Christianity Today: The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill (Mark Driscoll)

25,109 Views | 229 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by diehard03
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Marvin_Zindler • 4:30p, 12/2/21
AG
Well, I do not believe in an eternal conscious torment hell as did many of the church fathers like Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and many more. So on that, he is in good company imho. The concept of ECT hell primarily comes from Augustine and was put on steroids by Dante and Milton.

Bell is not really a Universalist as he believes Jesus is the only true way as do. I bet he did not believe I. ECT hell a lot earlier than Love Wins.

I believe God provides a rehab punishment rather than a retributive punishment. And God can not sin, correct? Think about the concept of ETERNAL torture. And then think about how the nature of God was revealed by Jesus.

No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1
3 edits
Martin Q. Blank
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
4:54p, 12/2/21
Great. Now the thread is going to be about dermdoc's obsession with hell.
Reply Quote
4
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 5:04p, 12/2/21
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
Great. Now the thread is going to be about dermdoc's obsession with hell.
Well, to be honest, if you cut modern Western Christianity to the quick, it is the most important issue if you actually think about it. Thankfully most believers in ECT hell do not really think about the reality of what they believe.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
Martin Q. Blank
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 5:04p, 12/2/21
Interesting. Tell me more.
Reply Quote
1
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 5:06p, 12/2/21
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
Interesting. Tell me more.
No
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
Martin Q. Blank
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 5:10p, 12/2/21
dermdoc said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Interesting. Tell me more.
No
I guess it's not the most important issue if you actually think about it.
Reply Quote
3
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 5:11p, 12/2/21
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
dermdoc said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Interesting. Tell me more.
No
I guess it's not the most important issue if you actually think about it.
So eternal torture is not the most important issue? What is?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
Martin Q. Blank
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 5:13p, 12/2/21
dermdoc said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
dermdoc said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
Interesting. Tell me more.
No
I guess it's not the most important issue if you actually think about it.
So eternal torture is not the most important issue? What is?
Calvinism
Reply Quote
Marvin_Zindler
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:28p, 12/2/21
AG
And.....back on topic......
Reply Quote
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Marvin_Zindler • 9:34p, 12/2/21
AG
I like your posts.

It is fascinating to me that only ECT proponents seem to be so virulent about the other thoughts about "hell" like annihilationism or universalism being wrong and even deserving of eternal punishment when in the early church all of those theologies were accepted.

Rob Bell's Love wins would not have registered any opposition in the Early Church in my opinion. Even Augustine refused to condemn his universalist friends. Just called them " tender hearted".

Why do you think that is?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
2 edits
c-jags
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Marvin_Zindler • 9:55p, 12/2/21
Marvin_Zindler said:
And.....back on topic......


I haven't had a chance to listen to the last podcast. I know it's the big one but I just haven't had 2+ hours to kill on it.

Had a good conversation with a pastor friend about it when I was home for Thanksgiving. He had the same impression as me. The whole thing is very well done and interesting, but Cosper's disdain for Driscoll and his theology overrides the real and valid complaints about Driscoll himself.

Hopefully I'll knock it out during the break.
Reply Quote
Jimbos Plaque
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 12:39a, 12/5/21
AG
dermdoc said:
Senor Butthead said:
So when I was at A&M from 2010-14, the Christian bubble I was a part of was very much a thing. I had heard a lot about Driscoll and Mars Hill, mainly that he was a preacher in seattle. I thought Rob Bell was the pastor of MH, and it broke my heart when I found out about his shortcomings recently. I had a few of his sermons downloaded on my iPod back in the day. It's like a weird where are they now episode.

What's crazy is in the beginning of the podcast, I really liked what Driscoll had to say about being strong, biblical men of honor, virtue, and integrity. It's a shame he couldn't live up to that.

I admittedly haven't been going to church in a long time, pretty much since my campus pastor went to prison for attempting to rape a child and kill her mother but that's another story altogether. Just more proof that you can't put your faith in people, just in God.
May I ask what Rob Bell's shortcomings are?
pretty much what marvin said, but he wrote a book called love wins, which basically said "how can a good and loving God allow people he loves to be in hell, seperated from Him?" basically negating the need for grace, Jesus, and salvation. I think it comes from a very valid POV, but much like how darkness can't exist in light, sin cannot exist around God.

It broke my heart because growing up I would listen to Rob and ate up his content. It was a cornerstone of my faith as a teenager - this radical, loving, embrace of Christiantiy.
Reply Quote
1
Marvin_Zindler
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
1:34a, 12/5/21
AG
Back on topic the "final" episode (wait 'til the credits) of the podcast is out.

