quote:

---

It just is

---

Is there a rational echo in here? Good work.

quote:

---

quote:

---

The world around us is abundant proof man is fallen and in desperate need of a savior. Thankfully Jesus paid the ultimate price to be that savior.

---

Too bad he couldn't get the job done.

---

Yeah, that quote is somewhat self-contradicting.

quote:

---

I for one am glad I no longer have to try to compare myself to a standard established by a god that feels no need to follow his own rules.

---

I think the fundamental distinction between the believer and the atheist is humility versus arrogance. The post quoted illustrates this quite well.

quote:

---

quote:

---

I for one am glad I no longer have to try to compare myself to a standard established by a god that feels no need to follow his own rules.

---

I think the fundamental distinction between the believer and the atheist is humility versus arrogance. The post quoted illustrates this quite well.

---

You're just trollin', right? No one would make the mistake of describing the christians on this site as a whole as "humble". There are a few who come across that way, but your scorn and condescension should suffice as evidence that there is no truth to the humble christian stereotype.

quote:

---

I think the fundamental distinction between the believer and the atheist is humility versus arrogance

---

Lol!

It's interesting the thought process that takes a statement about wanting to be held to a fair standard and turns it into arrogance.

quote:

---

It's interesting the thought process that takes a statement about wanting to be held to a fair standard and turns it into arrogance.

---

Agreed. Religion is organized insanity.

quote:

---

quote:

---

I for one am glad I no longer have to try to compare myself to a standard established by a god that feels no need to follow his own rules.

---

I think the fundamental distinction between the believer and the atheist is humility versus arrogance. The post quoted illustrates this quite well.

---

Just what religion wants.. submissiveness. 1. inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient: submissive servants.

Christianity- God wants us to submit to love. I know this is crazy talk. I posted link on St. Francis - folks thought he was crazy. Who kisses a leper? Someone who submits to love.

Who willing dies for his enemies on a cross? Someone who submits to love.

quote:

---

It's interesting the thought process that takes a statement about wanting to be held to a fair standard and turns it into arrogance.

---

I find that interesting too. Religion claims to have answers to all these big questions, with no evidence to back them up, and often those answers are in direct conflict with the evidence we do have and can observe.

When it's not reducing the universe in all its complexity to having Earth at its center (as it used to do), or diminishing the billions of years it's been around to just the past 6,000 (as some do now), it at best takes the vastness of time and space and places our flash-in-the-pan species on this one tiny planet in this one tiny portion of the universe at this particular point in time, and says "all this was created for us, and not only that - we're created in the image of the being who created it! (except we're 'wretched' somehow at the same time, but that's another issue). Oh, and that infinite being who created all this? He loves you, listens to you, and helps you."

But it's the nonbelievers who are being arrogant.

You nailed it though, you understood the point. The point of religion isn't to answer science questions, but to have a relationship with God. Even if people try to use religion to justify creationism, it isn't the point of why Jesus came to earth to die. He died so you could have a relationship with him.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14

it's a good thing the bible comes with all sorts of verses telling you that people who don't buy into your beliefs are just blind. it really comes in handy when you have nothing else to try to persuade them with.

I am not eloquent enough to persuade you kind sir, only the Spirit can.

God bless and Happy Thanksgiving!

May your turkey be succulent and your yams as sweet as honey.

quote:

---

The point of religion isn't to answer science questions

---

And yet it tries to, over and over again. In a very arrogant way. I honestly don't care what you believe the point of it is. I was just addressing the notion that atheists are somehow the arrogant ones here.

quote:

---

Even if people try to use religion to justify creationism, it isn't the point of why Jesus came to earth to die. He died so you could have a relationship with him.

---

Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.

quote:

---

It's not just natural to us, it's natural to the entire animal kingdom. And as there is no evidence for any other state of existence there's no reason to think that this state has any inherent good or bad nature to it, especially in comparison to a mythical Eden state of existence where carnivores ate fruits and vegetables instead of other animals. It just is. Life on earth has always been a battle for survival. That's not a sin nature, it's life.

---

Look at the lists again. Those actions that arise from the sin nature lead humanity more towards prison than survival. Doing some of those actions could allow one to survive in isolated occasions but they coudl also get one killed. Lying, outbursts of anger, and pride are natural to the animal kingdom? We do not accuse cats of murder when they kill a bird, and we do not fault a buck for breeding as many doe as possible. If you have a son do you want him to "naturally spread" his see as much as possible? What restrictions are you putting on him and why? If you have a daughter how would you feel about her choosing a mate that has this mind set? "Sir, your daughter was in heat so I just did what we had to do to survive." Most likely he wouldn't' survive the conversation.

