Singapore out performs east Asia. But is well outdone by the US and Western Europe in most metrics
Unpopular opinion: We (Catholics) need to be more like the taliban
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Last: 3 yr ago by Joe Boudain
Singapore is an example of the government doing it your way?Joe Boudain said:Aggrad08 said:RebelE Infantry said:Aggrad08 said:Joe Boudain said:
I'd rather have a king who believe his eternal salvation rides on the treatment of his subjects than a President who sells out to special interests every 4 years.
What history says is you get a king who says the former and lives the latter.
We tried it your way-it wasn't great
I see what you're saying, but looking around I wouldn't say this ever-accelerating degenerate hellscape is any better.
Name one country with a higher quality of life for its people doing it your way rather than modern methods
People are on the internet too much to realize how much better so much of the world has become
Singapore.
Which metrics?Aggrad08 said:
Singapore out performs east Asia. But is well outdone by the US and Western Europe in most metrics
Life expectancy? Infant Mortality, Violent Crime, GDP per capita?
It's the closest with a high quality of life.Martin Q. Blank said:Singapore is an example of the government doing it your way?Joe Boudain said:Aggrad08 said:RebelE Infantry said:Aggrad08 said:Joe Boudain said:
I'd rather have a king who believe his eternal salvation rides on the treatment of his subjects than a President who sells out to special interests every 4 years.
What history says is you get a king who says the former and lives the latter.
We tried it your way-it wasn't great
I see what you're saying, but looking around I wouldn't say this ever-accelerating degenerate hellscape is any better.
Name one country with a higher quality of life for its people doing it your way rather than modern methods
People are on the internet too much to realize how much better so much of the world has become
Singapore.
Are we talking about the same Singapore?Joe Boudain said:It's the closest with a high quality of life.Martin Q. Blank said:Singapore is an example of the government doing it your way?Joe Boudain said:Aggrad08 said:RebelE Infantry said:Aggrad08 said:Joe Boudain said:
I'd rather have a king who believe his eternal salvation rides on the treatment of his subjects than a President who sells out to special interests every 4 years.
What history says is you get a king who says the former and lives the latter.
We tried it your way-it wasn't great
I see what you're saying, but looking around I wouldn't say this ever-accelerating degenerate hellscape is any better.
Name one country with a higher quality of life for its people doing it your way rather than modern methods
People are on the internet too much to realize how much better so much of the world has become
Singapore.
Your OP: We need to be more like them, intolerance not tolerance is a Christian virtue. Jesus Christ is priest, Prophet, king of the World, and any society that does not claim him as such is doomed to failure.
Less than 10% of Singapore is Catholic.
I think this thread is an argument for separation of church and state.
The ones in power will never be your church..even when they claim to be..and they will use it to oppress you.
Welcome to Earth, it's not our home.
The ones in power will never be your church..even when they claim to be..and they will use it to oppress you.
Welcome to Earth, it's not our home.
world happiness report, Human development index, yes GDP per capita plays into those. Singapore is piss poor on human rights and press rights. And I'm not sure how much it helps your claim since Singapore is a parliamentary republic not a monarchy so they are authoritarian but their actual model is very similar to ours. It's also a city-state which limits some comparisons. It's also pretty democratic socialist when it comes to things like healthcare and caring for the poor.Joe Boudain said:Which metrics?Aggrad08 said:
Singapore out performs east Asia. But is well outdone by the US and Western Europe in most metrics
Life expectancy? Infant Mortality, Violent Crime, GDP per capita?
Really the only thing it seems like you can point to about Singapore as similar to your "king who agrees with me model" is that it's authoritarian on social issues
You guys don't seem to be able to draw congruence between societies without assuming they're identical.Martin Q. Blank said:Are we talking about the same Singapore?Joe Boudain said:It's the closest with a high quality of life.Martin Q. Blank said:Singapore is an example of the government doing it your way?Joe Boudain said:Aggrad08 said:RebelE Infantry said:Aggrad08 said:Joe Boudain said:
I'd rather have a king who believe his eternal salvation rides on the treatment of his subjects than a President who sells out to special interests every 4 years.
