yossarian?
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Last: 6 yr ago by Doc Daneeka
And they refined western democratic thought...
Gravity is also real btw and the world is not flat... Lol
Gravity is also real btw and the world is not flat... Lol
Puffing the chest for something that's not even the mission of the church?Doc Daneeka said:
And they refined western democratic thought...
I live in Atlanta, in the heart of the Bible Belt. Most of the people around me and younger are going to the megachurches. They have great music, lots of great visual teachings, etc. The doctrine is especially easy, too - say the sinner's prayer and your in for all of eternity, don't say it and you're burning in hell.k2aggie07 said:
People aren't objecting to what you're saying. They're objecting to how you're saying it.
"Rah rah protestants are great" and "boo Catholics" make up like 1/3 of the threads on here.
Frequently, I hear misconceptions about what the Catholic Church preaches. Especially if it comes from somebody with a microphone or a pulpit. I don't really mind when someone says Catholics are evil, belong to a cult, or bring up the Crusades or the Inquisition. All of our religious ancestors lived through the Dark Ages, only some of us are willing to admit it. To me, though, the most irksome thing is that the Catholic Church has a Catechism which is easily available and which gives the official Catholic teaching about almost any subject one could imagine. Despite this, there are those who, deliberately or not, misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church. When I see it, I try to correct it.
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Honestly, I just wish we'd shift our focus to pointing out the "bad" in the other denominations, and instead find the common ground. But, this Protestant triumphalism that Doc is pushing really pushes on idolatry of Protestantism, IMO. There are Catholics that I've seen post here who seem to do the same w/ the RCC, so it's not solely a Protestant problem.
But when you're so quick to slander or insult fellow brothers and sisters in Christ because they aren't part of your group, then there's a problem. It reeks of tribalism.
But when you're so quick to slander or insult fellow brothers and sisters in Christ because they aren't part of your group, then there's a problem. It reeks of tribalism.
This one is a good start. Actually, I would call it a great start.
https://mediaweb.saintleo.edu/courses/REL210RS/REL210RS_JointDeclaration.pdf
https://mediaweb.saintleo.edu/courses/REL210RS/REL210RS_JointDeclaration.pdf
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Kool said:
This one is a good start. Actually, I would call it a great start.
https://mediaweb.saintleo.edu/courses/REL210RS/REL210RS_JointDeclaration.pdf
AstroAg17 said:
Mexicans are typically catholic
How about France? Mostly Catholic. A number of enlightenment thinkers came from France.Doc Daneeka said:
Spain and Portugal were Catholic... Do I need to list all the other Protestants or can we agree
That there are millions more Protestants...
Agreed. Let's start with the symbol of faith. That's what they're for.
AstroAg17 said:
I don't believe, but if I did, I think I'd have to be catholic. Their apologetics literature is unmatched in my experience. Maybe K2 could talk me into orthodoxy.
That volume of literature has the opposite effect on me.
MIllions more Protestants than what? Roman Catholicism outnumbers all Protestants combined by 2:1.
AstroAg17 said:
Why?
I think religious belief is fine. In many cases, it's profoundly good and helpful to people. The thing I don't like is the dogma and the absolutism associated with religions.
There is value and beauty in the phisolophy and literature, yes. None of that beauty serves as proof of the truthfulness of the core claims . . . Honestly, it seems to me like The Catholics had this story on the nature of God and his relationship to People and instead of leaving it there, they wrote more and more chapters to the story inventing more and more elaborate narratives the same way a pathalogical liar has to weave a more and more elaborate web of lies to cover previous lies and make all the connections work out. That sounds harsh and I don't mean to suggest Catholics are pathological liars.
But, Catholics don't simply believe there is a God and Jesus is his son and that the rest is unproven conjecture . The list of things Catholics must believe to be true just seems a whole heck of a lot longer than anyone else's. And it seems a whole lot longer than it needs to be.
The mountain of literature turns me off because It takes an already unfalsifiable claim that must be accepted as truth and just piled on the dogma.
I don't really understand what you're talking about.
Actual dogma is not very extensive, as far as I know.
This is kind of like saying that philosophy is pathological because people write new papers explaining why previous papers are right and expanding on those ideas.
Actual dogma is not very extensive, as far as I know.
This is kind of like saying that philosophy is pathological because people write new papers explaining why previous papers are right and expanding on those ideas.
k2aggie07 said:
This is kind of like saying that philosophy is pathological because people write new papers explaining why previous papers are right and expanding on those ideas.
Philosophy doesn't have a council with divine and infallible authority that declares which papers are right and which expansions of those ideas are to be true.
Eh, doesn't it, de facto?
Who believes in the Philosophy of Plato any more?
Logical positivism is discredited.
History is littered with failed and discarded philosophy.
Who believes in the Philosophy of Plato any more?
Logical positivism is discredited.
History is littered with failed and discarded philosophy.
Philosophy does have a divinely authoritarian council which strikes down philosophies or bolsters them up? Who sits on this council?
