Neil Shenvi is pretty great at discussing CRT and its negative impacts on the Christian church

Marvin_Zindler said:

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Frok said:

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I know what critical race theory is and I do agree it is a real threat however Mark Driscoll is not the best person to deliver that message. Voddie Baucham is probably the best resource for that.

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I still remember listening to Voddie speak at youth camp at Glen Rose in 8th grade. He has come a long way.

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I had Vodie at a camp as well.

as a teenager, one of the dopest Super Summers i ever went to had Matt Chandler and Chris Tomlin before either of them blew up in the late 90s.

c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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Frok said:

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I know what critical race theory is and I do agree it is a real threat however Mark Driscoll is not the best person to deliver that message. Voddie Baucham is probably the best resource for that.

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I still remember listening to Voddie speak at youth camp at Glen Rose in 8th grade. He has come a long way.

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I had Vodie at a camp as well.

as a teenager, one of the dopest Super Summers i ever went to had Matt Chandler and Chris Tomlin before either of them blew up in the late 90s.

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You and I went to the same Super Summer at HSU. I think I was in Green School that year.

Marvin_Zindler said:

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94chem said:

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If you want to start The First Church of the Barrel-Chested Angry Dad Bods for Jesus, there will be plenty of members. His mind isn't worthy of changing. He's kind of an intellectual midget.

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Whoooaaa.....calm down. I am not---nor have I ever said---I am a Driscoll pumper. I think he has some serious character flaws that are disqualifying for the office of pastor.

That said, he is not wrong on some things. Look back at his predictions on the trajectory of the Episcopal church 15-years ago and tell me he was wrong. He is also not wrong on CRT. If you want 30K foot overview, see the clip above. If you want a 2K foot overview, YoutTube Voddie Baucham.

People can be terrible and still be right. Also, God can use broken vessels to draw the lost to salvation. He is that big and good.

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.
The Episcopal Church? Really? That was a hard one to call. I'm only 49, so I didn't see it coming until about 1987.

And, if Driscoll really knew what CRT was, he might understand that many of the systemic current racist practices were put in place by the political left. Think about Roe v. Wade, early decision policies for universities, athletic scholarship standards, the Rooney Rule, no fault divorce laws, early parole of violent offenders...regardless of political affiliation, the church has a huge role to play in influencing legislation that is just. Of course we will mess up sometimes. For example, Rev Criswell was pro-abortion. He hadn't had time to put his finger in the wind yet. But the current disgrace up there is more savvy and more obtuse, if it is possible to combine those qualities. Writing a hymn called Make America Great Again is far more foolish than examining the presence of systemic racism in our society.

Oh, and I'm a Republican, so spare me the lib smack. I just happen to be more introspective than the average bear. Isn't that what Paul told us to be?

Marvin_Zindler said:

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c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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Frok said:

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I know what critical race theory is and I do agree it is a real threat however Mark Driscoll is not the best person to deliver that message. Voddie Baucham is probably the best resource for that.

---

I still remember listening to Voddie speak at youth camp at Glen Rose in 8th grade. He has come a long way.

---

I had Vodie at a camp as well.

as a teenager, one of the dopest Super Summers i ever went to had Matt Chandler and Chris Tomlin before either of them blew up in the late 90s.

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You and I went to the same Super Summer at HSU. I think I was in Green School that year.

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I may have been green school. I think the years I went were green and yellow. Definitely HSU though.

If you remember a guy in a cow suit on some different occasions, that was ...not me.

I may or may not have a picture of ... not me... in a cow suit with Chandler and Tomlin.

I agree we should pay attention to race relations and understand where racism persist. We can't be too quick to label something CRT simply because someone brings up race.

But the language of CRT is definitely making its way into schools, churches, and corporations. It's super divisive and doesn't have anything to do with the Gospel.

There's no hope, reconciliation, or forgiveness with CRT. It simply aims to tear apart societal structures that are in place.

94chem said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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94chem said:

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If you want to start The First Church of the Barrel-Chested Angry Dad Bods for Jesus, there will be plenty of members. His mind isn't worthy of changing. He's kind of an intellectual midget.

---

Whoooaaa.....calm down. I am not---nor have I ever said---I am a Driscoll pumper. I think he has some serious character flaws that are disqualifying for the office of pastor.

That said, he is not wrong on some things. Look back at his predictions on the trajectory of the Episcopal church 15-years ago and tell me he was wrong. He is also not wrong on CRT. If you want 30K foot overview, see the clip above. If you want a 2K foot overview, YoutTube Voddie Baucham.

People can be terrible and still be right. Also, God can use broken vessels to draw the lost to salvation. He is that big and good.

