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Falling in love is great. Getting married and having a very happy wedding day sounds great. But from everything I've heard from married people since I've been an adult , marriage sounds miserable for so many people. I think monogamy isn't for everyone honestly. These people joking about how awful marriage is should probably be swingers or something. I'm not joking. Either that, or they've realized they don't love their spouse and they settled with someone "who will have to do" because they feared being alone forever.

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I agree, we are bad marketers. That said, the people are always effusive about marriage are, too, bad marketers.

Because we are human, the following things WILL happen:

* you will think your spouse is awesome
* you will resent your spouse for silly things you never comprehended when you get married.

Why does this happen? This is what humans do with familiarity and intimacy. When you live with someone whos not you and never goes home, tensions raise. You take things for granted. You let things bother you. You don't speak up.

There's also something wild that happens after divorce...or hell, when you're married and she goes away for a week - you're absolutely miserable alone. (yes, everyone has a different experience and maybe that feeling is welcome after a bad relationship. thats not the point).

This is the human experience. To complain about the "ball and chain", yet want it and need it.

Quad Dog said:

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Here's some positivity:
It's been 15 years and I love being married. I'd have no idea how or even want to be single. She sees an amazing man when she looks at me, and it makes me want to try and be that man everyday. We are a team. It's us against the world. We pick each other up, help each other out. One of my favorite things is silently reading a book next to her. Find someone you can enjoy the silences with, is willing to put up with your b.s., and hang on tight to that person.
Not everything has been perfect. But you'd be surprised how helpful it can be to just say "let's sit down and have an adult conversation about..." We don't play stupid games, and we are honest.
My bachelor party was a baseball game and a few bars with friends. I don't think I talked to a woman outside of a waitress or somebody. I had no desire to do something crazy at a strip club.

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You sound a lot like us. I love your sentence about enjoying the silences.

Quad Dog said:

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Here's some positivity:
It's been 15 years and I love being married. I'd have no idea how or even want to be single. She sees an amazing man when she looks at me, and it makes me want to try and be that man everyday. We are a team. It's us against the world. We pick each other up, help each other out. One of my favorite things is silently reading a book next to her. Find someone you can enjoy the silences with, is willing to put up with your b.s., and hang on tight to that person.
Not everything has been perfect. But you'd be surprised how helpful it can be to just say "let's sit down and have an adult conversation about..." We don't play stupid games, and we are honest.
My bachelor party was a baseball game and a few bars with friends. I don't think I talked to a woman outside of a waitress or somebody. I had no desire to do something crazy at a strip club.

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Good stuff, I hope to have that. I do believe the majority of the negativity comes from people in unhappy marriages who probably married the wrong person. And they are understandably having a hard time coming to terms with that.

That's how a bachelor party should be done. Fun times with close friends. Controversial take: getting a lap dance on your bachelor/ette party is cheating.

diehard03 said:

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I do believe the majority of the negativity comes from people in unhappy marriages who probably married the wrong person.

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It's not. It's from people that really like their spouse that are in a moment of frustration that everyone can relate to.

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Amen. The key is really enjoying your spouse's company.

dermdoc said:

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And as far as marriage being "hard", I have found that all "hard" things like marriage, med school and internship, being a father, work, even exercise bring the most joy and satisfaction. And having a special needs child, which I once thought was a burden, has brought the most joy.

I think we are wired to enjoy "hard" things and is probably why I will never retire.

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I should note, I'm not complaining about the idea of marriage being hard. You're right. School is hard, work is hard, parenting is hard, working out is hard. But it's all rewarding and makes you better. I'm talking about the people who seem to complain way too much about marriage/their spouse, and tell tasteless jokes about how "awful" marriage is. I sometimes want to blurt out to these people "just divorce her already. You're clearly unhappy and want to be with other women. Get it over with and move on with your lives."

Interesting thoughts, I agree with you that many married people seem complain too much. From a Christian perspective, I think the problem here is that people are taking a mystery/sacrament of the Church and turning it into something with a completely different goal.

What is marriage?

1. A model of Christ's divine love for the Church (among other things), or
2. A means to find the "right" person to maximize my happiness and enjoyment here on earth?

#1 is kingdom-oriented, sacrificial in nature, and focused on prioritizing someone else
#2 is worldly-oriented, selfish in nature, and focused on prioritizing myself

Expecting marriage to increase your happiness is like a CEOs using meditation to increase personal and corporate productivity. In both instances the practice isn't made for that goal and actually asks hard things of the participant that point in the opposite direction of the goals we are using it for.

I think you're making it more abstract and "ethereal" then it needs to be.

I think of it like military lifers.

Do they love the military? Yes.

Do they make jokes and complain how stupid the government is? Yes.

