kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

---

I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

---

If someone proclaims themselves to be Jesus, are you going to refer to them as "Jesus" in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Do you believe that people should be obligated to say words that they know to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

Would Jesus tell us to lie in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

bmks270 said:

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Truth vs delusion.

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Truth vs. a lie.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

---

Someone claiming to be an infant or Jesus is clearly delusional. A man who thinks they are a woman has underlying mental problems, likely stemming from childhood. I'd approach them like an anorexic with some kind of therapy that involves the entire family. Of course it would be extremely hard to find a therapist these days that even recognizes body dysphoria as a problem in the first place that needs treatment.

Regardless, telling an anorexic "you're too skinny!" and running away is not the best approach. I view transgenders the same way.

---

Agreed, there is a loving way to tell one the truth.

Phew! Your echo chamber is showing up. You can rest easy now. I think you're just waiting for Taliban Joe to show up. Maybe a couple others. That way you won't have to listen to any differing views.

People are going to think you mean Joe Biden when you say Taliban Joe.

Dilettante said:

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People are going to think you mean Joe Biden when you say Taliban Joe.

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Oooh good point. Just to clarify, I mean the poster name Joe Boudain who has publicly expressed his respect for the Taliban and his desire that we emulate them. Given he wants to throw me in prison for the rest of my life, I figure he and M1 will click like peas and carrots.

M1Buckeye said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

---

Someone claiming to be an infant or Jesus is clearly delusional. A man who thinks they are a woman has underlying mental problems, likely stemming from childhood. I'd approach them like an anorexic with some kind of therapy that involves the entire family. Of course it would be extremely hard to find a therapist these days that even recognizes body dysphoria as a problem in the first place that needs treatment.

Regardless, telling an anorexic "you're too skinny!" and running away is not the best approach. I view transgenders the same way.

---

Agreed, there is a loving way to tell one the truth.

---

What if you just not say anything?

And look, you bring up a good point as far as lying if you really believe you are if you call a trans person what they prefer to be called.

I do not get the jump to calling anyone who disagrees on this issue, which is non salvific, a fake Christian or a "Christian".

Pacifist

On a tangent, which has absolutely nothing to do with religion, I am genuinely curious if you consider yourself a homosexual. As you say, you were born with a woman's mind but have a wife. I do not know any trans folks so I'm genuinely curious. Sorry if that is too personal and/or weird.

I'll just say what I say to my kids all the time, and has become the defacto rule of our house: "Don't be a jerk."

In my opinion intentionally calling someone the wrong name or gender or anything really falls under the category of being a jerk.

It's like I've tried to explain to another poster here who has repeatedly misgendered me...there's no need to violate your conscience, and there's no need to intentionally insult me. You can find gender neutral terms. Replace any pronouns with my name. Be creative. The English language is flexible. You can be respectful without violating your conscience, or harming trans people.

In reality, though, I think some of these people will still push back against that because it's not about building respectful dialogue, but more about showing people who's boss. We live in a society where treating people with respect has sadly become more and more rare. We have a lot of clanging cymbals who go around proclaiming how right they are, how they have truth on their side, yet do so in ways that are not in love. They'll hide behind phrases like "speaking truth in love", when in reality what they're really doing is "speaking opinion in contempt".

But being creative and finding those respectful ways to communicate are for those who wish to learn and grow in understanding. Few, it seems, have any desire to do so. You see it on this thread with multiple people. I'm not demanding they agree, but there's got to be a baseline level of respect that must be reached before you can expect anyone to engage. If you wish to convince trans people that we're in error, then you aren't going to get anywhere by demanding we begin the engagement on terms you set and are non-starters for us.

dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

---

Someone claiming to be an infant or Jesus is clearly delusional. A man who thinks they are a woman has underlying mental problems, likely stemming from childhood. I'd approach them like an anorexic with some kind of therapy that involves the entire family. Of course it would be extremely hard to find a therapist these days that even recognizes body dysphoria as a problem in the first place that needs treatment.

Regardless, telling an anorexic "you're too skinny!" and running away is not the best approach. I view transgenders the same way.

---

Agreed, there is a loving way to tell one the truth.

---

What if you just not say anything?

And look, you bring up a good point as far as lying if you really believe you are if you call a trans person what they prefer to be called.

I do not get the jump to calling anyone who disagrees on this issue, which is non salvific, a fake Christian or a "Christian".

---

You obviously dislike and oppose this topic being discussed. Out of curiosity, what other social-issue or religious topics do you oppose being discussed in this discussion forum?

Quad Dog said:

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I'll just say what I say to my kids all the time, and has become the defacto rule of our house: "Don't be a jerk."

In my opinion intentionally calling someone the wrong name or gender or anything really falls under the category of being a jerk.

---

I agree with that.