Example: My wife and I baby sat the nephews this past weekend. The 4 year is makes up story after story. What did you do in church? Played minecraft. Really? Yeah and I turned in a zombie, no I turned into 2 zombies, no I turned in to 5 zombies, no it was twenty zombies? Are you telling the truth? no. He is lying for attention. It's pride locked into our fallen human nature. We want people to revere us, to worship us, to esteem us highly. Pride could be a survival instinct but it's often not. It's a selfish instinct with no survival value.

Lying was not taught to him. This came from his own "sin nature" and because he has a sin nature he sins. We all do.

quote:

---

quote:

---

The point of religion isn't to answer science questions

---

And yet it tries to, over and over again. In a very arrogant way. I honestly don't care what you believe the point of it is. I was just addressing the notion that atheists are somehow the arrogant ones here.

quote:

---

Even if people try to use religion to justify creationism, it isn't the point of why Jesus came to earth to die. He died so you could have a relationship with him.

---

Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making.

---

But your point is you understand what Christianity is, that God loves all of us, we have done wrong, and Christ died to atone for that wrongdoing, and he calls us to follow him in a life of love towards him and our fellow man. That is it. It doesn't matter how arrogant anyone is when they understand what the truth of the matter is.

The truth of the matter..

Is that you have been incorrectly taught that you have done wrong.

quote:

---

But your point is you understand what Christianity is, that God loves all of us, we have done wrong, and Christ died to atone for that wrongdoing, and he calls us to follow him in a life of love towards him and our fellow man. That is it. It doesn't matter how arrogant anyone is when they understand what the truth of the matter is.

---

No, that's not my point at all. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I'm not talking about how any one person is acting. I'm saying religion as an institution is by its nature arrogant for the reasons I described in my initial post. I'm also making no comment on the whole Jesus dying for our alleged sins or walking in love with him or whatever.

The assertion was that atheists are arrogant for not believing in (your) god. I was just pointing out the arrogance of a belief system that posits that something powerful enough to create such vast time/space plane of existence did so for us, wants to have a relationship with us, and cares what's going on in our lives that might as well be non-existent on a cosmic scale.

The same argument goes for any religion where a creator being does any of those things.

God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.

You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.

quote:

---

God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.

You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.

---

I really don't understand what I'm being unclear about. I'm not talking about god(s). I'm talking about their fan clubs.

quote:

---

first of all, you have a pretty skewed view of children if you think little kids using their imagination and being silly is an example of a sin nature. do you have children? I kind of hope you're joking because that's not a very good mentality to have with little kids. my son says he is superman and can fly. he's just being a child.

---

If you think I have a skewed view of children I think your missing my point. A child using their imagination is a wonderful and beautiful thing. However lying is a sin. Do you expect little Superman to tell the truth when the discussions get serious?

quote:

---

"lying, outbursts of anger, and pride" are human acts that are titles we give to urges/behaviors that are basic in all (mammalian at least) life.

---

You have observed my point you just give it a different name. These behaviors are also examples of what you Bible calls "sin". We do those things because with are born with a nature that is bent towards sin. What about love? Tell you wife, I only love you because it's a natural impulse and I don't have a choice.

quote:

---

lying: typically done as a way to avoid punishment or gain something not deserved. seems natural and universal to me

---

It is natural and universal because in my view, we are born with a sinful nature and therefor we commit acts of sin. The question is, "If lying is natural, no matter what the motivation, is natural, why do we correct this behavior as they grow up". It's because we know that its wrong to lie when things get serious.

quote:

---

outbursts of anger: responses to perceived injustice are well documented in nature
pride: check out a peacock some time

---

Sure, you can find exceptions of some of the behaviors in nature, but why our standard for them different than humans?

quote:

---

as for your other arguments, that's where teaching them how to conduct themselves in society comes into play. do I really have to explain that?

---

We teach them because we love them and whether we admit it or not, want them to follow the moral code outlined in the Bible: do not lie, do not steal, do not murder. We have to teach them to do what's morally right because if not, they will give in more and more to their natural "sinful" nature.

Is my view a Debbie Downer view or skewed view?
1. I believe that God created humans uniquely in His image and that He's assigned them a greater value.
2. He was created with a purpose, to rule over and take care of His creation.
3. Humans give birth to other humans.
4. The sin of Adam had consequences causing all of his decedents to be born with a sinful nature, that is observed by you guys just given other names like "natural behaviors" or "natural impules"
5. God died for all of the sinful acts of all mankind and offers forgiveness for all moral crimes ever committed.
6. For all humans who place their faith in His Son for forgiveness, God will give them a new nature that is not a sinful, no more pain, no more suffering. Our love will be perfected and no longer done out of our selfish motives.

