Makes me think of Greg Locke. Cheated on his wife with the married church secretary. Divorced his wife, and married the secretary. Still a pastor.
It's inexcusable.
It's inexcusable.
as opposed to a particular other denomination that has bounced around sexual abusers to different parishes? i know you're not catholic, but i think it's funny to single out protestants on that one.Orthodox Texan said:I agree but there's nothing to stop pastors from doing it. All they have to do is win some people over or start a new church. Hence the almighty power of the individual in Protestant churches.c-jags said:i am all about forgiveness. i know a lot of people that have cheated and then were able to save their marriages and have a blessed life honoring Christ afterwards.Duncan Idaho said:
I get trying to help these guys get on the right track and possibly save their marriages but I can not wrap my head around putting them in positions of leadership much less letting them preach on a regular basis.
However, that happens and you're out of vocational ministry forever in my opinion. That's a personal take and not necessarily a take i get from the Bible, but logically that just only leaves room for divisiveness and issues down the road. I know more than once where the affair from a new pastor at an old church came out after the fact and the church had a strong split because of it. it's almost always known by some and then hidden.
Not saying they can't be restored and continue doing ministry in other areas, but it takes a lot of arrogance to think you can get back in the saddle as a full time minister after that.
i don't agree with you on a ton, but yeah. i just don't understand pastors or churches to see the necessity of keeping people like that in a position of authority. speaks to the cult of personality i hate to say.PacifistAg said:
Makes me think of Greg Locke. Cheated on his wife with the married church secretary. Divorced his wife, and married the secretary. Still a pastor.
It's inexcusable.
Ya they got major issues but similar situations are seen at the beginning of the reformation as it bleeds through today. There were numerous scandals during that time with leaders throughout Europe. Orthodox aren't perfect either but it's far more strict.c-jags said:as opposed to a particular other denomination that has bounced around sexual abusers to different parishes? i know you're not catholic, but i think it's funny to single out protestants on that one.Orthodox Texan said:I agree but there's nothing to stop pastors from doing it. All they have to do is win some people over or start a new church. Hence the almighty power of the individual in Protestant churches.c-jags said:i am all about forgiveness. i know a lot of people that have cheated and then were able to save their marriages and have a blessed life honoring Christ afterwards.Duncan Idaho said:
I get trying to help these guys get on the right track and possibly save their marriages but I can not wrap my head around putting them in positions of leadership much less letting them preach on a regular basis.
However, that happens and you're out of vocational ministry forever in my opinion. That's a personal take and not necessarily a take i get from the Bible, but logically that just only leaves room for divisiveness and issues down the road. I know more than once where the affair from a new pastor at an old church came out after the fact and the church had a strong split because of it. it's almost always known by some and then hidden.
Not saying they can't be restored and continue doing ministry in other areas, but it takes a lot of arrogance to think you can get back in the saddle as a full time minister after that.
The Orthodox Church sees marriage differently than many in the west. It's a sacrament and held at a higher standard. Repentance, humility, and forgiveness are available to anybody but that does not mean a priest can continue to lead his parish after divorce or a sex scandal. His new duty can be found elsewhere. These topics are nothing new though. The reformers took similar issues into their own hands as it continues today. I'm sure your former pastor did a lot for people but I guess it's a different situation since he's outside the Church. I would guess The Holy Spirit worked that out according to your testimony.ramblin_ag02 said:
Best pastor I ever had was run out of his first megachurch after a giant sex scandal. He left the ministry for decades but came back to work at a small community church. He had a big impact on my life and many other people's lives. He was humbled by the whole experience and was greatful to God to get a chance to preach, evangelize and lead again. He's still no perfect by any means, but it would have been a shame if he could never run a church again.
If you're looking for perfect people who have never sinned, then you're going to either be looking for a long time, or you're going to hire a bunch of liars. Repentence,humility, and forgiveness are the essence of Christianity, and that should apply to clergy as much as laiety
I don't think people are advocating for only having pastors who have never sinned, I think its more that the specific sins that would amount to abuse of one's authority could reasonably be disqualifying for that or higher positions of authority in the future.ramblin_ag02 said:
Best pastor I ever had was run out of his first megachurch after a giant sex scandal. He left the ministry for decades but came back to work at a small community church. He had a big impact on my life and many other people's lives. He was humbled by the whole experience and was greatful to God to get a chance to preach, evangelize and lead again. He's still no perfect by any means, but it would have been a shame if he could never run a church again.
If you're looking for perfect people who have never sinned, then you're going to either be looking for a long time, or you're going to hire a bunch of liars. Repentence,humility, and forgiveness are the essence of Christianity, and that should apply to clergy as much as laiety
out of curiosity, why can't a widower remarry?Orthodox Texan said:Ya they got major issues but similar situations are seen at the beginning of the reformation as it bleeds through today. There were numerous scandals during that time with leaders throughout Europe. Orthodox aren't perfect either but it's far more strict.c-jags said:as opposed to a particular other denomination that has bounced around sexual abusers to different parishes? i know you're not catholic, but i think it's funny to single out protestants on that one.Orthodox Texan said:I agree but there's nothing to stop pastors from doing it. All they have to do is win some people over or start a new church. Hence the almighty power of the individual in Protestant churches.c-jags said:i am all about forgiveness. i know a lot of people that have cheated and then were able to save their marriages and have a blessed life honoring Christ afterwards.Duncan Idaho said:
I get trying to help these guys get on the right track and possibly save their marriages but I can not wrap my head around putting them in positions of leadership much less letting them preach on a regular basis.
However, that happens and you're out of vocational ministry forever in my opinion. That's a personal take and not necessarily a take i get from the Bible, but logically that just only leaves room for divisiveness and issues down the road. I know more than once where the affair from a new pastor at an old church came out after the fact and the church had a strong split because of it. it's almost always known by some and then hidden.
