That's exactly what it is about. Power.

Will anyone object to me tagging on?

I saw an article and it's consistent across all splintering denominations: the conservative and liberal segments do not consider each other to be carrying out the same mission. Even as the liberal churches wither and die, they refuse to sell property to conservative churches. Their preference is a church desert in redeveloping areas where it is prohibitively expensive for anyone to move in. Few can compete with developers for real estate in downtown Austin, certainly not many churches. The preference is condos and hotels to spiritual life of any sort.

https://baptistnews.com/article/historic-first-baptist-austin-commits-to-stay-downtown-with-the-help-of-partners/

Edit: perhaps this is the true fruit of the progressive doctrine. Spiritual death not only of self and congregation but community and city is the only end.

Not too long before general conference. Wondering how off the rails it gets.

The Shank Ag said:

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Not too long before general conference. Wondering how off the rails it gets.

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With a lot of the conservatives gone this time around it will be a production…It will make the Tony's Award Show look like your kid's elementary school play…Lots of dancing on the grave that is the UMC….

The Shank Ag said:

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Not too long before general conference. Wondering how off the rails it gets.

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They've been dragging their feet on releasing information, i.e. hotel information. African churches are unable to get visas without hotel reservations. Looks like a deliberate attempt to keep conservative African churches from participating.

Martin Cash said:

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The Shank Ag said:

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Not too long before general conference. Wondering how off the rails it gets.

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They've been dragging their feet on releasing information, i.e. hotel information. African churches are unable to get visas without hotel reservations. Looks like a deliberate attempt to keep conservative African churches from participating.

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Not surprised by this if true. It was the African churches that helped stave off the liberal proposals last conference…I have not seen anything on it but any idea how many African churches left the UMC since last conference??

88Warrior said:

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Martin Cash said:

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The Shank Ag said:

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Not too long before general conference. Wondering how off the rails it gets.

---

They've been dragging their feet on releasing information, i.e. hotel information. African churches are unable to get visas without hotel reservations. Looks like a deliberate attempt to keep conservative African churches from participating.

---

Not surprised by this if true. It was the African churches that helped stave off the liberal proposals last conference…I have not seen anything on it but any idea how many African churches left the UMC since last conference??

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Almost none.

African churches have the people.
UMC has the money.
UMC needs the people.
African churches need the money.

The latest UMC "plan" is to have a carve out, a separate set of rules for the African churches. A different book of discipline, definition of marriage, etc.

If implemented, it will make for an interesting, more dependency based relationship.

goatchze said:

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88Warrior said:

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Martin Cash said:

---

The Shank Ag said:

---

Not too long before general conference. Wondering how off the rails it gets.

---

They've been dragging their feet on releasing information, i.e. hotel information. African churches are unable to get visas without hotel reservations. Looks like a deliberate attempt to keep conservative African churches from participating.

---

Not surprised by this if true. It was the African churches that helped stave off the liberal proposals last conference…I have not seen anything on it but any idea how many African churches left the UMC since last conference??

---

Almost none.

African churches have the people.
UMC has the money.
UMC needs the people.
African churches need the money.

The latest UMC "plan" is to have a carve out, a separate set of rules for the African churches. A different book of discipline, definition of marriage, etc.

If implemented, it will make for an interesting, more dependency based relationship.

---

With the loss of some of the bigger, more traditional churches via disaffiliation, I feel the UMC cash flow will be in a bind here pretty soon…

88Warrior said:

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goatchze said:

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88Warrior said:

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Martin Cash said:

---

The Shank Ag said:

---

Not too long before general conference. Wondering how off the rails it gets.

---

They've been dragging their feet on releasing information, i.e. hotel information. African churches are unable to get visas without hotel reservations. Looks like a deliberate attempt to keep conservative African churches from participating.

---

Not surprised by this if true. It was the African churches that helped stave off the liberal proposals last conference…I have not seen anything on it but any idea how many African churches left the UMC since last conference??

