dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I'm no theologian by any means, but it's one of those instances that if you're just coasting through life without any regard to the call and purpose Christ has for you, then you may not have really been regenerated like you think. You're not saved by saying a prayer in church one day. I believe Piper's argument is that if your life has boiled down to lounging on the beach without any regard to the cross of Christ and dying to self, then you may not really be saved. It may be uncomfortable to hear but there's a pretty good chance it's true.

I think the seashell example is a bit sensationalized however his point is valid as we Americans make these grand retirement plans that revolve around leisure, comfort and an attitude of ourselves being god.

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Fair enough. But he is a proclaimed "seven point Calvinist" so nothing we do has any bearing on whether we are saved or not, correct?

God chooses who He will save and who he will not in Piper's theology. So how could one "lose" their salvation if they have no control over it at all? And how can what we do or not do have any effect on our salvation?

And please understand I am just throwing the question out and not trying to criticize or question you.

It just makes no sense.

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Orthodox Texan said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I'm no theologian by any means, but it's one of those instances that if you're just coasting through life without any regard to the call and purpose Christ has for you, then you may not have really been regenerated like you think. You're not saved by saying a prayer in church one day. I believe Piper's argument is that if your life has boiled down to lounging on the beach without any regard to the cross of Christ and dying to self, then you may not really be saved. It may be uncomfortable to hear but there's a pretty good chance it's true.

I think the seashell example is a bit sensationalized however his point is valid as we Americans make these grand retirement plans that revolve around leisure, comfort and an attitude of ourselves being god.

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Fair enough. But he is a proclaimed "seven point Calvinist" so nothing we do has any bearing on whether we are saved or not, correct?

God chooses who He will save and who he will not in Piper's theology. So how could one "lose" their salvation if they have no control over it at all? And how can what we do or not do have any effect on our salvation?

And please understand I am just throwing the question out and not trying to criticize or question you.

It just makes no sense.

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The calvinists need to give it up. Predestination is dying anyways. The theology is ridiculous and many Protestants are searching for something less difficult to swallow.

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c-jags said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I'm no theologian by any means, but it's one of those instances that if you're just coasting through life without any regard to the call and purpose Christ has for you, then you may not have really been regenerated like you think. You're not saved by saying a prayer in church one day. I believe Piper's argument is that if your life has boiled down to lounging on the beach without any regard to the cross of Christ and dying to self, then you may not really be saved. It may be uncomfortable to hear but there's a pretty good chance it's true.

I think the seashell example is a bit sensationalized however his point is valid as we Americans make these grand retirement plans that revolve around leisure, comfort and an attitude of ourselves being god.

---

Fair enough. But he is a proclaimed "seven point Calvinist" so nothing we do has any bearing on whether we are saved or not, correct?

God chooses who He will save and who he will not in Piper's theology. So how could one "lose" their salvation if they have no control over it at all? And how can what we do or not do have any effect on our salvation?

And please understand I am just throwing the question out and not trying to criticize or question you.

It just makes no sense.

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The calvinists need to give it up. Predestination is dying anyways. The theology is ridiculous and many Protestants are searching for something less difficult to swallow.

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fify

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dermdoc said:

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With all due respect, can any Piper supporters address the actual words from his book above?

Thanks.

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Frok said:

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Fair enough.

On being repetitive, that is why I generally struggle with any Christian Living or Self-Help book. They tell you all you need to know in the intro and then spend the rest of the book repeating it.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I'm no theologian by any means, but it's one of those instances that if you're just coasting through life without any regard to the call and purpose Christ has for you, then you may not have really been regenerated like you think. You're not saved by saying a prayer in church one day. I believe Piper's argument is that if your life has boiled down to lounging on the beach without any regard to the cross of Christ and dying to self, then you may not really be saved. It may be uncomfortable to hear but there's a pretty good chance it's true.

I think the seashell example is a bit sensationalized however his point is valid as we Americans make these grand retirement plans that revolve around leisure, comfort and an attitude of ourselves being god.

---

Fair enough. But he is a proclaimed "seven point Calvinist" so nothing we do has any bearing on whether we are saved or not, correct?

God chooses who He will save and who he will not in Piper's theology. So how could one "lose" their salvation if they have no control over it at all? And how can what we do or not do have any effect on our salvation?

And please understand I am just throwing the question out and not trying to criticize or question you.

It just makes no sense.

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Happy to engage about this stuff, as long as it's not another trap that further divides followers of Christ. I don't think the correct frame of mind is that someone loses their salvation. I believe it's a situation in which they never had it. God isn't going to draw someone in, regenerate them, only for them to overpower God's sovereign will.