Do some people need to quit because they really shouldn't be in the military? Probably.

Does this mean that everyone should avoid the military? No.

Why do they feel this way? Everyone feels this way after doing the same thing for 20+years.

Lots of wisdom here from diehard.

diehard03 said:

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I think you're making it more abstract and "ethereal" then it needs to be.

I think of it like military lifers.

Do they love the military? Yes.

Do they make jokes and complain how stupid the government is? Yes.

Do some people need to quit because they really shouldn't be in the military? Probably.

Does this mean that everyone should avoid the military? No.

Why do they feel this way? Everyone feels this way after doing the same thing for 20+years.

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Agreed. It's similar to other huge life decisions. Buying a house, picking a career, getting a pet, having children. There are annoying and frustrating things about all of these, but that doesn't mean you would do anything different even if you had the chance

diehard03 said:

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I think you're making it more abstract and "ethereal" then it needs to be.

I think of it like military lifers.

Do they love the military? Yes.

Do they make jokes and complain how stupid the government is? Yes.

Do some people need to quit because they really shouldn't be in the military? Probably.

Does this mean that everyone should avoid the military? No.

Why do they feel this way? Everyone feels this way after doing the same thing for 20+years.

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Great post.

And sometimes we forget about marriage in the OT. There were some pretty saucy and entertaining stories. Abraham telling a king his wife was his sister so he could prostitute her, David, Solomon, Rebekah and Leah, Lot, etc.

FWIW, I'll hit the 10 year mark this summer. In the 10 years, I can maybe count 2-3 times total that I was mad (as opposed to temporarily annoyed) at my wife or vice versa. Those frustrations never lasted more than a few days, and lead to honest conversations that lead to concrete actions from both the required party. My best friend and I have been best friends since 7th grade (now mid-30s) and guess what, we've pissed each other off before too. I don't think there's such a thing as human interaction without conflict. Just find someone that fights fair, fight fair yourself, and just be nice.

I don't have all the answers, but I have really enjoyed being married and have personally found it to be pretty easy. That wasn't intended as a boast, more of just an honest assessment of where I'm at. It's not always sunshine and rainbows, but 99% of the time it has been, and 1% of the time it wasn't all that bad.

P.C. Principal said:

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diehard03 said:

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I really, REALLY hope I never get divorced. I'm going to be insanely careful about who I marry. But if it turns out to be a hopelessly unhappy marriage I won't hesitate to divorce, and if that happens, I will not remarry. I am getting married ONCE (if at all). If it doesn't work out, hello permanent bachelor-dom.

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I am only 10 years in, but based on my and other's marriages, I can tell you the following is true:

1) There isn't a process/selection criteria which enables you to find the "right one". You have to do the hard work.
2) There is no right one.
3) Everyone feels like they are in an unhappy marriage at some point in their marriage. You have to do the hard work.
4) It gets better
5) You can always wake up and learn that your spouse is a horrible person that hates you. Or that you're a horrible person and hate them.
6) It may not get better.
7) Life really sucks when you try to do it alone and this alone is worth trying marriage.
8) You can want to do the hard work and your partner may not. There's nothing you can do about this.
9) If you both choose to do the hard work, you will be fine. It won't be pretty. It won't be a Hallmark movie. But you will be fine.

edit: Do not fear divorce. Fear missing out on an amazing life with someone.

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This was strangely depressing but also encouraging. My feelings come from the fact that my biggest fear in life (yes, biggest. more than death or death of a loved one) is being married to someone who I realize I don't love. There is no feeling more lonely than being with someone who makes you feel alone. I know this is a very sad and cynical thing to say, but it's how I feel.

Thank you. I hope to share your optimism someday.

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Love is not an emotion. It is a choice.

P.C. Principal said:

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One thing the millennial generation is doing right is waiting longer until getting married. I'm a firm believer that rushing into marriage at a young age because of pressure from family or society or what have you significantly increases the likelihood of divorce years down the road. Date your SO for a longer time and really really get to know them so you are 100% sure you want to spend the rest of your life with them.

Being more selective about marriage = lower divorce rates.

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Actually it has more to do with being capable of loving someone more than you love your self, having a unified purpose in your marriage, being humble enough to recognize that you are not perfect, ask forgiveness when it is needed, constantly improve yourself, and faith in God than being older.

I have known alot of older people who were no more capable of loving someone else more than themselves than a five year old and who were not capable of admitting when they were wrong. These people were either divorced or never able to find "the one".

There is no "the one". However there IS hard work, sacrifice, humility, faith, charity, and devotion. If both individuals strive for these qualities then the marriage will be successful regardless of what the world throws at them.