---

Almost none.

African churches have the people.
UMC has the money.
UMC needs the people.
African churches need the money.

The latest UMC "plan" is to have a carve out, a separate set of rules for the African churches. A different book of discipline, definition of marriage, etc.

If implemented, it will make for an interesting, more dependency based relationship.

---

With the loss of some of the bigger, more traditional churches via disaffiliation, I feel the UMC cash flow will be in a bind here pretty soon…

---

Already here

Quote:

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For now, the GCFA board is proposing a 2025-2028 denominational budget of about $346.7 million to the denomination's top policymaking assembly, scheduled to meet April 23-May 3 in Charlotte, North Carolina.

That's about $23.8 million less than the budget proposal the finance agency board approved in May last year.

The new bottom line also marks a nearly 43% overall reduction from the $604 million denomination-wide budget that General Conference approved at its last regular meeting in 2016 and represents the biggest budget drop in the denomination's history.

---

https://www.umnews.org/en/news/amid-church-losses-proposed-budget-slashed

Martin Cash said:

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goatchze said:

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The latest UMC "plan" is to have a carve out, a separate set of rules for the African churches. A different book of discipline, definition of marriage, etc.

If implemented, it will make for an interesting, more dependency based relationship.

---

So the Word of God is different depending on what continent you're on?

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Easily reconciled if your primary goal is advancing progressive causes.

Martin Cash said:

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goatchze said:

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The latest UMC "plan" is to have a carve out, a separate set of rules for the African churches. A different book of discipline, definition of marriage, etc.

If implemented, it will make for an interesting, more dependency based relationship.

---

So the Word of God is different depending on what continent you're on?

---

Interpretation is.

https://www.starkvilledailynews.com/news/new-journey-global-methodist-church-confirms-members/article_bb9fb676-eae2-11ee-8588-b3b341401d60.html

https://religionnews.com/2024/04/04/ahead-of-general-conference-queer-united-methodist-delegates-organize-a-caucus/

The last time the United Methodist Church met for its General Conference, in 2019, there were only seven self-identifying LGBTQ delegates. When the denomination convenes later this month, there will be 26 enough to form a caucus, which is exactly what they've done.

The first-ever United Methodist Queer Delegate Caucus will be among the more visible changes when the denomination's top legislative body convenes April 23-May 3 in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Though the caucus can only be unofficial in a denomination that still views homosexuality as "incompatible with Christian teaching," it is organized and ready for the spotlight. It has a website, it plans on convening news conferences and it has already ordered T-shirts and pins.

...

"Queer folks have been bearing the weight of the division and the discrimination in this denomination for close to 50 years," said the Rev. Becca Girrell, pastor of a church in Morrisville, Vermont, and a member of the queer delegate caucus. "And that's just not a tenable weight to carry any longer for most folks."

But for this conference, the goals of the caucus are more modest. They include the removal of contested passages from the denomination's rulebook, the Book of Discipline, that restrict LGBTQ members from ordination and marriage. The caucus is not calling for new definitions or expressions.

"We're not seeking at this point to add any affirming language," said Helen Ryde, a regional organizer with the Reconciling Ministries Network who serves on the caucus's 10-person steering committee. "This is getting us to neutral. It's getting us to a level playing field where there's nothing bad in there. This is not the year to be trying to do any more than that."

(i.e. not yet)

...

That doesn't mean there won't be opposition to removing restrictive LGBTQ passages from the rulebook. The United Methodist Church is a global denomination and many delegates from Africa and Asia will likely resist any changes to the human sexuality clauses.

For that reason, the caucus supports another proposal before the General Conference to restructure the United Methodist Church worldwide to give each region of the church parity and the ability to tailor their own customs and traditions to meet local needs. That plan is called regionalization.

If it passes a yearslong process that will require ratification in each region Methodists in Africa, Europe, the Philippines and the United States would each be able to customize the Book of Discipline on questions of human sexuality and other nondoctrinal issues.

