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It just is
Is there a rational echo in here? Good work.
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It just is
quote:Yeah, that quote is somewhat self-contradicting.quote:
The world around us is abundant proof man is fallen and in desperate need of a savior. Thankfully Jesus paid the ultimate price to be that savior.
Too bad he couldn't get the job done.
quote:I think the fundamental distinction between the believer and the atheist is humility versus arrogance. The post quoted illustrates this quite well.
I for one am glad I no longer have to try to compare myself to a standard established by a god that feels no need to follow his own rules.
quote:You're just trollin', right? No one would make the mistake of describing the christians on this site as a whole as "humble". There are a few who come across that way, but your scorn and condescension should suffice as evidence that there is no truth to the humble christian stereotype.quote:I think the fundamental distinction between the believer and the atheist is humility versus arrogance. The post quoted illustrates this quite well.
I for one am glad I no longer have to try to compare myself to a standard established by a god that feels no need to follow his own rules.
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I think the fundamental distinction between the believer and the atheist is humility versus arrogance
quote:Agreed. Religion is organized insanity.
It's interesting the thought process that takes a statement about wanting to be held to a fair standard and turns it into arrogance.
quote:quote:I think the fundamental distinction between the believer and the atheist is humility versus arrogance. The post quoted illustrates this quite well.
I for one am glad I no longer have to try to compare myself to a standard established by a god that feels no need to follow his own rules.
quote:I find that interesting too. Religion claims to have answers to all these big questions, with no evidence to back them up, and often those answers are in direct conflict with the evidence we do have and can observe.
It's interesting the thought process that takes a statement about wanting to be held to a fair standard and turns it into arrogance.
quote:And yet it tries to, over and over again. In a very arrogant way. I honestly don't care what you believe the point of it is. I was just addressing the notion that atheists are somehow the arrogant ones here.
The point of religion isn't to answer science questions
quote:Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.
Even if people try to use religion to justify creationism, it isn't the point of why Jesus came to earth to die. He died so you could have a relationship with him.
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It's not just natural to us, it's natural to the entire animal kingdom. And as there is no evidence for any other state of existence there's no reason to think that this state has any inherent good or bad nature to it, especially in comparison to a mythical Eden state of existence where carnivores ate fruits and vegetables instead of other animals. It just is. Life on earth has always been a battle for survival. That's not a sin nature, it's life.
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It's not just natural to us, it's natural to the entire animal kingdom. And as there is no evidence for any other state of existence there's no reason to think that this state has any inherent good or bad nature to it, especially in comparison to a mythical Eden state of existence where carnivores ate fruits and vegetables instead of other animals. It just is. Life on earth has always been a battle for survival. That's not a sin nature, it's life.
Look at the lists again. Those actions that arise from the sin nature lead humanity more towards prison than survival. Doing some of those actions could allow one to survive in isolated occasions but they coudl also get one killed. Lying, outbursts of anger, and pride are natural to the animal kingdom? We do not accuse cats of murder when they kill a bird, and we do not fault a buck for breeding as many doe as possible. If you have a son do you want him to "naturally spread" his see as much as possible? What restrictions are you putting on him and why? If you have a daughter how would you feel about her choosing a mate that has this mind set? "Sir, your daughter was in heat so I just did what we had to do to survive." Most likely he wouldn't' survive the conversation.
Example: My wife and I baby sat the nephews this past weekend. The 4 year is makes up story after story. What did you do in church? Played minecraft. Really? Yeah and I turned in a zombie, no I turned into 2 zombies, no I turned in to 5 zombies, no it was twenty zombies? Are you telling the truth? no. He is lying for attention. It's pride locked into our fallen human nature. We want people to revere us, to worship us, to esteem us highly. Pride could be a survival instinct but it's often not. It's a selfish instinct with no survival value.
Lying was not taught to him. This came from his own "sin nature" and because he has a sin nature he sins. We all do.
quote:But your point is you understand what Christianity is, that God loves all of us, we have done wrong, and Christ died to atone for that wrongdoing, and he calls us to follow him in a life of love towards him and our fellow man. That is it. It doesn't matter how arrogant anyone is when they understand what the truth of the matter is.quote:And yet it tries to, over and over again. In a very arrogant way. I honestly don't care what you believe the point of it is. I was just addressing the notion that atheists are somehow the arrogant ones here.
The point of religion isn't to answer science questions
quote:Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.
Even if people try to use religion to justify creationism, it isn't the point of why Jesus came to earth to die. He died so you could have a relationship with him.
quote:No, that's not my point at all. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I'm not talking about how any one person is acting. I'm saying religion as an institution is by its nature arrogant for the reasons I described in my initial post. I'm also making no comment on the whole Jesus dying for our alleged sins or walking in love with him or whatever.
