists are still bound by trust clauses. No one trust holds all United Methodist property. Instead local church property is held by each annual conference under a common trust. This is in accordance with the connectional nature of the denomination.

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Windy City Ag said:

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Most definitely.... the legal entities that own everything are not independent of the larger UMC and can't just walk away depending on the whims of parishioners.

This was the whole reason for the creation of dissafiliation procedures. The final step of that process is the conference permitting the reassignment of deeds to property. Without that, the local churches have no claim at all. ….,Today United Methodists are still bound by trust clauses. No one trust holds all United Methodist property. Instead local church property is held by each annual conference under a common trust. This is in accordance with the connectional nature of the

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I don't know about Alabama, but in Texas it is that simple. The courts have ruled that trust clause doesn't hold much water if the local church has been paying all upkeep, maintenance and construction of the property. First Pres in Houston sued New Covenant Presbytery over 10 years ago to establish true ownership of the church property in Texas that is governed by a trust clause.

So yes, in Texas, you simply can exercise this nuclear option if you cannot reach an amicable split. Then when they sue you, they won't go very far. I'm sure some of our legal folks can opine in more detail.

Don't know about Alabama, which is where this is, correct?

Maybe, but I am guessing any Texas level decisions will be appealed. I don't think there is any binding legal decision that would invalidate the current status.

St. Andrews Plano is a good example. That church initially tried to just leave and ignore the disaffiliation process but after several legal rounds decided to comply with the book of discipline and pay the fees on advice of counsel.

That's just it. The "bribe" for leaving is less than the legal fees to defend the court challenge of leaving. I do think PCUSA appealed the Texas decision, but it was stayed (I may be wrong on this).

My church negotiated an exit. They left PCUSA eight years ago, and paid 100k, and got to keep their 7 digit endowment.

The denomination has deeper pockets than the churches. Even though they know they will lose a court battle in Texas, the leaving church will be destitute. Which, quite frankly is the goal of the PCUSA and the UMC. Any negotiated quick exit is always more favorable. But it is impotent to know that the nuclear option does exist.

The United Methodist Church has suffered a major drop in finances after disaffiliation:
1.) overall budget reduction is 40% from 2016 quadrennial budget
2.) number of bishops reduced from 46 to 32

https://www.umnews.org/en/news/amid-uncertainty-finance-board-plans-for-new-day

" Altogether, collections through July are $6.1 million less than in 2023. More than $5 million of that shortfall has occurred in the previous two months."

"The denomination is still operating under the higher apportionment requests that General Conference passed in 2016 as part of the denominational budget. Since 2020, a number of conferences have been paying lower apportionments based on the lower budget initially proposed to General Conference, which the COVID pandemic delayed to 2024."

"However, the trend in collections, especially in June and July, is worse than during the previous three years, and GCFA staff do not know why."

" Because of the uncertainty around revenue, Ahler explained that the General Agency and Episcopal Matters committee delayed making any recommendations about bishops' salaries for next year until the board's November meeting. The delay also puts the vote on bishop salaries on the same timeline as when the finance agency board votes on the annual spending plans of the agencies that receive funding through apportionments."

" Support for Nigerians

The finance agency board also took steps to support Nigerians who are remaining part of The United Methodist Church."

"Recently, after years of conflict, Bishop John Wesley Yohanna announced that he was leaving The United Methodist Church for the Global Methodist Church, a breakaway denomination launched in 2022 by former United Methodists wanting a more conservative church. While most of Yohanna's cabinet and other members left with him, a sizable number of Nigerians are opting to remain United Methodist..."