k2aggie07 said:

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You should read Hosea sometime.

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I've been really happy that no one in authority told me to go marry a wh***.

I understand it as .. marry a woman who will be unfaithful, and when she leaves you, go get her back. Powerful stuff.

k2aggie07 said:

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I understand it as .. marry a woman who will be unfaithful, and when she leaves you, go get her back. Powerful stuff.

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Ezekiel told to lay on his side for 390 days and then the other side for 40 days, but I don't think anyone sees that as instructive. Prophets were sometimes living metaphors for God's relationship to His people, sometimes in very unpleasant ways. In this case Ezekiel was a literal metaphor for God suffering and enduring the bad behavior of Judah and Israel. Hosea was a metaphor for God choosing Israel knowing they would be unfaithful but continuing to try and restore that relationship.

Having been through a divorce in which I had no choice in the matter, I have a lot of mixed feelings on the subject and have done a lot of study. Seems to me that the ideal is a person devoted entirely to God, marriage is a happy, divinely approved concession to our human weaknesses, and divorce is an unhappy, divinely tolerated concession to our human weaknesses.

I completely agree with everything you've written. I was just pointing out that - at least in a scriptural view - infidelity doesn't inherently result in the termination of the covenant.

That's a little tricky. In the Mosaic Law, the appropriate punishment for adultery was death. Death definitely would end a marriage relationship. Pretty cut and dry. However, we live in an age of forgiveness, and we don't give people the death penalty for things like adultery, fornication, blasphemy, divination, etc. The move to forgiveness is a wonderful thing, but the legal applications of this get murky. That's why you see a lot of early Church writings talk about "mortal sins" or "sins that lead unto death". They are talking about sins that would have gotten someone executed under Mosaic Law.

So what's the legal status of someone who legally committed a deadly sin but wasn't executed? What happens to their marriage, their property, their contracts, their debts? Do we treat them as pardoned and continue all their obligations, contracts and vows? Or do we nullify all of these as if they had been killed as the law prescribes? I want to say the more mercy the better, but I don't always embody that.

I think God probably understands the Mosaic Law better than anyone. He didn't tell Hosea to violate it by not stoning his adulterous wife. Nor did He allow people to stone the woman caught in adultery.

I think they are sins that *could* have gotten someone executed. Not *would*. And I think reading the idea of death in the fathers - or even in St Paul or OT writings! - as exclusively speaking of physical death vice spiritual is not correct.

The standard of the Lord is always - if you repent and turn, sins are forgiven. Always. If you don't, justice is measured out to the threes and fours, or as many times as necessary.

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The standard of the Lord is always - if you repent and turn, sins are forgiven. Always. If you don't, justice is measured out to the threes and fours, or as many times as necessary.

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I agree with you under the New Covenant, but I don't think that always tracks in the Old. Just look at Numbers 35. It specifically talks about murder and manslaughter, but the point is made clearly that murderers can't be spared under any circumstances, and people who commit manslaughter must stay in a place of refuge for the rest of their lives no matter what.

I met my wife with a "howdy" while I was sitting at the tables that used to be outside of Walton. We started dating a few weeks after that, and not shortly thereafter I informed my best friend that I was in a special type of trouble. We got engaged our sophomore year, I was confirmed at St. Mary's our junior year, and we married at the beginning of our last semester.

I agree that marriage has been hard work. There have been lots of shouting, hours and hours of very painful conversations acknowledging our own faults and weaknesses that we inherited from our parents. We attended couples counseling while we were engaged and that managed to tear down a significant number of roadblocks once the pride got out of the way. Even at the most difficult of times, we never once considered (realistically) ending the relationship. The harder option is definitely staying together, and definitely isn't for everyone.

We celebrated our second anniversary just a couple months ago. Might not be comparatively very long, but ya gotta start somewhere

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Even at the most difficult of times, we never once considered (realistically) ending the relationship. The harder option is definitely staying together, and definitely isn't for everyone.

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The way you're talking about it, I would argue that it IS for everyone. You seem to be excluding abuse, lack of effort by the other party, etc.

I'm certainly no expert, but divorce in modern Judaism is fascinating as a contrast to modern Christianity. In Orthodox Judaism a man is required to fulfill his wife's needs, whether financial, emotional, or sexual. If he does not, or is unfaithful, then she can request a divorce. Regardless of who wants the divorce however, only the man can finalize a divorce by writing a bill of divorce. Polygamy is still not technically illegal in some circles of Orthodox Judaism, so a man can abandon one wife and marry another woman. However, the woman is still stuck and considered married.

So there is a whole social movement in Orthodox Judaism to shame neglectful husbands to divorce their wives and basically set them free. Some rabbis have ruled it sinful to deny a woman a bill of divorce. It's a different way of looking at things for sure

WaltonAg18 said:

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I met my wife with a "howdy" while I was sitting at the tables that used to be outside of Walton. We started dating a few weeks after that, and not shortly thereafter I informed my best friend that I was in a special type of trouble. We got engaged our sophomore year, I was confirmed at St. Mary's our junior year, and we married at the beginning of our last semester.

I agree that marriage has been hard work. There have been lots of shouting, hours and hours of very painful conversations acknowledging our own faults and weaknesses that we inherited from our parents. We attended couples counseling while we were engaged and that managed to tear down a significant number of roadblocks once the pride got out of the way. Even at the most difficult of times, we never once considered (realistically) ending the relationship. The harder option is definitely staying together, and definitely isn't for everyone.

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That's good but the issue is that years into a marriage many people do realistically think about ending it. Your story is very typical and your relationship is very new. Doesn't mean you will have issues but only time will tell.

k2aggie07 said:

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And yet, David.

Nothing changed under the old and new covenant. Forgiveness was always there. God is who He is.

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Ya I've noticed that many Christians do not get this. I always laugh when I see certain Protestant pastors talk about the Old Testament in a negative light. I always stop them and discuss Christ in pre-incarnate form.

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That's good but the issue is that years into a marriage many people do realistically think about ending it. Your story is very typical and your relationship is very new. Doesn't mean you will have issues but only time will tell.

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10 years in. While I hold to the same view as Walton in regards to divorce being off the table, I completely understand why its an option for many people. It is really easy to focus on your own feelings of "misery" and be short sighted.

I say "misery" because often not actual misery...and in my situation, it's definitely not misery. But it's easy to escalate your situation and sabotage yourself and your relationship.

Oh I agree with both of you. I'm just saying the reality of the situation is beyond us and goes back very far. Modernity and the philosophies that accompany that are ruining marriages. I was just divorced after about 10 years and I can tell your first hand that if your spouses worldview changes then you are screwed. Some people never go through that and that's a blessing. I would say the key factor is a strong relationship with Christ and a full understanding of what exactly marriage is.

Larry Lajitas said:

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Oh I agree with both of you. I'm just saying the reality of the situation is beyond us and goes back very far. Modernity and the philosophies that accompany that are ruining marriages. I was just divorced after about 10 years and I can tell your first hand that if your spouses worldview changes then you are screwed. Some people never go through that and that's a blessing. I would say the key factor is a strong relationship with Christ and a full understanding of what exactly marriage is.

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Amen to that. People change over time. You won't be the same person in 10 years and neither will your spouse. Bodies change, jobs change, lifestyles change, politics change, locations change, interests change and on and on. When I was first married I always thought renewing vows was dumb. After all, you already committed to that person for your entire life. Now I think I would consider it essential. It's important after 5 or 10 years to have each person reiterate their commitment even after all the changes in the couple, their life, and the world in general.