What history says is you get a king who says the former and lives the latter.
We tried it your way-it wasn't great
I see what you're saying, but looking around I wouldn't say this ever-accelerating degenerate hellscape is any better.
Name one country with a higher quality of life for its people doing it your way rather than modern methods
People are on the internet too much to realize how much better so much of the world has become
Singapore.
Your OP: We need to be more like them, intolerance not tolerance is a Christian virtue. Jesus Christ is priest, Prophet, king of the World, and any society that does not claim him as such is doomed to failure.
Less than 10% of Singapore is Catholic.
It's a Parliamentary Republic but it's not, it's gotten better since the passing of Lee Kuan Yew, but it's still closer to a benevolent dictatorship than it is a republic.Aggrad08 said:world happiness report, Human development index, yes GDP per capita plays into those. Singapore is piss poor on human rights and press rights. And I'm not sure how much it helps your claim since Singapore is a parliamentary republic not a monarchy so they are authoritarian but their actual model is very similar to ours. It's also a city-state which limits some comparisons. It's also pretty democratic socialist when it comes to things like healthcare and caring for the poor.Joe Boudain said:Which metrics?Aggrad08 said:
Singapore out performs east Asia. But is well outdone by the US and Western Europe in most metrics
Life expectancy? Infant Mortality, Violent Crime, GDP per capita?
Really the only thing it seems like you can point to about Singapore as similar to your "king who agrees with me model" is that it's authoritarian on social issues
I'm 100% pro democratic socialism in the Japanese/Singaporean/Nordic variety. I wish we had massive maternal leave, universal healthcare and universal education; those are good things to be worked towards although they are massively inefficient unless done correctly like the examples I listed.
I think Singapore is the perfect sort of government that cares for it's people and gives them large amounts of economic and personal freedom provided they don't stray from the accepted moral code.
And why is that better than the Western European model that has the safety net, personal freedom, actual democracy, moral freedom, press freedom, strong presumption of innocence etc?
It seems you view jailing drug users and gays as more valuable to society than those other things. Otherwise I simply don't see the benefit
It seems you view jailing drug users and gays as more valuable to society than those other things. Otherwise I simply don't see the benefit
I don't believe "actual democracy" actually exists nor that it's beneficial if it in fact does exist. Moral freedom is another name for moral relativism, which is another name for "no morality actually exists, except for the one that I say does, which is you can do whatever you want to as long as it doesn't imminently and immediately hurt anyone too much". Long story short, I don't consider most of what you're holding up as a good as an actual good.Aggrad08 said:
And why is that better than the Western European model that has the safety net, personal freedom, actual democracy, moral freedom, press freedom, strong presumption of innocence etc?
It seems you view jailing drug users and gays as more valuable to society than those other things. Otherwise I simply don't see the benefit
We have a murder rate 25 times that of Singapore, believe it or not our violent crime rate is actually 523x that of Singapore. It's not just drug users and gays that they're jailing, it's all matter of petty criminals who don't grow up to be hardened criminals because they have the whip cracked on them before they get out of hand.
Fair enough. I think the first world passed you by on this one. We decided harm to others and infringing the rights of others are where force should be involved. And Western Europe has figured out the low crime rate thing as well.
Republics are democratic. That's what I'm speaking of. Direct influence over governors and legislators by the people.
Jailing people for weed and such is dying quickly. It's hard to say exactly what harm is being done by allowing this-but I suspect your not too concerned with the data on that count. If you are please point to the meaningful metric.
. You're not alone the saudis and Taliban think this more strongly than Singapore. In fact popular opinion in Singapore toward LGBT appears to be moving quickly. I'd wager it won't be too long before the Middle East and certain rather miserable dictatorships are all you have left on that front.
Moral relativism is true regardless of your belief. Moral freedom only means that certain people aren't going to use guns to enforce their moral relativism upon you
Republics are democratic. That's what I'm speaking of. Direct influence over governors and legislators by the people.