The wrong name thing has always floored me. I'll often have people make assumptions about what my deadname was based on my legal name, and it just makes no sense. It's not even an issue of something like pronouns. My name is legally *this*. Calling me another name makes no sense, especially since my legal name is nowhere close to my deadname.

M1Buckeye said:

---

If someone proclaims themselves to be Jesus, are you going to refer to them as "Jesus" in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Do you believe that people should be obligated to say words that they know to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

Would Jesus tell us to lie in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

---

I think I've already answered the first two questions on page 1. And I'll leave others to speculate on the third question.

I don't think anyone should be 'obligated' to say anything. I think you should say what you mean. . . . but I feel like you've just repeating questions without addressing anything I said. I would prefer that you first respond to my post if we are to continue.

M1Buckeye said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

---

Someone claiming to be an infant or Jesus is clearly delusional. A man who thinks they are a woman has underlying mental problems, likely stemming from childhood. I'd approach them like an anorexic with some kind of therapy that involves the entire family. Of course it would be extremely hard to find a therapist these days that even recognizes body dysphoria as a problem in the first place that needs treatment.

Regardless, telling an anorexic "you're too skinny!" and running away is not the best approach. I view transgenders the same way.

---

Agreed, there is a loving way to tell one the truth.

---

What if you just not say anything?

And look, you bring up a good point as far as lying if you really believe you are if you call a trans person what they prefer to be called.

I do not get the jump to calling anyone who disagrees on this issue, which is non salvific, a fake Christian or a "Christian".

---

You obviously dislike and oppose this topic being discussed. Out of curiosity, what other social-issue or religious topics do you oppose being discussed in this discussion forum?

---

You obviously dislike and oppose any contrary opinions being discussed, because you imply their position isn't grounded in Christianity, imply they aren't Christian, and you mute the one trans person in the discussion about trans people.

Howdy Dammit said:

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Pacifist

On a tangent, which has absolutely nothing to do with religion, I am genuinely curious if you consider yourself a homosexual. As you say, you were born with a woman's mind but have a wife. I do not know any trans folks so I'm genuinely curious. Sorry if that is too personal and/or weird.

---

Yes, I don't really discuss my sexuality here. You can infer things based on my belief that trans women are women, and that I am still married to my wife.

M1Buckeye said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

---

Someone claiming to be an infant or Jesus is clearly delusional. A man who thinks they are a woman has underlying mental problems, likely stemming from childhood. I'd approach them like an anorexic with some kind of therapy that involves the entire family. Of course it would be extremely hard to find a therapist these days that even recognizes body dysphoria as a problem in the first place that needs treatment.

Regardless, telling an anorexic "you're too skinny!" and running away is not the best approach. I view transgenders the same way.

---

Agreed, there is a loving way to tell one the truth.

---

What if you just not say anything?

And look, you bring up a good point as far as lying if you really believe you are if you call a trans person what they prefer to be called.

I do not get the jump to calling anyone who disagrees on this issue, which is non salvific, a fake Christian or a "Christian".

---

You obviously dislike and oppose this topic being discussed. Out of curiosity, what other social-issue or religious topics do you oppose being discussed in this discussion forum?

---

I will discuss anything.

Imho, you made a huge judgemental jump calling people "Christians" or "worldly" when you know little or nothing about any of us.

Discuss the subject on its merit, do not make sweeping judgements.

We are brothers in Christ so it is all good. Just because we may not agree on non salvific issues does not mean I think you are a "Christian" or "worldly".

And I will admit I am tired of this subject.

Thanks

jrico2727 said:

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How would Jesus deal with Trans people? Like he did with tax collectors and prostitutes, he would sit and speak with them. He would listen and teach. He would also tell them to sin no more, just as he says to all of us.

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Amen.

Quote:

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And I will admit I am tired of this subject.

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Goodnes, you and me both. I just want to live my life. I often hear people say "why are we catering to people who make up 1% of the population?!" while then turning around and devoting an inordinate amount of time and energy going after that 1%.

M1Buckeye said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

---

I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

---

If someone proclaims themselves to be Jesus, are you going to refer to them as "Jesus" in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Do you believe that people should be obligated to say words that they know to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

Would Jesus tell us to lie in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

---

Just curious, are you married?

Have you ever told a fib when your wife asked you how she looked?
Or does this dress make me look fat?
I sure have. And if that makes me "worldly" so be it.

dermdoc said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

---

I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

---

If someone proclaims themselves to be Jesus, are you going to refer to them as "Jesus" in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Do you believe that people should be obligated to say words that they know to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

Would Jesus tell us to lie in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

---

Just curious, are you married?

Have you ever told a fib when your wife asked you how she looked?
Or does this dress make me look fat?
I sure have. And if that makes me "worldly" so be it.