The Chicken Ranch said:

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You are about 15 years behind the PCUSA.

They will then change the pronouns in the Bible, then they will change your hymns and liturgy to be justice centered. In your confessions you will ask God to forgive you for being white and destroying the earth, while you will pray for justice for Palestinian terrorists. You will be asked to adamantly support gun control and abortion up to the second that the baby is born. You will be inclusive of any gender they can think of and have "Jesus was queer" classes shoved down your throat.

Go find you a Global Methodist Church, an ECO/EPC/PCA Presbyterian Church, or a LCMS/WELS Lutheran Church and be done with it.

My Faith walk with God has blossomed since we left the PCUSA. Pray about it, and listen to God.

---

I am already a member of the GMC. But I still have friends in the UMC, so I try to keep up with what is going on there.

goatchze said:

---

https://religionnews.com/2024/04/04/ahead-of-general-conference-queer-united-methodist-delegates-organize-a-caucus/

The last time the United Methodist Church met for its General Conference, in 2019, there were only seven self-identifying LGBTQ delegates. When the denomination convenes later this month, there will be 26 enough to form a caucus, which is exactly what they've done.

The first-ever United Methodist Queer Delegate Caucus will be among the more visible changes when the denomination's top legislative body convenes April 23-May 3 in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Though the caucus can only be unofficial in a denomination that still views homosexuality as "incompatible with Christian teaching," it is organized and ready for the spotlight. It has a website, it plans on convening news conferences and it has already ordered T-shirts and pins.

...

"Queer folks have been bearing the weight of the division and the discrimination in this denomination for close to 50 years," said the Rev. Becca Girrell, pastor of a church in Morrisville, Vermont, and a member of the queer delegate caucus. "And that's just not a tenable weight to carry any longer for most folks."

But for this conference, the goals of the caucus are more modest. They include the removal of contested passages from the denomination's rulebook, the Book of Discipline, that restrict LGBTQ members from ordination and marriage. The caucus is not calling for new definitions or expressions.

"We're not seeking at this point to add any affirming language," said Helen Ryde, a regional organizer with the Reconciling Ministries Network who serves on the caucus's 10-person steering committee. "This is getting us to neutral. It's getting us to a level playing field where there's nothing bad in there. This is not the year to be trying to do any more than that."

(i.e. not yet)

...

That doesn't mean there won't be opposition to removing restrictive LGBTQ passages from the rulebook. The United Methodist Church is a global denomination and many delegates from Africa and Asia will likely resist any changes to the human sexuality clauses.

For that reason, the caucus supports another proposal before the General Conference to restructure the United Methodist Church worldwide to give each region of the church parity and the ability to tailor their own customs and traditions to meet local needs. That plan is called regionalization.

If it passes a yearslong process that will require ratification in each region Methodists in Africa, Europe, the Philippines and the United States would each be able to customize the Book of Discipline on questions of human sexuality and other nondoctrinal issues.

---

The old "divide THEN conquer" technique….The UMC will be gone in 10 years….The big conservative donors that have funded the UMC are leaving.

All of the liberal groups are dying.

You'll see a merger, probably of the UMC, ELCA, maybe episcopal, etc into some liberal organization (they aren't Christian) to consolidate assets and last a little longer.

88Warrior said:

---

goatchze said:

---

https://religionnews.com/2024/04/04/ahead-of-general-conference-queer-united-methodist-delegates-organize-a-caucus/

The last time the United Methodist Church met for its General Conference, in 2019, there were only seven self-identifying LGBTQ delegates. When the denomination convenes later this month, there will be 26 enough to form a caucus, which is exactly what they've done.

The first-ever United Methodist Queer Delegate Caucus will be among the more visible changes when the denomination's top legislative body convenes April 23-May 3 in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Though the caucus can only be unofficial in a denomination that still views homosexuality as "incompatible with Christian teaching," it is organized and ready for the spotlight. It has a website, it plans on convening news conferences and it has already ordered T-shirts and pins.