---

.
The Episcopal Church? Really? That was a hard one to call. I'm only 49, so I didn't see it coming until about 1987.

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Calm down. I was talking about the podcast host's (Mike Cosper) critique of Driscoll within the first 5 minutes of the episode. Did you even listen?

c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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Frok said:

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I know what critical race theory is and I do agree it is a real threat however Mark Driscoll is not the best person to deliver that message. Voddie Baucham is probably the best resource for that.

---

I still remember listening to Voddie speak at youth camp at Glen Rose in 8th grade. He has come a long way.

---

I had Vodie at a camp as well.

as a teenager, one of the dopest Super Summers i ever went to had Matt Chandler and Chris Tomlin before either of them blew up in the late 90s.

---

You and I went to the same Super Summer at HSU. I think I was in Green School that year.

---

I may have been green school. I think the years I went were green and yellow. Definitely HSU though.

If you remember a guy in a cow suit on some different occasions, that was ...not me.

I may or may not have a picture of ... not me... in a cow suit with Chandler and Tomlin.

---

Don't remember the cow costume, but that is pretty funny. I still remember that last night of worship in the big auditorium. Have some good memories of Super Summers.

I was there too!

Marvin_Zindler said:

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94chem said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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94chem said:

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If you want to start The First Church of the Barrel-Chested Angry Dad Bods for Jesus, there will be plenty of members. His mind isn't worthy of changing. He's kind of an intellectual midget.

---

Whoooaaa.....calm down. I am not---nor have I ever said---I am a Driscoll pumper. I think he has some serious character flaws that are disqualifying for the office of pastor.

That said, he is not wrong on some things. Look back at his predictions on the trajectory of the Episcopal church 15-years ago and tell me he was wrong. He is also not wrong on CRT. If you want 30K foot overview, see the clip above. If you want a 2K foot overview, YoutTube Voddie Baucham.

People can be terrible and still be right. Also, God can use broken vessels to draw the lost to salvation. He is that big and good.

---

.
The Episcopal Church? Really? That was a hard one to call. I'm only 49, so I didn't see it coming until about 1987.

---

Calm down. I was talking about the podcast host's (Mike Cosper) critique of Driscoll within the first 5 minutes of the episode. Did you even listen?

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I've listened to 3 or 4 of the episodes thus far. I was already 25 when the whole Josh Harris nonsense started, so I never understood what evangelical leaders were talking about when they mentioned courtship. I just figured there was some secret code that I didn't need to know in order to find a wife. Turns out, like Driscoll, Harris was another sad case of too much, too soon, with too little accountability. Mix in too little education, and it's the evangelical mix and repeat celebrity cycle.

Marvin_Zindler said:

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c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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Frok said:

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I know what critical race theory is and I do agree it is a real threat however Mark Driscoll is not the best person to deliver that message. Voddie Baucham is probably the best resource for that.

---

I still remember listening to Voddie speak at youth camp at Glen Rose in 8th grade. He has come a long way.

---

I had Vodie at a camp as well.

as a teenager, one of the dopest Super Summers i ever went to had Matt Chandler and Chris Tomlin before either of them blew up in the late 90s.

---

You and I went to the same Super Summer at HSU. I think I was in Green School that year.

---

I may have been green school. I think the years I went were green and yellow. Definitely HSU though.

If you remember a guy in a cow suit on some different occasions, that was ...not me.

I may or may not have a picture of ... not me... in a cow suit with Chandler and Tomlin.

---

Don't remember the cow costume, but that is pretty funny. I still remember that last night of worship in the big auditorium. Have some good memories of Super Summers.

---

Yeah. I remember that night. One of the first time I really felt an impression of the spirit moving amongst others. Probably not a safe thing to say amongst other Baptists.

If I remember correctly, Chandler came out to speak and Tomlin pushed him off stage because it was obvious that there was something going on in the worship.

94chem said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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94chem said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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94chem said:

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If you want to start The First Church of the Barrel-Chested Angry Dad Bods for Jesus, there will be plenty of members. His mind isn't worthy of changing. He's kind of an intellectual midget.

---

Whoooaaa.....calm down. I am not---nor have I ever said---I am a Driscoll pumper. I think he has some serious character flaws that are disqualifying for the office of pastor.

That said, he is not wrong on some things. Look back at his predictions on the trajectory of the Episcopal church 15-years ago and tell me he was wrong. He is also not wrong on CRT. If you want 30K foot overview, see the clip above. If you want a 2K foot overview, YoutTube Voddie Baucham.