---

I haven't. My wife is smokin

kurt vonnegut said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

---

My 2 cents -
To reject the pronouns as a lie, seems to me, to be a rejection that some people are transgender. And if that is the case, then I can understand seeing the pronouns as a lie. However, I would offer the following thought - I know what its like to be me and no one else. M1Buckeye knows what its like to be M1Buckeye and no one else. We all share common experiences, but it seems that it should be quite clear to anyone who has ever known someone else deeply, that many of our experiences are not the same. That is to say that we experience the world uniquely. We can listen to other people and learn something about who they are, how they think, and how they experience the world, but never fully know what its like to be them. Now, if I tell you that I believe I am an immortal half man - half alien from the planet Glorp and that this is how I experience the world. . . . well, I may just be nuts. But when millions of people share a common experience of feeling as though their biological sex and gender association are different, then it seems to ignore this is to, at least in part, to reject the idea that other people have experiences that are not the same as yours. If there was no issue with acknowledging that transgender people exist, I can't see an issue with using a pronoun that relates to a gender identity. I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

edit - weird that the bleeped out a part of the anatomy. . . . I trust you all can figure out what I typed though.

---

I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

dermdoc said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

---

I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

---

If someone proclaims themselves to be Jesus, are you going to refer to them as "Jesus" in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Do you believe that people should be obligated to say words that they know to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

Would Jesus tell us to lie in order to be considerate of another's feelings?

---

Just curious, are you married?

Have you ever told a fib when your wife asked you how she looked?
Or does this dress make me look fat?
I sure have. And if that makes me "worldly" so be it.

---

Describing one's appearance with regard to "how do I look?' is subjective. One's gender is objective.

M1Buckeye said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

---

My 2 cents -
To reject the pronouns as a lie, seems to me, to be a rejection that some people are transgender. And if that is the case, then I can understand seeing the pronouns as a lie. However, I would offer the following thought - I know what its like to be me and no one else. M1Buckeye knows what its like to be M1Buckeye and no one else. We all share common experiences, but it seems that it should be quite clear to anyone who has ever known someone else deeply, that many of our experiences are not the same. That is to say that we experience the world uniquely. We can listen to other people and learn something about who they are, how they think, and how they experience the world, but never fully know what its like to be them. Now, if I tell you that I believe I am an immortal half man - half alien from the planet Glorp and that this is how I experience the world. . . . well, I may just be nuts. But when millions of people share a common experience of feeling as though their biological sex and gender association are different, then it seems to ignore this is to, at least in part, to reject the idea that other people have experiences that are not the same as yours. If there was no issue with acknowledging that transgender people exist, I can't see an issue with using a pronoun that relates to a gender identity. I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

edit - weird that the bleeped out a part of the anatomy. . . . I trust you all can figure out what I typed though.

---

I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

---

Didn't Rahab lie? Didn't Abraham & Sarah lie about their relationship?

PacifistAg said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

kurt vonnegut said:

---

M1Buckeye said:

---

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

---

My 2 cents -
To reject the pronouns as a lie, seems to me, to be a rejection that some people are transgender. And if that is the case, then I can understand seeing the pronouns as a lie. However, I would offer the following thought - I know what its like to be me and no one else. M1Buckeye knows what its like to be M1Buckeye and no one else. We all share common experiences, but it seems that it should be quite clear to anyone who has ever known someone else deeply, that many of our experiences are not the same. That is to say that we experience the world uniquely. We can listen to other people and learn something about who they are, how they think, and how they experience the world, but never fully know what its like to be them. Now, if I tell you that I believe I am an immortal half man - half alien from the planet Glorp and that this is how I experience the world. . . . well, I may just be nuts. But when millions of people share a common experience of feeling as though their biological sex and gender association are different, then it seems to ignore this is to, at least in part, to reject the idea that other people have experiences that are not the same as yours. If there was no issue with acknowledging that transgender people exist, I can't see an issue with using a pronoun that relates to a gender identity. I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

edit - weird that the bleeped out a part of the anatomy. . . . I trust you all can figure out what I typed though.

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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Didn't Rahab lie? Didn't Abraham & Sarah lie about their relationship?

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Not to mention David, Jacob, Joseph, etc.

But was it a "subjective lie" or an "objective lie"?

I think the question in the OP is a legitimate question and a topic that should be discussed because it's a complicated issue.

My answer is that we need to view each situation with discernment to decide how we should respond.

In some cases to build a relationship with someone it may be best to respect their wish to be called a certain pronoun. Thus out of respect for that individual and my desire to go on further in friendship with them I would call them what they want. That's not to say I would always do that, it depends on the situation.