As an aside...romantic love only lasts for a year after marriage at most.

but the devotion and unconditional love you have for someone who has supported you, always watched out for your interests to the best of their ability, sacrificed for your welfare.....that kind of love is the rock that a lifetime can be built on.

my wife is more beautiful everyday...married going on 13 years. But the most beautiful thing is knowing without hesitation or reservation that if i go to her openly and honestly with ANYTHING she will support me and have my back.

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Love is not an emotion. It is a choice.

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Yes and no.

For sure, we are humans and we are greatly affected by whether or not we receive love. We cannot deny the emotional side of this.

But, more to your point, there are demands we have to show love that are independent of the love we want to receive.

Malibu said:

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FWIW, I'll hit the 10 year mark this summer. In the 10 years, I can maybe count 2-3 times total that I was mad (as opposed to temporarily annoyed) at my wife or vice versa. Those frustrations never lasted more than a few days, and lead to honest conversations that lead to concrete actions from both the required party. My best friend and I have been best friends since 7th grade (now mid-30s) and guess what, we've pissed each other off before too. I don't think there's such a thing as human interaction without conflict. Just find someone that fights fair, fight fair yourself, and just be nice.

I don't have all the answers, but I have really enjoyed being married and have personally found it to be pretty easy. That wasn't intended as a boast, more of just an honest assessment of where I'm at. It's not always sunshine and rainbows, but 99% of the time it has been, and 1% of the time it wasn't all that bad.

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I hope i'm not giving the impression that I think marriage should be sunshine and rainbows all the time and that there should be no conflict. I've been in serious relationships before and I fully appreciate the fact that human conflict with people you love is an inescapable fact of life. The people I love the most drive me nuts sometimes.

Sounds like you have what I eventually would like to have. A loving relationship with some bumps in the road, but those bumps lead to good honest conversations with one another rather than harboring anger and resentment. My mom's side of the family always had this mentality that we should not show our negative feelings and resist the urge to show anger. I completely disagree with this approach. I think there's nothing wrong with telling someone that they're pissing you off for XYZ reasons and you'd like things to change. Confrontation does not bother me and it's waaaaay better than being passive aggressive and suppressing emotions. Whoever I marry must be on the same page as me with this.

Controversial take time: I think bachelor parties involving strippers because "iTs YoUR LaSt nIgHt aS a FrEe MaN!!!11" are trashy and pervert the idea of marriage. I do find the jokes about marriage being miserable to be completely tasteless and not funny. I do think people who make those jokes often and describe their spouse as a controlling ball and chain are unhappy in their marriages, or maybe they lack the self-confidence to be themselves despite what their spouse says about them. Helping one correct bad behavior is one thing, but if your spouse tries to change you as a person and tries to stop you from being who you are, then your spouse doesn't love you for who you are. I've seen far too many people rush into marriage during the "honeymoon phase" at a young age and then things change significantly years down the road. I think many people rush into marriage for the wrong reasons--namely, pressure from their SO and family, and that is a recipe for disaster.

All in all, I am cynical about marriage because I've seen a hell of a lot of bull**** in our southern, conservative Texas culture. I am happy that my generation, the millennials, are being wise about marriage and waiting until an older age to do it, if at all. I'm also happy that we're having fewer children than our predecessors. There's nothing wrong with doing it young if it's for the right reasons, but you get the idea. I'm happy that we're rejecting the idea that you "must" get married and that you're flawed if you don't do it. Like it or not, we have seen the staggering divorce rates of earlier generations (whatever that number may be, either way it's a lot) and as a result are rethinking the idea of marriage.

Edit. Sorry for the long post. TLDR I have lots of thoughts on marriage and I don't hate the idea of it, but I don't like the ultraconservative "you must get married because reasons" approach to it and think it's harmful to lots of people.

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Controversial take time: I think bachelor parties involving strippers because "iTs YoUR LaSt nIgHt aS a FrEe MaN!!!11" are trashy and pervert the idea of marriage.

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I think you will find a lot of agreement here on this.

powerbelly said:

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Controversial take time: I think bachelor parties involving strippers because "iTs YoUR LaSt nIgHt aS a FrEe MaN!!!11" are trashy and pervert the idea of marriage.

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I think you will find a lot of agreement here on this.

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Lol. I used to frequent the relationship advice subreddit (total guilty pleasure) and I would see a number of stories about people saying they found out their fiancee cheated on them while obliterated drunk on their bachelor/ette party, sometimes with a stripper. That must have been pretty gut-wrenching to discover. Part of this is due to the fact that I've matured since college and I dont think getting wasted is that much fun anymore, and being a wild party girl who goes clubbing all the time is now a dealbreaker for any future relationships. Too much liability.