...

"Queer folks have been bearing the weight of the division and the discrimination in this denomination for close to 50 years," said the Rev. Becca Girrell, pastor of a church in Morrisville, Vermont, and a member of the queer delegate caucus. "And that's just not a tenable weight to carry any longer for most folks."

But for this conference, the goals of the caucus are more modest. They include the removal of contested passages from the denomination's rulebook, the Book of Discipline, that restrict LGBTQ members from ordination and marriage. The caucus is not calling for new definitions or expressions.

"We're not seeking at this point to add any affirming language," said Helen Ryde, a regional organizer with the Reconciling Ministries Network who serves on the caucus's 10-person steering committee. "This is getting us to neutral. It's getting us to a level playing field where there's nothing bad in there. This is not the year to be trying to do any more than that."

(i.e. not yet)

...

That doesn't mean there won't be opposition to removing restrictive LGBTQ passages from the rulebook. The United Methodist Church is a global denomination and many delegates from Africa and Asia will likely resist any changes to the human sexuality clauses.

For that reason, the caucus supports another proposal before the General Conference to restructure the United Methodist Church worldwide to give each region of the church parity and the ability to tailor their own customs and traditions to meet local needs. That plan is called regionalization.

If it passes a yearslong process that will require ratification in each region Methodists in Africa, Europe, the Philippines and the United States would each be able to customize the Book of Discipline on questions of human sexuality and other nondoctrinal issues.

---

The old "divide THEN conquer" technique….The UMC will be gone in 10 years….The big conservative donors that have funded the UMC are leaving.

---

Unfortunately UMC is taking a lot of assets with them. Ultimately it will be sold off and the money will go to progressive groups and causes. I personally think that is the tactic. Think of it as the hostile takeover from the movie Wall Street.

PCUSA is also very actively engaged in eliminating freedom of religion protections especially in employment so they can force LGBTQIAs into clergy and administration positions. UNC is giddy to catch up.

Big ol middle finger to the African delegations.

I'm not sure why they would stick around.

https://www.umcafricaforum.org/news/open-letter

Even though we left the UMC over a year ago, I am still keeping up.

Regionalization just passed at nearly 80%. Basically that let's the US conferences and Non US conferences have different rules/books of discipline. Get ready for a ton to get ram rodded through. This year will probably be just removal of homosexual language in the book of discipline and allowing for "out" clergy, but look out 2028 or any special sessions called. Could get a ton more heretical in a hurry.

This thing is an S-Show. Please search #UMCGC on Twitter. Tons of people out of their mind excited that a non-binary person was committee leader, that a Native American was leading session, and that they were able to remove traditional voices abroad through regionalization.

I implore any UMC person left on this board to tell me how this isn't completely off the rails and not going to continue heading more that direction. I say this as somebody that spent the first 36 years of my life dedicated to the UMC, baptized both my children there, and still have family members I love deeply that weren't ready to split because it will "never happen to our church", despite the former pastor and current female pastor being very much anti-Bible and pro all liberal stances possible even in small-town Texas.

Point them to pcusa.org and you will see what will happen. It happened to the Presbyterians, the Lutherans (ELCA) and the Eipscopals. The good news is there are true, Bible adhering denominations in all of those traditions that are strong, growing and vibrant.

The time to try and change our church ended for us. We left. And we simply found an amazing ECO Presbyterian Church that we love. Several families moved at the same time, so it isn't like we left all of our church family behind.

My advice to anyone at this point that is a true believer at a UMC, PCUSA or ELCA church is to find yourself a good GMC, ECO/EPC/PCA, LCMS/WELS church and leave. It will release you!