Another view
1. We are a cosmic accident or the product of some amazing unlikely random process.
2. We are not distinguishable from nature.
3. We are ancestors of ________ fill in the blank.
4. Our behaviors are only impulses.
5. We are born, we live, we see both good and bad, and suffer for no purpose.
6. We die and are recycled food for worms.

quote:

---

Another view
1. We are a cosmic accident or the product of some amazing unlikely random process.
2. We are not distinguishable from nature.
3. We are ancestors of ________ fill in the blank.
4. Our behaviors are only impulses.
5. We are born, we live, we see both good and bad, and suffer for no purpose.
6. We die and are recycled food for worms.

---

I don't think this is too far off from what I think. In response to each item:

1. I do believe that our existence is the product of an incredible series of events.
2. I do think we are indistinguishable from nature, but don't understand why that's a bad thing.
3. Evolution (whether you think it occurs microscopically or only microscopically) is undeniable and, I think, incredibly interesting. Surely, any person whose amazement for nature does not dwarf their repulsion to the proposition of being related to 'an animal' has not looked closely enough at nature.
4. Possibly. Do you reject the idea for logical reasons or because it is unsettling?
6. So it goes . . . Vonnegut readers will get the reference

I skipped 5 because it is the one part I don't agree with. I yield the floor to Mr. Carl Sagan (watch the last minute if nothing else). Great Words

I think that a lot of believers view non belief as being synonymous with having a very pessimistic outlook of reality. I think that the vast majority of non believers disagree.

quote:

---

Is my view a Debbie Downer view or skewed view?

---

I don't think either view is a Debbie Downer view, but I do believe that one of them is more skewed than the other. . . that is to say, I believe one is based more in wishful thinking and one is based more on reality.

"If you think I have a skewed view of children I think your missing my point. A child using their imagination is a wonderful and beautiful
thing. However lying is a sin. Do you expect little Superman to tell
the truth when the discussions get serious? "

do i expect my three year old to three year old to tell the truth when things get serious? no, not really. he thinks automatic water faucets are magic, and that peter pan is real. he doesn't yet fully understand the difference between truth and what ever he makes up.

"You have observed my point you just give it a different name. These behaviors are also examples of what you Bible calls "sin". We do those
things because with are born with a nature that is bent towards sin.
What about love? Tell you wife, I only love you because it's a natural
impulse and I don't have a choice. "

do you think all mammals have a sin nature? because it's the same core motivation in us as it is in them. they have either the same sin nature as we do, or there is no such thing. if you think they also have a sin nature, then i think we can safely end this discussion now.

"It is natural and universal because in my view, we are born with a sinful nature and therefor we commit acts of sin. The question is, "If
lying is natural, no matter what the motivation, is natural, why do we
correct this behavior as they grow up". It's because we know that its
wrong to lie when things get serious."

we correct it because we know that they will be outcasts and dysfunctional members of society if we allow these behaviors to continue.

"Sure, you can find exceptions of some of the behaviors in nature, but why our standard for them different than humans?"

they aren't humans. dogs don't wear pants. humans do. humans and dogs both drink mother's milk, but they aren't the same socially. we have similar impulses and drives but we aren't the same.

"We teach them because we love them and whether we admit it or not, want them to follow the moral code outlined in the Bible: do not lie, do not
steal, do not murder. We have to teach them to do what's morally right
because if not, they will give in more and more to their natural
"sinful" nature. "

we teach them to behave properly, not because the bible tells them to (as if it the original source of moral code) but because to do other wise would leave them horribly unprepared for life among other people. lying means people never trust what you say. stealing means you don't value others' property and are never allowed near them. murder means you may likely be killed your self because others must stop you before you harm them as well. FYI: lying, stealing, and murder would still be unacceptable if the bible had never been written.

Kurt - I appreciate the response.

quote:

---

2. I do think we are indistinguishable from nature, but don't understand why that's a bad thing.

---

Humanity and the animal kingdom, in my view, was created by the same Creator. The similarities are abundant, but so are the differences between the creatures. Humanity in God's eyes is unique and has certain responsibilities and abilities that we do not see in the animal kingdom.

Why do we consider it okay to own dogs, fish, cats, but not people?

quote:

---

3. Evolution (whether you think it occurs microscopically or only microscopically) is undeniable and, I think, incredibly interesting. Surely, any person whose amazement for nature does not dwarf their repulsion to the proposition of being related to 'an animal' has not looked closely enough at nature.

Yes (only microscopically - I believe) is undeniable and you are right is incredibly interesting. As far are your second statement, it's not an issue at looking closely enough at nature or not, we simply differ on the conclusions. You may look at the same picture of nature and see a common ancestor and I look with the exact same intensity and see a common Creator with distinctions amongst the creation.

quote:

---

4. Possibly. Do you reject the idea for logical reasons or because it is unsettling?

---

Our behaviors can be impulsive and led by various impulses however to claim that all behavior is reduced to "impulses" is not something I or I think many would concede. If you are married you are probably aware that you can behave impulsively and non-impulsively and the previous usually has negative consequences. Exercising forgiveness is probably one of the most non-impulsive behaviors one can perform.