But your point is you understand what Christianity is, that God loves all of us, we have done wrong, and Christ died to atone for that wrongdoing, and he calls us to follow him in a life of love towards him and our fellow man. That is it. It doesn't matter how arrogant anyone is when they understand what the truth of the matter is.
quote:I really don't understand what I'm being unclear about. I'm not talking about god(s). I'm talking about their fan clubs.
God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.
You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.
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first of all, you have a pretty skewed view of children if you think little kids using their imagination and being silly is an example of a sin nature. do you have children? I kind of hope you're joking because that's not a very good mentality to have with little kids. my son says he is superman and can fly. he's just being a child.
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"lying, outbursts of anger, and pride" are human acts that are titles we give to urges/behaviors that are basic in all (mammalian at least) life.
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lying: typically done as a way to avoid punishment or gain something not deserved. seems natural and universal to me
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outbursts of anger: responses to perceived injustice are well documented in nature
pride: check out a peacock some time
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as for your other arguments, that's where teaching them how to conduct themselves in society comes into play. do I really have to explain that?
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Another view
1. We are a cosmic accident or the product of some amazing unlikely random process.
2. We are not distinguishable from nature.
3. We are ancestors of ________ fill in the blank.
4. Our behaviors are only impulses.
5. We are born, we live, we see both good and bad, and suffer for no purpose.
6. We die and are recycled food for worms.
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Is my view a Debbie Downer view or skewed view?
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2. I do think we are indistinguishable from nature, but don't understand why that's a bad thing.
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3. Evolution (whether you think it occurs microscopically or only microscopically) is undeniable and, I think, incredibly interesting. Surely, any person whose amazement for nature does not dwarf their repulsion to the proposition of being related to 'an animal' has not looked closely enough at nature.
Yes (only microscopically - I believe) is undeniable and you are right is incredibly interesting. As far are your second statement, it's not an issue at looking closely enough at nature or not, we simply differ on the conclusions. You may look at the same picture of nature and see a common ancestor and I look with the exact same intensity and see a common Creator with distinctions amongst the creation.
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4. Possibly. Do you reject the idea for logical reasons or because it is unsettling?
Our behaviors can be impulsive and led by various impulses however to claim that all behavior is reduced to "impulses" is not something I or I think many would concede. If you are married you are probably aware that you can behave impulsively and non-impulsively and the previous usually has negative consequences. Exercising forgiveness is probably one of the most non-impulsive behaviors one can perform.
King Solomon wrote:
Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. 2 Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few. Ecc.5:1-3
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6. So it goes . . . Vonnegut readers will get the reference
I had remembered reading that.
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that is to say, I believe one is based more in wishful thinking and one is based more on reality.
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do i expect my three year old to three year old to tell the truth when things get serious? no, not really. he thinks automatic water faucets are magic, and that peter pan is real. he doesn't yet fully understand the difference between truth and what ever he makes up.
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do you think all mammals have a sin nature? because it's the same core motivation in us as it is in them. they have either the same sin nature as we do, or there is no such thing. if you think they also have a sin nature, then i think we can safely end this discussion now.
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because to do other wise would leave them horribly unprepared for life among other people. lying means people never trust what you say. stealing means you don't value others' property and are never allowed near them. murder means you may likely be killed your self because others must stop you before you harm them as well.
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i understand you think it's as a result of a sin nature. i don't think that sin nature exists, and my posts have explained that. my motivation is , yes, tied to my children having a successful, high quality of life. i disagree that there is a sin nature that i'm combating. just like there is no sin nature i'm combating when trying to train my dog not to steal food off the table. it's a drive for life that must be directed, not fought as something evil.
quote:Fan clubs dont matter, you know the message of God. That he has a right to be arrogant for what he has done for you.quote:I really don't understand what I'm being unclear about. I'm not talking about god(s). I'm talking about their fan clubs.
God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.
You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.
quote:So in other words you don't actually care about my point. Ok then.quote:Fan clubs dont matter, you know the message of God. That he has a right to be arrogant for what he has done for you.quote:I really don't understand what I'm being unclear about. I'm not talking about god(s). I'm talking about their fan clubs.
God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.
You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.
quote:Your point shows that God has a right to be arrogant, that the message of Christianity is the greatest message ever told and should be preached to all even if called arrogant, that the message of Christianity isn't of science but of salvation, and that you know what the message is.quote:So in other words you don't actually care about my point. Ok then.quote:Fan clubs dont matter, you know the message of God. That he has a right to be arrogant for what he has done for you.quote:I really don't understand what I'm being unclear about. I'm not talking about god(s). I'm talking about their fan clubs.
God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.
You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.