Not saying they can't be restored and continue doing ministry in other areas, but it takes a lot of arrogance to think you can get back in the saddle as a full time minister after that.
"Concerning ordination, married men may be ordained to the diaconate and priesthood. However, they must be married only one time to a woman who also has been married only one time. If a man is a widower, he too may be ordained, provided that he has not remarried, and he may not marry after his ordination. The Tradition of the Orthodox Church is that both the priest as well as his wife must have been married only one timeto each other. And this would apply regardless of whether the person is no longer married due to divorce or to widowhood.
There have been a few rare exceptions to this, but I emphasize that in each case it is a "rare" exception, if not an abnormality which is not generally in keeping with the Tradition and canons of the Church."
Orthodox Texan said:
"Concerning ordination, married men may be ordained to the diaconate and priesthood. However, they must be married only one time to a woman who also has been married only one time. If a man is a widower, he too may be ordained, provided that he has not remarried, and he may not marry after his ordination. The Tradition of the Orthodox Church is that both the priest as well as his wife must have been married only one timeto each other. And this would apply regardless of whether the person is no longer married due to divorce or to widowhood.
There have been a few rare exceptions to this, but I emphasize that in each case it is a "rare" exception, if not an abnormality which is not generally in keeping with the Tradition and canons of the Church."
PacifistAg said:
In the context of which I'm speaking, as a trans woman and member of the LGBTQIA community, I think it's clear what I'm talking about. I'm not going to play this game though. Get off social media...stay on...doesn't matter to me. For me, I've found a community of Christians, and others, that's healthy for me. For people like me, social media is often the only place that type of community can be found.
It's clear what I'm talking about though, so y'all can debate endlessly about it if you want. I was simply explaining why "get off Twitter" isn't some broad brush solution.
AGC said:Martin Q. Blank said:
What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.
Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
If you admit that the first 300 years of black experience in the New World has lingering multi-generational effects that persist to this day, you are an unredeemable SJW. Only self-loathers try to learn anything from the past.Fredd said:AGC said:Martin Q. Blank said:
What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.
Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
How has chandler gone SJW? Just curious - I haven't been listening to his stuff the last few years
94chem said:If you admit that the first 300 years of black experience in the New World has lingering multi-generational effects that persist to this day, you are an unredeemable SJW. Only self-loathers try to learn anything from the past.Fredd said:AGC said:Martin Q. Blank said:
What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.
Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
How has chandler gone SJW? Just curious - I haven't been listening to his stuff the last few years
94chem said:If you admit that the first 300 years of black experience in the New World has lingering multi-generational effects that persist to this day, you are an unredeemable SJW. Only self-loathers try to learn anything from the past.Fredd said:AGC said:Martin Q. Blank said:
What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.
Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
How has chandler gone SJW? Just curious - I haven't been listening to his stuff the last few years
Fredd said:AGC said:Martin Q. Blank said:
What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.
Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
How has chandler gone SJW? Just curious - I haven't been listening to his stuff the last few years
Saxsoon said:
There is a large gap between critical race theory which is anti-Christian and discussing race relations
Saxsoon said:
There is a large gap between critical race theory which is anti-Christian and discussing race relations
AGC said:94chem said:If you admit that the first 300 years of black experience in the New World has lingering multi-generational effects that persist to this day, you are an unredeemable SJW. Only self-loathers try to learn anything from the past.Fredd said:AGC said:Martin Q. Blank said:
What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.
Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
How has chandler gone SJW? Just curious - I haven't been listening to his stuff the last few years
This would be the motte of the motte and bailey fallacy. Or a straw man. Either way it's not a good look.
94chem said:AGC said:94chem said:If you admit that the first 300 years of black experience in the New World has lingering multi-generational effects that persist to this day, you are an unredeemable SJW. Only self-loathers try to learn anything from the past.Fredd said:AGC said:Martin Q. Blank said:
What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.
Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
How has chandler gone SJW? Just curious - I haven't been listening to his stuff the last few years
This would be the motte of the motte and bailey fallacy. Or a straw man. Either way it's not a good look.
I don't know what you are talking about. I do know that my white friend who adopted black boys from Africa had to teach them some special rules that apply to them before they started driving. Whether this is a commentary on their community, their state, the US, or the entire world, the issue is real. It is also real that pointing it out makes some people uncomfortable, cover their eyes and ears, shoot the messenger, point out all the places in the world that have more bigotry (which is just about everywhere), etc. Calling someone an SJW is like calling someone a Karen or a snowflake. If you're gonna use a tired cliche', be prepared to provide specific evidence.
94chem said:AGC said:94chem said:If you admit that the first 300 years of black experience in the New World has lingering multi-generational effects that persist to this day, you are an unredeemable SJW. Only self-loathers try to learn anything from the past.Fredd said:AGC said:Martin Q. Blank said:
What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.
Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
How has chandler gone SJW? Just curious - I haven't been listening to his stuff the last few years
This would be the motte of the motte and bailey fallacy. Or a straw man. Either way it's not a good look.
I don't know what you are talking about. I do know that my white friend who adopted black boys from Africa had to teach them some special rules that apply to them before they started driving. Whether this is a commentary on their community, their state, the US, or the entire world, the issue is real. It is also real that pointing it out makes some people uncomfortable, cover their eyes and ears, shoot the messenger, point out all the places in the world that have more bigotry (which is just about everywhere), etc. Calling someone an SJW is like calling someone a Karen or a snowflake. If you're gonna use a tired cliche', be prepared to provide specific evidence.
RebAg13 said:
Tough look on the "origin story"