M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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Is there a distinction between biological sex and gender?

This seems to be an offshoot of the argument that homosexuality is something taught and that no one is actually born homosexual. . . .but through hard work they can pray the gay away. If you believe that people can be born homosexual, you would not have any issue referring to someone as such. If you believe that homosexuality is a choice - you might object to recognizing them as born homosexual and instead say they are a confused heterosexual.

Similarly, if you believe a man or woman can be born with a different gender association, then why should there be an issue with choosing language to describe that person that correlates to that person's identity? If you think that the whole idea of transgendered persons is bogus, then from your point of view, it is a lie.

I'm not going to convince of you of anything here. By your admission in your first post, you are not close to anyone who is trans. Get close to someone that is trans and then make up your mind. It just seems silly to me to pass judgement on a whole group of people but not know anyone from that group.

So why the parentheses around Christian?

M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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PacifistAg said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

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My 2 cents -
To reject the pronouns as a lie, seems to me, to be a rejection that some people are transgender. And if that is the case, then I can understand seeing the pronouns as a lie. However, I would offer the following thought - I know what its like to be me and no one else. M1Buckeye knows what its like to be M1Buckeye and no one else. We all share common experiences, but it seems that it should be quite clear to anyone who has ever known someone else deeply, that many of our experiences are not the same. That is to say that we experience the world uniquely. We can listen to other people and learn something about who they are, how they think, and how they experience the world, but never fully know what its like to be them. Now, if I tell you that I believe I am an immortal half man - half alien from the planet Glorp and that this is how I experience the world. . . . well, I may just be nuts. But when millions of people share a common experience of feeling as though their biological sex and gender association are different, then it seems to ignore this is to, at least in part, to reject the idea that other people have experiences that are not the same as yours. If there was no issue with acknowledging that transgender people exist, I can't see an issue with using a pronoun that relates to a gender identity. I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

edit - weird that the bleeped out a part of the anatomy. . . . I trust you all can figure out what I typed though.

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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Didn't Rahab lie? Didn't Abraham & Sarah lie about their relationship?

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Not to mention David, Jacob, Joseph, etc.

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I believe it's morally acceptable, at times, to lie. For instance, if one was protecting Jews from Nazis, it would be moral to deny harboring any Jews.

I'm actually on the fence, so to speak, about whether a Christian should refer to a transgender woman as a "she" or "her", and that's why I created this thread.

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Liar. From your OP:

Quote:

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If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not.

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There's nothing on the fence about that statement. You already made up your mind in the OP and simply sought pats on your back.

kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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It just seems silly to me to pass judgement on a whole group of people but not know anyone from that group.

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On the contrary, it seems that it's YOU that is passing "judgment". You're free to quote me wherein I passed "judgment".

M1Buckeye said:

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Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]

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And what were you implying here?

He's just lying all over the place now.

kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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Is there a distinction between biological sex and gender?

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One is born male or female, possibly excluding someone with a genetic disorder.

dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Should Christians adhere to this commandment or should Christians go with the flow in order to please the world?

I've noticed in this forum a number of Christians that, apparently, don't believe the bible.

Romans 12:2

English Standard Version

2 Do not be conformed to this world,[a] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[b]

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And what were you implying here?

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You are constantly putting me on trial in these threads.

kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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If you believe that people can be born homosexual...

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I do believe that some people are born homosexual.

Fair enough.

You were the one who put parentheses around Christians. Why did you do it?

kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

---

Similarly, if you believe a man or woman can be born with a different gender association, then why should there be an issue with choosing language to describe that person that correlates to that person's identity? If you think that the whole idea of transgendered persons is bogus, then from your point of view, it is a lie.

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That's sort of where I'm on the fence. Is it more loving to go along with their belief that, even though they were born with a *****, that they're actually a female? Or is it more loving to tell them that you love them but that they are actually a male and then encourage them to be comfortable with who they really are?

But, again, I'm asking for a CHRISTIAN perspective on this question, meaning, what would Jesus tell us to do?

I agree with the previous poster that, in some circumstances, telling them what they want to hear might indeed be the most Christ-like course of action. After all, as with lying to protect Jews from Nazis, there are likely justified exceptions to many things.

dermdoc said:

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Fair enough.

You were the one who put parentheses around Christians. Why did you do it?

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I don't believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian is, indeed, a Christian.

M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fair enough.

You were the one who put parentheses around Christians. Why did you do it?

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I don't believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian is, indeed, a Christian.

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I believe everyone who through grace has faith that Jesus is their Savior is a Christian.

How about you?

dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fair enough.

You were the one who put parentheses around Christians. Why did you do it?

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I don't believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian is, indeed, a Christian.

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I believe everyone who through grace has faith that Jesus is their Savior is a Christian.

How about you?