People can be terrible and still be right. Also, God can use broken vessels to draw the lost to salvation. He is that big and good.

---

.
The Episcopal Church? Really? That was a hard one to call. I'm only 49, so I didn't see it coming until about 1987.

---

Calm down. I was talking about the podcast host's (Mike Cosper) critique of Driscoll within the first 5 minutes of the episode. Did you even listen?

---

I've listened to 3 or 4 of the episodes thus far. I was already 25 when the whole Josh Harris nonsense started, so I never understood what evangelical leaders were talking about when they mentioned courtship. I just figured there was some secret code that I didn't need to know in order to find a wife. Turns out, like Driscoll, Harris was another sad case of too much, too soon, with too little accountability. Mix in too little education, and it's the evangelical mix and repeat celebrity cycle.

---

There is an ocean between "Mark Driscoll has some pride/sin issues and probably shouldn't be a pastor" and Joshua Harris renouncing his faith and divorcing his wife.

The two are incomparable.

I pointed out the similarities...too much, too soon, with too little accountability and education. Child stars.

I'll leave the soul-judging to God.

94chem said:

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I pointed out the similarities...too much, too soon, with too little accountability and education. Child stars.

I'll leave the soul-judging to God.

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Agree. Very similar to Hollywood and music.

Also fascinating how it seems so many fundamentalist pastors kids become apostate.

CT has become the CNN of Christian media.
This podcast will do nothing for your soul offers little evidence of accusations and proposes a standard that Luther Calvin Edwards and Paul would have missed. If you need more train wrecks to watch then tune in.

PaulTony said:

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CT has become the CNN of Christian media.
This podcast will do nothing for your soul offers little evidence of accusations and proposes a standard that Luther Calvin Edwards and Paul would have missed. If you need more train wrecks to watch then tune in.

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So you read Paul's sermon on Mars Hills as the same as Edwards "Sinners in the hands of an angry God"?

When two listeners committed suicide?

And "offers little evidence of accusations"?

What is wrong with you?

And who is called "the accuser" by Scripture?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Piper continues to stand the test of time

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I do not believe in predetermined limited atonement so I do not read Piper much.

He also wrote a book on retirement where he stated that if you retired and did nothing except relax you could lose your salvation which seemed very odd for a "7 point"Calvinist.

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Haha that would be a bit odd

c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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c-jags said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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Frok said:

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I know what critical race theory is and I do agree it is a real threat however Mark Driscoll is not the best person to deliver that message. Voddie Baucham is probably the best resource for that.

---

I still remember listening to Voddie speak at youth camp at Glen Rose in 8th grade. He has come a long way.

---

I had Vodie at a camp as well.

as a teenager, one of the dopest Super Summers i ever went to had Matt Chandler and Chris Tomlin before either of them blew up in the late 90s.

---

You and I went to the same Super Summer at HSU. I think I was in Green School that year.

---

I may have been green school. I think the years I went were green and yellow. Definitely HSU though.

If you remember a guy in a cow suit on some different occasions, that was ...not me.

I may or may not have a picture of ... not me... in a cow suit with Chandler and Tomlin.

---

Don't remember the cow costume, but that is pretty funny. I still remember that last night of worship in the big auditorium. Have some good memories of Super Summers.

---

Yeah. I remember that night. One of the first time I really felt an impression of the spirit moving amongst others. Probably not a safe thing to say amongst other Baptists.

If I remember correctly, Chandler came out to speak and Tomlin pushed him off stage because it was obvious that there was something going on in the worship.

---

Spot on....and I remember the exact same feeling..."I'm in the middle of something very significant."

I remember Chandler coming out and basically saying "I was going to preach but God had better intentions...let's sing and then you all go deal with what the spirit is laying on you.."

If you follow Driscoll on social media, he has spent the last week-12 days going hard after CRT and wokeness in the church. Gotta think it's a direct shot at CT….if at least in a small way.

Marvin_Zindler said:

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If you follow Driscoll on social media, he has spent the last week-12 days going hard after CRT and wokeness in the church. Gotta think it's a direct shot at CT….if at least in a small way.

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i don't follow him, but i've seen a few clips of it from other christian accounts. he does seem to be going hard in the paint after it along with Vodie.

that i know of, i don't think he's addressed the podcast at all. but it's just a hit piece at this point. i enjoyed the first few, but after that it was obvious that they're just reaching and looking for things to ding the guy on.