Philosophies fall by the wayside because they are discredited or fall out of fashion. Christianity cannot be falsified and The Catholic Church claims divine authority to interpret the teachings of Christ.
Philosophies fall by the wayside because they are discredited or fall out of fashion. Christianity cannot be falsified and The Catholic Church claims divine authority to interpret the teachings of Christ.
De facto Council, sure. PC police play that role today.
The Roman church is all jacked up on their definition of the magisterium. Infallibility is quite a bit more nuanced in orthodoxy. But even then, there really aren't that many litmus test type dogmas.
The Roman church is all jacked up on their definition of the magisterium. Infallibility is quite a bit more nuanced in orthodoxy. But even then, there really aren't that many litmus test type dogmas.
I may be misusing the term dogma.
Quote:
I ain't skeered. New poster? Doc Daneeka. Not because he/she is a protestant triumphalist or ignorant of basic history, political philosophy, or theology... but because he/she is a troll and a liar in his/her own words.
This is a big boy board for people to be nice and discuss things with at least a little bit of thought and respect. It's not that hard.
If you want to troll people go to general or old rivalries. If you want to flame bait go to politics. If you want to unscrew the inscrutable over a beer, post her. Or gtfo.
Post her? I don't even know her!
If I could have a do-over to my original response to Astro's 'why'.
I think religion has value insomuch as it teaches us to respect and love one another, grow stable and healthy societies, and the personal benefit that comes with the spiritual experience many get.
It seems to me that Catholics (opposed to Protestants and other Christians) put more importance on doctrine, what must be accepted as truth, traditions, hierarchy, and the 'correctness' of faith. Is it really that important if I pray to the saints or not, or have the correct view of The Trinity, or believe in the church's authority? If there is a God, I think he'd be happier if we weren't all such *******s to one another.
I think religion has value insomuch as it teaches us to respect and love one another, grow stable and healthy societies, and the personal benefit that comes with the spiritual experience many get.
It seems to me that Catholics (opposed to Protestants and other Christians) put more importance on doctrine, what must be accepted as truth, traditions, hierarchy, and the 'correctness' of faith. Is it really that important if I pray to the saints or not, or have the correct view of The Trinity, or believe in the church's authority? If there is a God, I think he'd be happier if we weren't all such *******s to one another.
I don't you have the same approach to physics or chemistry.
If you want to study a faith, and there's a basic claim that the faith is true...why would anyone be ok with false claims about it?
Would a physics say "well you can ignore gravity if you want, I guess - let's just all focus on enjoying physics."
If you want to study a faith, and there's a basic claim that the faith is true...why would anyone be ok with false claims about it?
Would a physics say "well you can ignore gravity if you want, I guess - let's just all focus on enjoying physics."
Sure, kind of.
We can sort of test some branches though. Either by logic or by empirical evidence by efficacy.
Physics was a bad analogy - economics would maybe be better.
We can sort of test some branches though. Either by logic or by empirical evidence by efficacy.
Physics was a bad analogy - economics would maybe be better.
Of course they should. God didn't make us automatons. Who argued otherwise?
k2aggie07 said:
Of course they should. God didn't make us automatons. Who argued otherwise?
I think this is true but also a big disconnect. For the non-theist to concede that if our belief that God exists is true, it follows naturally that many other things are possible, is quite problematic. Not that Astro falls into this category but I've heard it play out in podcast debates and other forums.
Because the catholic church is a political organization.AstroAg17 said:
So along those lines, why shouldn't someone who feels they have a logical point of contention with a church teaching be able to explore it? Why should they have to ignore their own reason to remain consistent with the all-or-nothing approach of the church?
I've never had anyone interrogate me. The symbol of faith is the litmus test plus a few declarations when you get baptized. There aren't that many anathemas, all told.
And you'd have to do quite a bit to actually get excommunicated from a Latin church I'd imagine.
And you'd have to do quite a bit to actually get excommunicated from a Latin church I'd imagine.
Actually, the Catholic Church "allows" disagreement about many things.AstroAg17 said:
The Catholic Church doesn't allow disagreement about many things.
I can appreciate the argument that if one disagrees with an indisputable tenet of Catholicism, then one may not be considered a catholic, so it's reasonable that the church doesn't allow dissent. Still, there aren't really any options for those who simply don't agree with any one catholic teaching. There is no church for the guy who accepts everything but one thing, is there?
Really, to be Catholic, all you really "must" believe is:
Quote:
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
People of integrity expect to be believed, when they're not, they let time prove them right.
AstroAg17 said:
The Catholic Church doesn't allow disagreement about many things.
I can appreciate the argument that if one disagrees with an indisputable tenet of Catholicism, then one may not be considered a catholic, so it's reasonable that the church doesn't allow dissent. Still, there aren't really any options for those who simply don't agree with any one catholic teaching. There is no church for the guy who accepts everything but one thing, is there?
I think there are legions of those guys who just keep their disagreements to themselves just because it's easier.
And, does anyone actually believe what Dad-O just wrote? Doubt it.
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