Jailing people for weed and such is dying quickly. It's hard to say exactly what harm is being done by allowing this-but I suspect your not too concerned with the data on that count. If you are please point to the meaningful metric.
. You're not alone the saudis and Taliban think this more strongly than Singapore. In fact popular opinion in Singapore toward LGBT appears to be moving quickly. I'd wager it won't be too long before the Middle East and certain rather miserable dictatorships are all you have left on that front.
Moral relativism is true regardless of your belief. Moral freedom only means that certain people aren't going to use guns to enforce their moral relativism upon you
This just sounds like what you believe. You just swap the bolded portion out for something else.Quote:
no morality actually exists, except for the one that I say does, which is you can do whatever you want to as long as it doesn't imminently and immediately hurt anyone too much
Who's right doesn't really change what's going to happen. If you can't convince people you're right, your divine truth is going to be ignored. Currently, Catholicism is not convincing enough people it's right, so laws don't seem like they're made with Catholicism in mind.
Barring some kind of divine intervention or major restructuring, it doesn't seem to me like the world is going to get dramatically more Catholic in the next 30 years. You (and I) will probably die in a world where traditionalist Catholics are even less content than they are now.
I think you agree that's where things are heading, and that's not an acceptable outcome. That's why you admire the terrorists. They managed to grab power without having to convince others.
Is that generally true?
That's my point, people will argue that there's no such thing as objective morality, but mine absolutely is wrong. I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of what you're saying but I think the Church needs to get a lot smaller before it gets a lot larger. I believe what you're seeing is the "cultural catholics" and the lukewarm cradle catholic's grandmas have died off and they no longer feel the need to identify as Catholic.Dilettante said:This just sounds like what you believe. You just swap the bolded portion out for something else.Quote:
no morality actually exists, except for the one that I say does, which is you can do whatever you want to as long as it doesn't imminently and immediately hurt anyone too much
Who's right doesn't really change what's going to happen. If you can't convince people you're right, your divine truth is going to be ignored. Currently, Catholicism is not convincing enough people it's right, so laws don't seem like they're made with Catholicism in mind.
Barring some kind of divine intervention or major restructuring, it doesn't seem to me like the world is going to get dramatically more Catholic in the next 30 years. You (and I) will probably die in a world where traditionalist Catholics are even less content than they are now.
I think you agree that's where things are heading, and that's not an acceptable outcome. That's why you admire the terrorists. They managed to grab power without having to convince others.
Is that generally true?
Anecdotally, I can tell you that the core of traditional catholics is getting stronger and larger at the moment, and will continue to do so; in my estimation.
To your last question I would say 'yes'
The main way people find most religions is from their parents introducing them to it, and from it being the dominant religion of their culture.
I think if Catholicism gets a lot smaller, that trend will be hard to reverse. It's harder to convince adults of things than kids.
I think if Catholicism gets a lot smaller, that trend will be hard to reverse. It's harder to convince adults of things than kids.
I don't know if I agree and I'll explain. There are currently around 75,000,000 or so self-identified catholics in the USA. Of those, I would probably generously label 20,000,000 of them as "actual catholics" based on holding the bare minimums of what my Church says is necessary. So we can shrink by nearly 75% without actually losing anything in my estimation.Dilettante said:
The main way people find most religions is from their parents introducing them to it, and from it being the dominant religion of their culture.
I think if Catholicism gets a lot smaller, that trend will be hard to reverse. It's harder to convince adults of things than kids.
Of those who are traditional or at least orthodox in their belief structure, we're having a lot of kids. We're spending a lot of time with our kids and bringing them up in the faith and sending our children to Catholic school. That's why I think there will be a rebound.
There's some equilibrium, right?
There's rate constants describing how often people with little exposure, cultural exposure, and heavy exposure end up as traditional Catholics, and some rate at which traditional Catholics decay back into cultural Catholics or some form of heathen.
I don't think you can lose only cultural Catholics. I think a decrease in the number of cultural Catholics should always be associated with a decrease in traditional Catholics.
I might model it for kicks later.
There's rate constants describing how often people with little exposure, cultural exposure, and heavy exposure end up as traditional Catholics, and some rate at which traditional Catholics decay back into cultural Catholics or some form of heathen.