Look, I struggle with some facets of the reformed theology, but I rest my doubts knowing that the design from the beginning was for us to never be able to grasp all God's ways. When it comes down to it, I honestly believe it's gotta be a mix of both God's irresistible call and our free will. I wrestle with scripture when seems definitive in one spot and not so much in another. All I know is that the road is narrow and I surely don't want to be deceived by society, culture, politics or whatever else.

Do I think it's okay to go fishing or collect shells during retirement? Of course. That isn't what Piper was scrutinizing though - not the act but that pervasive lifestyle that is void of Christ on his throne in our lives - whatever life stage we are in. In my opinion retired Christian folks are chalked full of wisdom and to not use that on the younger generations or to serve others is indeed a waste of their life.

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Serotonin said:

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Apparently A&M leaders have been gathering shells for last 6 months. . .

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dermdoc said:

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With all due respect, can any Piper supporters address the actual words from his book above?

Thanks.

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Frok said:

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dermdoc said:

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And for some reason, the damning of seashell gathering by Piper bothers me.

How is that different than golfing? Hunting? Taking a walk? Watching a movie?

What activities are "okay" according to Piper? And which are a "waste of my life"? Or a threat to my salvation?

Obviously, I disagree with this theology. And thank God no man can take my salvation away. No matter what they think.

Praise God.

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Being obtuse on Texags is wasting your life.

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I'm no theologian by any means, but it's one of those instances that if you're just coasting through life without any regard to the call and purpose Christ has for you, then you may not have really been regenerated like you think. You're not saved by saying a prayer in church one day. I believe Piper's argument is that if your life has boiled down to lounging on the beach without any regard to the cross of Christ and dying to self, then you may not really be saved. It may be uncomfortable to hear but there's a pretty good chance it's true.

I think the seashell example is a bit sensationalized however his point is valid as we Americans make these grand retirement plans that revolve around leisure, comfort and an attitude of ourselves being god.

---

Fair enough. But he is a proclaimed "seven point Calvinist" so nothing we do has any bearing on whether we are saved or not, correct?

God chooses who He will save and who he will not in Piper's theology. So how could one "lose" their salvation if they have no control over it at all? And how can what we do or not do have any effect on our salvation?

And please understand I am just throwing the question out and not trying to criticize or question you.

It just makes no sense.

---

Happy to engage about this stuff, as long as it's not another trap that further divides followers of Christ. I don't think the correct frame of mind is that someone loses their salvation. I believe it's a situation in which they never had it. God isn't going to draw someone in, regenerate them, only for them to overpower God's sovereign will.

Look, I struggle with some facets of the reformed theology, but I rest my doubts knowing that the design from the beginning was for us to never be able to grasp all God's ways. When it comes down to it, I honestly believe it's gotta be a mix of both God's irresistible call and our free will. I wrestle with scripture when seems definitive in one spot and not so much in another. All I know is that the road is narrow and I surely don't want to be deceived by society, culture, politics or whatever else.

Do I think it's okay to go fishing or collect shells during retirement? Of course. That isn't what Piper was scrutinizing though - not the act but that pervasive lifestyle that is void of Christ on his throne in our lives - whatever life stage we are in. In my opinion retired Christian folks are chalked full of wisdom and to not use that on the younger generations or to serve others is indeed a waste of their life.

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Actually isn't collecting sea shells exactly what Piper talked about? And if you did that you could lose your salvation?

Is there a secret code I am missing?

And I know and love the Lord. This is not what he is about.

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dermdoc said:

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Seems to me like horrible theology. And who sets the standards for "perseverance"?

And how does a "seven point Calvinist" believe anyone can "lose" their salvation?

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dermdoc said:

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It just seems contrary to "once saved always saved" which to me means once justified that you are saved. No matter whether you fall away or not.

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Pro Sandy said:

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dermdoc said:

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It just seems contrary to "once saved always saved" which to me means once justified that you are saved. No matter whether you fall away or not.

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That's a conundrum in reformed theology. Usually too simplistically explained away as if you are of the elect, you won't fall away.

It loses the reassurance it is supposed to have when I have bad days, which are quite common.

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Pro Sandy said:

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dermdoc said:

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It just seems contrary to "once saved always saved" which to me means once justified that you are saved. No matter whether you fall away or not.

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That's a conundrum in reformed theology. Usually too simplistically explained away as if you are of the elect, you won't fall away.

It loses the reassurance it is supposed to have when I have bad days, which are quite common.

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