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Mathew 7:21-23 ESV

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

M1Buckeye said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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It just seems silly to me to pass judgement on a whole group of people but not know anyone from that group.

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On the contrary, it seems that it's YOU that is passing "judgment". You're free to quote me wherein I passed "judgment".

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You got defensive real quickly on that one. . . let me rephrase

You have an opinion about the existence or non-existence of persons born transgendered. And you have an opinion on the validity of the unique life experiences that are communicated by trans persons. Yet you do not know anyone that is trans. That to me seems silly. I apologize if that triggered you.

M1Buckeye said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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Is there a distinction between biological sex and gender?

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One is born male or female, possibly excluding someone with a genetic disorder.

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This does not answer the question.

kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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It just seems silly to me to pass judgement on a whole group of people but not know anyone from that group.

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On the contrary, it seems that it's YOU that is passing "judgment". You're free to quote me wherein I passed "judgment".

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You got defensive real quickly on that one. . . let me rephrase

You have an opinion about the existence or non-existence of persons born transgendered. And you have an opinion on the validity of the unique life experiences that are communicated by trans persons. Yet you do not know anyone that is trans. That to me seems silly. I apologize if that triggered you.

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He doesn't know any trans people, thinks we're wrong, wants to tell us we're wrong, and demands we engage on his terms. There's an enormous amount of hubris involved. And of course, he put the one actual trans person on this board on his ignore list because I refused to play his game and caught him in one of his many lies.

It's good he's softening though.

M1Buckeye said:

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That's sort of where I'm on the fence. Is it more loving to go along with their belief that, even though they were born with a *****, that they're actually a female? Or is it more loving to tell them that you love them but that they are actually a male and then encourage them to be comfortable with who they really are?

But, again, I'm asking for a CHRISTIAN perspective on this question, meaning, what would Jesus tell us to do?

I agree with the previous poster that, in some circumstances, telling them what they want to hear might indeed be the most Christ-like course of action. After all, as with lying to protect Jews from Nazis, there are likely justified exceptions to many things.

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As a non-Christian, I'll bow out of the conversation then.

I offered my post for the purposes of presenting a Christian path toward using transgendered pronouns and have it not be a lie. Of course, my argument hinges on whether or not you believe that people can be born with this gender dysphoria or not. If the answer is not, then I have nothing else really to contribute other than my suggestion that I think you might feel differently if you knew more trans people.

I refer to trans people as their name when necessary and avoid pronouns altogether. My opinion is that using pronouns incorrectly to facilitate a disorder is unhealthy, and contrary to what we're called to do. If a trans person is offended (and makes it known!) by my doing this I can't help it, but I know I'll be vilified when it happens. I'll take a look at that link of the Theologian and Pastor to see what they have to say though, and report back

kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

---

It just seems silly to me to pass judgement on a whole group of people but not know anyone from that group.

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On the contrary, it seems that it's YOU that is passing "judgment". You're free to quote me wherein I passed "judgment".

---

You got defensive real quickly on that one. . . let me rephrase

You have an opinion about the existence or non-existence of persons born transgendered. And you have an opinion on the validity of the unique life experiences that are communicated by trans persons. Yet you do not know anyone that is trans. That to me seems silly. I apologize if that triggered you.

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The bible says that people are born male or female. Do you have a Biblical argument to back your assertions?

There's a very valid interpretation that Gen 1 is using a literary device called merism. Much like day/night, land/sea, Aplha/Omega describe not just the listed items but every variation in between.

kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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That's sort of where I'm on the fence. Is it more loving to go along with their belief that, even though they were born with a *****, that they're actually a female? Or is it more loving to tell them that you love them but that they are actually a male and then encourage them to be comfortable with who they really are?

But, again, I'm asking for a CHRISTIAN perspective on this question, meaning, what would Jesus tell us to do?

I agree with the previous poster that, in some circumstances, telling them what they want to hear might indeed be the most Christ-like course of action. After all, as with lying to protect Jews from Nazis, there are likely justified exceptions to many things.

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As a non-Christian, I'll bow out of the conversation then.

I offered my post for the purposes of presenting a Christian path toward using transgendered pronouns and have it not be a lie.

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And I answered it and said that there may be circumstances where it is the "Christ-like" thing to do.

File5 said:

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My opinion is that using pronouns incorrectly to facilitate a disorder is unhealthy, and contrary to what we're called to do.

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Amen brother. To do such a thing with the intent to cause division is sinful.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/causing_division

M1Buckeye said:

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The bible says that people are born male or female. Do you have a Biblical argument to back your assertions?

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I do not.

Out of curiosity - you mentioned that some people are born homosexual. Is there a biblical argument for that? There very well may be, I just don't know.

File5 said:

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If a trans person is offended (and makes it known!) by my doing this I can't help it, but I know I'll be vilified when it happens. I'll take a look at that link of the Theologian and Pastor to see what they have to say though, and report back

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I guess it depends on the circumstances. If a transgender "woman" insists on using the shower facilities reserved for females, it is not immoral to politely inform them that they must use the shower reserved for males.