I don't think you can lose only cultural Catholics. I think a decrease in the number of cultural Catholics should always be associated with a decrease in traditional Catholics.
I might model it for kicks later.
Joe Boudain said:
I have nothing but respect, grudging admiration, and disgust at the taliban. They have kept their eye on the prize and haven't been deterred from their goal of an Islamic Caliphate in Afghanistan.
There will be no abortions nor pride parades in Kabul. No rainbow flags flown over embassies. Their relationship to Allah informs their actions and influences every facet of society.
We need to be more like them, intolerance not tolerance is a Christian virtue. Jesus Christ is priest, Prophet, king of the World, and any society that does not claim him as such is doomed to failure.
I support the Taliban fully.
Move to Afghanistan
craigernaught said:
Move to Afghanistan
I think I'll vote to have all of them move here. They are hard working and industrious.
Never thought I would see an American Christian say this.codker92 said:Joe Boudain said:
I have nothing but respect, grudging admiration, and disgust at the taliban. They have kept their eye on the prize and haven't been deterred from their goal of an Islamic Caliphate in Afghanistan.
There will be no abortions nor pride parades in Kabul. No rainbow flags flown over embassies. Their relationship to Allah informs their actions and influences every facet of society.
We need to be more like them, intolerance not tolerance is a Christian virtue. Jesus Christ is priest, Prophet, king of the World, and any society that does not claim him as such is doomed to failure.
I support the Taliban fully.
I wish you would say that to parents of soldiers killed there.
Disgusting.
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I am not Catholic so I assume I am an "other".
But I am a Christian who loves the Lord.
And if "lukewarm" means I follow the Lord's commandments of love God, love your neighbor then so be it.
All people are made in God's image.
But I am a Christian who loves the Lord.
And if "lukewarm" means I follow the Lord's commandments of love God, love your neighbor then so be it.
All people are made in God's image.
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And it seems like there is a lot of focus on this temporal world and life.
Our Lord said that His kingdom was not of this world.
Our Lord said that His kingdom was not of this world.
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dermdoc said:Never thought I would see an American Christian say this.codker92 said:Joe Boudain said:
I have nothing but respect, grudging admiration, and disgust at the taliban. They have kept their eye on the prize and haven't been deterred from their goal of an Islamic Caliphate in Afghanistan.
There will be no abortions nor pride parades in Kabul. No rainbow flags flown over embassies. Their relationship to Allah informs their actions and influences every facet of society.
We need to be more like them, intolerance not tolerance is a Christian virtue. Jesus Christ is priest, Prophet, king of the World, and any society that does not claim him as such is doomed to failure.
I support the Taliban fully.
I wish you would say that to parents of soldiers killed there.
Disgusting.
No mercy for socialists. End the crusade now.
Quote:
Of those who are traditional or at least orthodox in their belief structure, we're having a lot of kids. We're spending a lot of time with our kids and bringing them up in the faith and sending our children to Catholic school. That's why I think there will be a rebound.
You say that as if this is a new thing, but I don't see any reason to believe that. This is literally the status quo and has been for a long, long time. You're not going to change long-term trends by following the status quo.
Then you haven't been paying attention. Though a distinct minority, there has always been a contingent that wants a Christian version of what many Mideast Muslim countries have. The only thing they disagree with is the religion behind it, not the tactics and enforcement. It's why separation of church and state is so important.Quote:
Never thought I would see an American Christian say this.
Beer Baron said:Then you haven't been paying attention. Though a distinct minority, there has always been a contingent that wants a Christian version of what many Mideast Muslim countries have. The only thing they disagree with is the religion behind it, not the tactics and enforcement. It's why separation of church and state is so important.Quote:
Never thought I would see an American Christian say this.
What's going on now is a pseudo crusade against Islam. End it now.
codker92 said:dermdoc said:Never thought I would see an American Christian say this.codker92 said:Joe Boudain said:
I have nothing but respect, grudging admiration, and disgust at the taliban. They have kept their eye on the prize and haven't been deterred from their goal of an Islamic Caliphate in Afghanistan.