On the flip side there are cases where I would not comply. If I'm being bullied into using certain language to conform to an ideology that I disagree with then I will not.

dermdoc said:

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PacifistAg said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jesus also said, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

Does that mean that we are to tell males, who self-identify as females, that they are, indeed, female? Is it loving to go along with the person's wishes and refer to him as "she" and "her"? In other words, does Jesus expect us to say something that we KNOW to be untrue in order to be considerate of another's feelings? Did Jesus ask us to LIE?

For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

While we must love one another, lying to another is NOT a loving act. We must NOT condemn them, however. If you're going to condemn another, start with yourself for your own plethora of sins. Better yet, don't condemn anyone, unless you want Jesus to condemn you.

If I was close to a transgender person, I would gently and lovingly inform them that I will not refer to them as something that I know they are not. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to "rub it in their face", so to speak, but if put on the spot, I'm going, to tell the truth, and so should any Christian.

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My 2 cents -
To reject the pronouns as a lie, seems to me, to be a rejection that some people are transgender. And if that is the case, then I can understand seeing the pronouns as a lie. However, I would offer the following thought - I know what its like to be me and no one else. M1Buckeye knows what its like to be M1Buckeye and no one else. We all share common experiences, but it seems that it should be quite clear to anyone who has ever known someone else deeply, that many of our experiences are not the same. That is to say that we experience the world uniquely. We can listen to other people and learn something about who they are, how they think, and how they experience the world, but never fully know what its like to be them. Now, if I tell you that I believe I am an immortal half man - half alien from the planet Glorp and that this is how I experience the world. . . . well, I may just be nuts. But when millions of people share a common experience of feeling as though their biological sex and gender association are different, then it seems to ignore this is to, at least in part, to reject the idea that other people have experiences that are not the same as yours. If there was no issue with acknowledging that transgender people exist, I can't see an issue with using a pronoun that relates to a gender identity. I can call a trans woman 'she' and still understand that she was born with a *****. I don't see the dissonance in doing so.

edit - weird that the bleeped out a part of the anatomy. . . . I trust you all can figure out what I typed though.

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I re-read your post. I believe we must do as Jesus instructed and treat one another with love and consideration. I don't believe there is an issue if, for instance, Jeff asks to be called Mary. I simply disagree that a Christian is supposed to LIE by referring to "Mary" as a female. If someone can make the BIBLICAL argument that a Christian should lie, then I'll be persuaded to change my position.

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Didn't Rahab lie? Didn't Abraham & Sarah lie about their relationship?

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Not to mention David, Jacob, Joseph, etc.

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I believe it's morally acceptable, at times, to lie. For instance, if one was protecting Jews from Nazis, it would be moral to deny harboring any Jews.

I'm actually on the fence, so to speak, about whether a Christian should refer to a transgender woman as a "she" or "her", and that's why I created this thread.

dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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dermdoc said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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For the sake of this discussion, let's presuppose that the answer is "YES". Does it follow, then, that we are to treat others in the same manner?

For instance, there are some grown adults that claim to be infants. Should we go along with their claim?

What about a person who claims to be Jesus? Are we to treat them as if they are Jesus in order to be considerate of their feelings?

Clearly, the answer is, NO.

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Someone claiming to be an infant or Jesus is clearly delusional. A man who thinks they are a woman has underlying mental problems, likely stemming from childhood. I'd approach them like an anorexic with some kind of therapy that involves the entire family. Of course it would be extremely hard to find a therapist these days that even recognizes body dysphoria as a problem in the first place that needs treatment.

Regardless, telling an anorexic "you're too skinny!" and running away is not the best approach. I view transgenders the same way.

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Agreed, there is a loving way to tell one the truth.

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What if you just not say anything?

And look, you bring up a good point as far as lying if you really believe you are if you call a trans person what they prefer to be called.

I do not get the jump to calling anyone who disagrees on this issue, which is non salvific, a fake Christian or a "Christian".

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You obviously dislike and oppose this topic being discussed. Out of curiosity, what other social-issue or religious topics do you oppose being discussed in this discussion forum?

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Imho, you made a huge judgemental jump calling people "Christians" or "worldly" when you know little or nothing about any of us.

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I didn't accuse anyone here of not being "Christian" or being "worldly". I was speaking in general terms.

Frok said:

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I think the question in the OP is a legitimate question and a topic that should be discussed because it's a complicated issue.

My answer is that we need to view each situation with discernment to decide how we should respond.

In some cases to build a relationship with someone it may be best to respect their wish to be called a certain pronoun. Thus out of respect for that individual and my desire to go on further in friendship with them I would call them what they want. That's not to say I would always do that, it depends on the situation.

On the flip side there are cases where I would not comply. If I'm being bullied into using certain language to conform to an ideology that I disagree with then I will not.

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You are a person of sound mind and reason. Thank you for your perspective.

This is a bald-faced lie. You aren't on the fence. You've used words like "truth" and "know" throughout and have made it clear you think it wrong to refer to me, for example, with she/her pronouns.