M1Buckeye said:

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File5 said:

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My opinion is that using pronouns incorrectly to facilitate a disorder is unhealthy, and contrary to what we're called to do.

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Amen brother. To do such a thing with the intent to cause division is sinful.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/causing_division

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So much for that fence-sitting. When people pose valid arguments, you with put them on ignore or claim you're on the fence. Then when they tickle your ears, you reveal the "on the fence" claim is a lie.

It's clear you just want agreement.

M1Buckeye said:

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File5 said:

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If a trans person is offended (and makes it known!) by my doing this I can't help it, but I know I'll be vilified when it happens. I'll take a look at that link of the Theologian and Pastor to see what they have to say though, and report back

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I guess it depends on the circumstances. If a transgender "woman" insists on using the shower facilities reserved for females, it is not immoral to politely inform them that they must use the shower reserved for males.

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And it's not immoral for me to tell you to take your "informing" and shove it. Your guidance puts me in grave danger, and I'll use the correct facility for me.

And **** off with your scare quotes. It's laughable that you claim to be loving.

M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fair enough.

You were the one who put parentheses around Christians. Why did you do it?

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I don't believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian is, indeed, a Christian.

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I believe everyone who through grace has faith that Jesus is their Savior is a Christian.

How about you?

---

Mathew 7:21-23 ESV

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

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Yep, Jesus said that according to Scripture.

You are not Jesus.

And that is not an answer to the question.

What requirements are there for being a Christian than what I posted?

kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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The bible says that people are born male or female. Do you have a Biblical argument to back your assertions?

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I do not.

Out of curiosity - you mentioned that some people are born homosexual. Is there a biblical argument for that? There very well may be, I just don't know.

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I think I said that I "believe" that some people are born homosexual.

I do NOT know of a biblical argument for people being born homosexual.

I think it's POSSIBLE that the bible is condemning homosexuality between people who CHOOSE to be that way. For instance, heterosexual males that choose to frequent places wherein they can have sex with other men. But that's just my own PERSONAL conjecture. I am NOT making a statement, I am simply "thinking out loud". I do NOT want to be a heretic.

It is my IMPRESSION that there are MANY same-sex relationships wherein the partners follow Christ and are, by all accounts, Christ-like in how they treat others. It is my PRESUMPTION that they will be welcomed by Christ with open arms. But, again, that's just my guess.

Okay, I'm going to bow out. The OP cowardly blocked the one trans person in a discussion related to trans people. It's clear he just wants an echo chamber and will accuse anyone who disagrees of not being Christian. I'll leave this to the cishets.

dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fair enough.

You were the one who put parentheses around Christians. Why did you do it?

---

I don't believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian is, indeed, a Christian.

---

I believe everyone who through grace has faith that Jesus is their Savior is a Christian.

How about you?

---

Mathew 7:21-23 ESV

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

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What requirements are there for being a Christian than what I posted?

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I was communicating to you that Jesus will make that determination.

There were likely German SS troops, who claimed to be "Christian", that forced Jews into gas chambers. I wouldn't exactly proclaim them to be "Christian" but that's up to Jesus to decide.

Fair enough patriot.

dermdoc said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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sigh. this thread has happened enough times, hasn't it?

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Yep. It gets so tiresome.

Love God, love your neighbor.

Don't be a busybody.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I am not Jesus and neither are you. I know and love him, but I am not Him.

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I think we have a skewed vision of what the idea of "love" is. The angelic doctor would say that to love someone would be to will the best for regardless of circumstance. Many people now conflate that with universal acceptance

M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fair enough.

You were the one who put parentheses around Christians. Why did you do it?

---

I don't believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian is, indeed, a Christian.

---

I believe everyone who through grace has faith that Jesus is their Savior is a Christian.

How about you?

---

Mathew 7:21-23 ESV

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

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What requirements are there for being a Christian than what I posted?

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I was communicating to you that Jesus will make that determination.

There were likely German SS troops, who claimed to be "Christian", that forced Jews into gas chambers. I wouldn't exactly proclaim them to be "Christian" but that's up to Jesus to decide.

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Easy there fella

Joe Boudain said:

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dermdoc said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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sigh. this thread has happened enough times, hasn't it?

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Yep. It gets so tiresome.

Love God, love your neighbor.

Don't be a busybody.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I am not Jesus and neither are you. I know and love him, but I am not Him.

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I think we have a skewed vision of what the idea of "love" is. The angelic doctor would say that to love someone would be to will the best for regardless of circumstance. Many people know conflate that with universal acceptance

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Many believe that what is "good" is what they believe is good rather than what God says is good. Following God entails following God and not someone else, including ourselves.