____________


the NYT did an article on Joe Rogan recently and reached out to a lot of his regular guests and friends who all gave the NYT the Heisman. They actually quoted a lot of them as responding "GFY." Rogan hasn't even mentioned the article that i know of, but i'm a very irregular listener.

on one hand, you just get a bunch of people who don't like the subject of the article/podcast piling on and telling small, condemning parts of their story. if you're neutral enough on the subject, you can see that it's very one sided... but also the subject and their followers/friends didn't care enough to be quoted or defend them. on the other hand, you're not giving them ammo or quotes that can be taken out of context.

it seems like Driscoll's camp has chosen the latter, for better or worse.

I stopped listening after the Bobby Knight episode. Mike Costa is out of content and none of the key people are giving him interviews anymore.

I don't like "produced" podcasts where they just take quotes from people. What I want is a Joe Rogan style interview where Mike Costa sits down with Mark Driscoll for 2 hours and they just talk.

Frok said:

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I stopped listening after the Bobby Knight episode. Mike Costa is out of content and none of the key people are giving him interviews anymore.

I don't like "produced" podcasts where they just take quotes from people. What I want is a Joe Rogan style interview where Mike Costa sits down with Mark Driscoll for 2 hours and they just talk.

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I hated the Bobby Knight episode.

This weeks was one of the best they have done and had almost nothing to do with Mark. I've followed Acts 29 reasonably closely since the early 2010s and had never heard of David Nicholas. Guy left quite the mark.

If you have stopped listening, this weeks is worth a pick-it-back-up.

This is long, but a good discussion with a Mars Hill elder on the documentary and the cult of personality that was Mark Driscoll

Newest episode (the tempest) seems to be what they've been building toward the whole time. It's a long one, with probably the clearest examples of Driscoll's shortcomings being exposed and put on display to the world.

Sad to me how much damage was done to people who could have otherwise been won for the gospel instead the way they were treated by so-called "Christians" caused them to reject the church and Christ.

https://www.wthrockmorton.com/category/postcards-from-phoenix/

Interesting read.

It really all comes down to how you perceive the character of God. And that perception will influence everything you do as it does with Driscoll.

And I would have run away from that as soon as I could. Where is the Christ like demeanor? Fruits of the Spirit?

AGC said:

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c-jags said:

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AGC said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.

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Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.

Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.

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while i disagree on Chandler's political views when it comes to race a 0 sum game, i feel like he's still pretty darn biblical in his teachings from what i still read or listen to.

i can see how some people arrive at some different sjw issues from the Bible than i arrive at my personal opinion, but i haven't heard him go off the deep end.

i'm pretty critical of Russell Moore from a political perspective and that i think his comments outside of the Bible are pretty short-sided, but he's still a Bible believing Christian.

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Well that's the thing though: are they even his teachings? That's what the Docent controversy is about. That's what's engulfing the SBC right now. It was plagiarism that has kind of morphed into another facet of sermon prep: should it be done by committee or outsourced? When you endorse groups that do the exegesis for you one has to wonder.

Is there a connection between belief and practice? Forget presidential politics, look at how Moore handled the last SBC presidential vote by leaking letters and recordings. Are these examples of a Bible believing Christian? Or a man who should be called to repentance?

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Docent shows up in the latest podcast. No discussion of SBC leadership though in the context of it.

So when I was at A&M from 2010-14, the Christian bubble I was a part of was very much a thing. I had heard a lot about Driscoll and Mars Hill, mainly that he was a preacher in seattle. I thought Rob Bell was the pastor of MH, and it broke my heart when I found out about his shortcomings recently. I had a few of his sermons downloaded on my iPod back in the day. It's like a weird where are they now episode.

What's crazy is in the beginning of the podcast, I really liked what Driscoll had to say about being strong, biblical men of honor, virtue, and integrity. It's a shame he couldn't live up to that.

I admittedly haven't been going to church in a long time, pretty much since my campus pastor went to prison for attempting to rape a child and kill her mother but that's another story altogether. Just more proof that you can't put your faith in people, just in God.

Senor Butthead said:

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So when I was at A&M from 2010-14, the Christian bubble I was a part of was very much a thing. I had heard a lot about Driscoll and Mars Hill, mainly that he was a preacher in seattle. I thought Rob Bell was the pastor of MH, and it broke my heart when I found out about his shortcomings recently. I had a few of his sermons downloaded on my iPod back in the day. It's like a weird where are they now episode.

What's crazy is in the beginning of the podcast, I really liked what Driscoll had to say about being strong, biblical men of honor, virtue, and integrity. It's a shame he couldn't live up to that.

I admittedly haven't been going to church in a long time, pretty much since my campus pastor went to prison for attempting to rape a child and kill her mother but that's another story altogether. Just more proof that you can't put your faith in people, just in God.

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May I ask what Rob Bell's shortcomings are?