Spoiler alert: It's 2.5 hrs long. Run down (no? spoilers):

  • Cosper again throws shade at complementarianism and reformed theology.
  • Sutton Turner is making amends.
  • Lotta' pseudointellectual struggle sessions.
  • Piper/Chandler "refused to comment" without linking to Piper's specific comments on Mars Hill here shortly after the demise:


The Piper video is the part that might piss me off the most about this whole podcast. That video was posted less than a year after the "end" of Mars Hill and Piper is very clear about his feelings about a number of topics and how the Gospel plays into all of this in Seattle. This goes directly to the churches planted out of Mars Hill.

Nevertheless, Cosper says Piper "had no comment," hoping his audience can't use YouTube. No, you D-bag. He had a comment in real time that was "Gospel centered" (as you disparage) and you chose not to include it.

At the end of the day: Driscoll should not be anywhere near a pulpit and Cosper used this podcast to pick useless fights over theology/ecclesiology/his own post-pastoral demons when it could have been much more.
Reply Quote
3
3 edits
chap
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Marvin_Zindler • 4:12p, 12/5/21
AG
Marvin_Zindler said:
  • Sutton Turner is making amends.


    • I only just recently realized this is the same Sutton Turner who posts here.

    Reply Quote
    2
    Frok
    User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
    9:03p, 12/6/21
    AG
    Decided to pick it back up. I haven't finished the last episode yet. I still think there are key players left out that I would like to hear from. But overall the picture is fairly clear on Driscoll. Accountability is needed for everyone. He needs to repent of his last actions but unfortunately he has too much pride.
    Reply Quote
    inch05
    User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
    In reply to chap • 7:40p, 12/7/21
    AG
    Me too! The MH staff really hated him. Maybe if Sutton has some down time, would love to hear his personal thoughts and how it shapes the work he does now (he's a church consultant I think).
    Reply Quote
    Pro Sandy
    User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
    4:00p, 1/4/22
    AG
    Wrapping up the final ep.

    What did you learn from it? Sure, watching the train wreck is fun, but really is just gossip if laughing at Mark is all we take away.

    For me as an elder, I find a few things.

    One, the importance of the ruling elder in a church. A teaching elder needs the ruling elder to help them grow. The congregation needs the ruling elder to protect from an abusive teaching elder.

    Two, I've seen these behaviors before in a teaching elder. The ruling elders stood against the teaching elder for his behavior and repeatedly held him accountable. It ended with his credentials being revoked. We may see this as a far away issue, most of us don't go to megachurches in Seattle, but the narcissistic behavior and abuse of power can occur even in our own local churches. We must be willing to stand.

    Three, like Paul Tripp, it just makes me sad.
    Reply Quote
    2
    diehard03
    User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
    4:35p, 1/4/22
    Quote:
    One, the importance of the ruling elder in a church. A teaching elder needs the ruling elder to help them grow. The congregation needs the ruling elder to protect from an abusive teaching elder.

    I think that with the absence of humility, the polity doesn't matter.

    there are many churches that are under the thumb of a abusive ruling elder and churn through pastors like a meat grinder. That's not good for your congregation either.

    I know it's easy for us to see the Driscoll situation as a visceral symbol of worst-case scenario of a teaching elder...but the opposite is not so easily seen, and only sometimes recognized by the turnstile at the pulpit.
    Reply Quote
    1
    Pro Sandy
    User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
    In reply to diehard03 • 5:13p, 1/4/22
    AG
    diehard03 said:
    Quote:
    One, the importance of the ruling elder in a church. A teaching elder needs the ruling elder to help them grow. The congregation needs the ruling elder to protect from an abusive teaching elder.

    I think that with the absence of humility, the polity doesn't matter.

    there are many churches that are under the thumb of a abusive ruling elder and churn through pastors like a meat grinder. That's not good for your congregation either.

    I know it's easy for us to see the Driscoll situation as a visceral symbol of worst-case scenario of a teaching elder...but the opposite is not so easily seen, and only sometimes recognized by the turnstile at the pulpit.
    Agreed, dealt with that as well. That's part of the reason we left one church, the complete lack of unity in the session and the constant unfounded attacks by a few REs against others.
    Reply Quote
    1
    diehard03
    User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
    10:33a, 1/5/22
    Quote:
    Agreed, dealt with that as well. That's part of the reason we left one church, the complete lack of unity in the session and the constant unfounded attacks by a few REs against others.

    Sorry you had to go through that and I love your response to the call of eldership in your life - taking it seriously and trying to steward the position well.
    Reply Quote
     
    ×
    subscribe Verify your student status
    See Subscription Benefits
    Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.