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All in all, I am cynical about marriage because I've seen a hell of a lot of bull**** in our southern, conservative Texas culture. I am happy that my generation, the millennials, are being wise about marriage and waiting until an older age to do it, if at all. I'm also happy that we're having fewer children than our predecessors. There's nothing wrong with doing it young if it's for the right reasons, but you get the idea. I'm happy that we're rejecting the idea that you "must" get married and that you're flawed if you don't do it. Like it or not, we have seen the staggering divorce rates of earlier generations (whatever that number may be, either way it's a lot) and as a result are rethinking the idea of marriage.

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There's a lot of BS on both sides. Sure, there are millennials that are "doing it right" when they wait...and there are also many that miss out on what God has to offer by waiting until they are 28+ to seriously consider marriage...because they have to "live life and find themselves".

I really can't agree that the couple that's been married for 10 years and dating for 25 has the right plan.

Taken apart from a Divinely ordained enterprise that seeks to make both of you better people in service to God through the service to each other, I don't see the point of marriage at all. Take God out of the equation, and it is a friendship with legal consequences for breaking up. It's only as important or lasting as your word or intentions. Even religious folks have a hard time overcoming those limitations.

With decreasing religiosity, I would expect marriage to decline.

diehard03 said:

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it is a friendship with legal consequences for breaking up.

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I think you have too low a view of a spousal relationship, even to the non-believer.

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Or perhaps too high of a bar for what friendship can be. I've seen some real, long lasting selfless dedication there, I don't mean that as faint praise or snark. Friendships do ebb and flow through your lifetime though, and so it seems do marriages to many people.

The distinction in my head was more that a non-religious marriage depends upon the dedication and commitment of the two spouses in isolation from a definable common goal. If the relationship itself becomes more important than what both individuals seek to get out of the relationship for their individual benefit, then I guess that gets to the same place, though I couldn't rationally say why, apart from a "stay together for the children" argument.

I don't mean to sound definitive on this, it's just my musing opinion, I am happy to hear more thoughts on how this comes through for non-believers.

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f the relationship itself becomes more important than what both individuals seek to get out of the relationship for their individual benefit, then I guess that gets to the same place, though I couldn't rationally say why, apart from a "stay together for the children" argument.

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Humans really aren't rational. They go get married because their parents are/were married and society in general promotes marriage. If they are against marriage, it's typically not because of logic, but because they've been hurt and burned by it or something around it.

diehard03 said:

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f the relationship itself becomes more important than what both individuals seek to get out of the relationship for their individual benefit, then I guess that gets to the same place, though I couldn't rationally say why, apart from a "stay together for the children" argument.

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Humans really aren't rational. They go get married because their parents are/were married and society in general promotes marriage. If they are against marriage, it's typically not because of logic, but because they've been hurt and burned by it or something around it.

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Agreed. I would hope that Christians would have a better answer, but again, I don't necessarily have the impression that they do.

AstroAg17 said:

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Have y'all ever been to a bachelor party with strippers? I haven't, but I also haven't been to a ton of bachelor parties. For me and everyone I know, that would be way over the line. Maybe we're just no fun though.

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Yes I have, and I thought it was the least fun part of the trip.

AstroAg17 said:

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Have y'all ever been to a bachelor party with strippers? I haven't, but I also haven't been to a ton of bachelor parties. For me and everyone I know, that would be way over the line. Maybe we're just no fun though.

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I have been at bachelor parties where strippers or strip clubs would be part of the weekend, but I always excuse myself before that happened. I have no real interest in any of that.

Yep. It was fun.

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If you're a man who's friends with a gay couple, do you go to both bachelor parties or choose one?

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Asking the critical questions of our day.

For my bachelor party I want to sit in a circle and knit all night.

Do whatever you want.

There are some very interesting posts in this thread, and I'm glad I discovered this board. I have been married for 56 years to the same crazy woman. She may be the only one who would stay married to me. She was conditioned against divorce by being a Baptist preacher's daughter and I was by the fact only 1 of my 25 closest relatives experienced it. I have never understood female humans, have given up trying after living with three (mother, wife and daughter), try to stay out of the line of fire, and am pretty sure it wouldn't have lasted this long without God's help. If you want yours to last, I recommend invoking His assistance. While mine is beautiful, intelligent, and even has her own retirement income, her thought (?) processes are totally different from mine. I love her, but it's a little like loving an undomesticated animal. You have to be careful what you say or do. I still think that if they didn't have certain physical attractions, there'd be a bounty on'em.

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it's a little like loving an undomesticated animal. You have to be careful what you say or do. I still think that if they didn't have certain physical attractions, there'd be a bounty on'em.

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Talks purty, don't he?