You're right, and it actually goes farther. I did a quick google search to see who the ELCA was in full communion with and the results are:

ELCA Full Communion Partners

Quote:

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Characteristics of full Communion

• common confessing of the Christian faith
• mutual recognition of Baptism and a sharing of the Lord's Supper, allowing for joint worship and an exchangeability of members
• mutual recognition and availability of ordained ministers to the service of all, subject to the disciplinary regulations of other denominations
• common commitment to evangelism, witness and service
• means of common decision-making on critical common issues of faith and life
• mutual lifting of any condemnations that exist between denominations.

---

Partners:

PCUSA
Reformed Church in America
United Church of Christ
The Episcopal Church
The Moravian Church (not sure who this is)
United Methodist Church

So to your point...today, an ELCA pastor could show up on your pulpit, and your family would have to accept them and their teachings.

It is inevitable that these groups will merge into a single liberal group (I won't even pretend they are Christians).

AgLiving06 said:

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You're right, and it actually goes farther. I did a quick google search to see who the ELCA was in full communion with and the results are:

ELCA Full Communion Partners

Quote:

---

Characteristics of full Communion

• common confessing of the Christian faith
• mutual recognition of Baptism and a sharing of the Lord's Supper, allowing for joint worship and an exchangeability of members
• mutual recognition and availability of ordained ministers to the service of all, subject to the disciplinary regulations of other denominations
• common commitment to evangelism, witness and service
• means of common decision-making on critical common issues of faith and life
• mutual lifting of any condemnations that exist between denominations.

---

Partners:

PCUSA
Reformed Church in America
United Church of Christ
The Episcopal Church
The Moravian Church (not sure who this is)
United Methodist Church

So to your point...today, an ELCA pastor could show up on your pulpit, and your family would have to accept them and their teachings.

It is inevitable that these groups will merge into a single liberal group (I won't even pretend they are Christians).

---

Moravians, aka Moravian Bretheren. They have a few churches near Caldwell

The removal of the "homosexuality clause" in the UM Book of Discipline passed all committees yesterday - ready to be voted on and then sent to the Annual Conferences for ratification.
Clear differences and bold boundaries clarify decisions and commitments. Very glad to be going to a GM Church.

AgLiving06 said:

---

You're right, and it actually goes farther. I did a quick google search to see who the ELCA was in full communion with and the results are:

ELCA Full Communion Partners

Quote:

---

Characteristics of full Communion

• common confessing of the Christian faith
• mutual recognition of Baptism and a sharing of the Lord's Supper, allowing for joint worship and an exchangeability of members
• mutual recognition and availability of ordained ministers to the service of all, subject to the disciplinary regulations of other denominations
• common commitment to evangelism, witness and service
• means of common decision-making on critical common issues of faith and life
• mutual lifting of any condemnations that exist between denominations.

---

Partners:

PCUSA
Reformed Church in America
United Church of Christ
The Episcopal Church
The Moravian Church (not sure who this is)
United Methodist Church

So to your point...today, an ELCA pastor could show up on your pulpit, and your family would have to accept them and their teachings.

It is inevitable that these groups will merge into a single liberal group (I won't even pretend they are Christians).

---

They are going to all be pushing to eliminate religious freedom in hiring and employment. Churches will not be able to discriminate based on sexual orientation or gender if they get their way. PCUSA is already very active on this initiative.

It's done

Quote:

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Unfortunately UMC is taking a lot of assets with them.

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At least in Dallas, many of the wealthiest and most financially sustainable Methodist churches are sticking with the UMC.

Highland Park United Methodist is probably the most prosperous, followed by Lovers Lane. They have been pushed by the UMC North Texas conference over the years to absorb or prop up smaller failing churches. St.Andrews in Plano did bolt.

White's Chapel out in Southlake has already bolted but for whatever reason avoid the GMC as well, trying its own separate approach. It is a mega-church so they can definitely get away with it. They style themselves as centrist.

I am not sure how Houston went. Maybe different there. I knew the Woodlands UMC was also pretty much a mega-church and disaffilaited.

This is so sad.