There will be no abortions nor pride parades in Kabul. No rainbow flags flown over embassies. Their relationship to Allah informs their actions and influences every facet of society.
We need to be more like them, intolerance not tolerance is a Christian virtue. Jesus Christ is priest, Prophet, king of the World, and any society that does not claim him as such is doomed to failure.
I support the Taliban fully.
I wish you would say that to parents of soldiers killed there.
Disgusting.
No mercy for socialists. End the crusade now.
What does fully supporting the Taliban have anything to do with socialism?
The Taliban are a bunch of thugs who hate women and non Muslims. They kill people caught with a Bible.
And you support them.
Very revealing.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Yeah I didn't get this either. Most of the so-called "bad" Catholics were raised in the same type of strict, devout home he says the current "good" ones are creating for their kids. Or at least the "bad" ones' parents or grandparents were. At some point despite the "good" upbringing, lots of them lapsed into "bad" territory. I don't see any reason why the current crop of kids growing up in "good" Catholic households won't lapse at the same or higher rates than generations before have already.Rocag said:Quote:
Of those who are traditional or at least orthodox in their belief structure, we're having a lot of kids. We're spending a lot of time with our kids and bringing them up in the faith and sending our children to Catholic school. That's why I think there will be a rebound.
You say that as if this is a new thing, but I don't see any reason to believe that. This is literally the status quo and has been for a long, long time. You're not going to change long-term trends by following the status quo.
Beer Baron said:Yeah I didn't get this either. Most of the so-called "bad" Catholics were raised in the same type of strict, devout home he says the current "good" ones are creating for their kids. Or at least the "bad" ones' parents or grandparents were. At some point despite the "good" upbringing, lots of them lapsed into "bad" territory. I don't see any reason why the current crop of kids growing up in "good" Catholic households won't lapse at the same or higher rates than generations before have already.Rocag said:Quote:
Of those who are traditional or at least orthodox in their belief structure, we're having a lot of kids. We're spending a lot of time with our kids and bringing them up in the faith and sending our children to Catholic school. That's why I think there will be a rebound.
You say that as if this is a new thing, but I don't see any reason to believe that. This is literally the status quo and has been for a long, long time. You're not going to change long-term trends by following the status quo.
Now maybe, just maybe, you understand why Vatican II was convened. Not when Catholicism was in decline - but rather - when it was on auto-pilot.
PabloSerna said:Beer Baron said:Yeah I didn't get this either. Most of the so-called "bad" Catholics were raised in the same type of strict, devout home he says the current "good" ones are creating for their kids. Or at least the "bad" ones' parents or grandparents were. At some point despite the "good" upbringing, lots of them lapsed into "bad" territory. I don't see any reason why the current crop of kids growing up in "good" Catholic households won't lapse at the same or higher rates than generations before have already.Rocag said:Quote:
Of those who are traditional or at least orthodox in their belief structure, we're having a lot of kids. We're spending a lot of time with our kids and bringing them up in the faith and sending our children to Catholic school. That's why I think there will be a rebound.
You say that as if this is a new thing, but I don't see any reason to believe that. This is literally the status quo and has been for a long, long time. You're not going to change long-term trends by following the status quo.
Now maybe, just maybe, you understand why Vatican II was convened. Not when Catholicism was in decline - but rather - when it was on auto-pilot.
Yes I'm sure Beer Baron has had a lot of soul searching regarding the necessity of Vatican II.
Hey guys! Did I miss anything.
My interest in this ranks right up there with L. Ron Hubbard's later editions of Dianetics.
schmendeler said:
much like a tourbillion, the practicality of the catholic church governing a modern society has passed its prime.
While I, as a card carrying Orthodox Christian, do not want to see a Roman Catholic Papal Political resurgence I would not go so fast as to say it's past it's prime.
We assume things will continue on this path. Society will collapse... The Church will still be there. One day I think we will see Kings and Emperors again too. Probably without running water and electricity to boot.
I will say, the OP was right... this is an unpopular opinion
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