King Solomon wrote:
Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil. 2 Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few. Ecc.5:1-3

quote:

---

6. So it goes . . . Vonnegut readers will get the reference

---

I had remembered reading that.

quote:

---

that is to say, I believe one is based more in wishful thinking and one is based more on reality.

---

---

Me too, just the opposite view.

quote:

---

do i expect my three year old to three year old to tell the truth when things get serious? no, not really. he thinks automatic water faucets are magic, and that peter pan is real. he doesn't yet fully understand the difference between truth and what ever he makes up.

---

That's freakin hilarious. Water faucets are magic! I should have clarified my question I guess: Do you think there will come a day when you expect your child to tell the truth?

quote:

---

do you think all mammals have a sin nature? because it's the same core motivation in us as it is in them. they have either the same sin nature as we do, or there is no such thing. if you think they also have a sin nature, then i think we can safely end this discussion now.

---

No, animals do not have a sin nature. We do have some of the same motivations for some actions as you described with the mothers milk example; when we are hungry we eat, when we thirst we drink, and we can experience fight or flight responses. However it's morally wrong for us to act on many of our desires whereas animals are not condemned.

quote:

---

because to do other wise would leave them horribly unprepared for life among other people. lying means people never trust what you say. stealing means you don't value others' property and are never allowed near them. murder means you may likely be killed your self because others must stop you before you harm them as well.

---

So you educate against these "sins" out of love so that it produces a positive quality of life for your kids, because sinful actions can result in death or a very difficult live? Wonderful!. My entire argument is that the sins that you described above, are derived from a 'sin' nature and that if left uncheck does not produce life (survival instincts) but results in death and a very poor quality of life.

"That's freakin hilarious. Water faucets are magic! I should have clarified my question I guess: Do you think there will come a day when
you expect your child to tell the truth?"

certainly. but my point was that little children partaking in flights of fancy aren't good examples of lying or a sin nature.

"No, animals do not have a sin nature. We do have some of the same motivations for some actions as you described with
the mothers milk example; when we are hungry we eat, when we thirst we
drink, and we can experience fight or flight responses. However it's
morally wrong for us to act on many of our desires whereas animals are
not condemned. "

my point is that the actions you would say are caused by a sin nature, i would argue are actually manifested as a result of the same drives that we share with our animal kin. (which i listed out a few posts back) we attach "sinister" undertones to these actions because we have a highly developed social system and these actions are potentially very upsetting for that system. an animal can't lie, because they don't have the capability for language. they can practice deceit, however.

"So you educate against these "sins" out of love so that it produces a positive quality of life for your kids, because sinful actions can
result in death or a very difficult live? Wonderful!. My entire
argument is that the sins that you described above, are derived from a
'sin' nature and that if left uncheck does not produce life (survival
instincts) but results in death and a very poor quality of life."

i understand you think it's as a result of a sin nature. i don't think that sin nature exists, and my posts have exaplined that. my motivation is , yes, tied to my children having a successful, high quality of life. i disagree that there is a sin nature that i'm combating. just like there is no sin nature i'm combating when trying to train my dog not to steal food off the table. it's a drive for life that must be directed, not fought as something evil.

quote:

---

i understand you think it's as a result of a sin nature. i don't think that sin nature exists, and my posts have explained that. my motivation is , yes, tied to my children having a successful, high quality of life. i disagree that there is a sin nature that i'm combating. just like there is no sin nature i'm combating when trying to train my dog not to steal food off the table. it's a drive for life that must be directed, not fought as something evil.

---

I hope you can see why this is difficult for me to grasp as you are fighting off actions that the bible calls sinful, that if left unchecked leads to greater acts of sin that would harm your child, but it's not stemming from a sinful nature it's just nature.

We do have some of the same natural drives again as many of the animals so it can be challenging to find examples. Disobedience to parents would be one example of a sin. It's not controlled by a natural urge like hunger. An amoral command can be given to a child from their parents: Do the laundry, do the dishes, be home at 8. A child who disobeys these sins in God's eyes. From our perspective it's not "Evil" like other evils that we know of, but it's still something wrong in the eyes of God. Why are all of the reasons why we disobey? Where to those rebellious drives come from?

A child was once born who never lied, always obeyed His parents, never sinned, never cheated, never was late, always picked up His toys and when He became a man he went around healing people who were broken physically and spiritually and our sins nailed him to a tree.

"I hope you can see why this is difficult for me to grasp as you are fighting off actions that the bible calls sinful, that if left unchecked
leads to greater acts of sin that would harm your child, but it's not
stemming from a sinful nature it's just nature."

it's not that difficult to grasp, imo. things you would call "sin", i would say are just behaviors that have their root in the conduct of all mammals. sure these behaviors can form the basis for a person that is ultimately self-destructive or unfit for society. that's because we have society, not because of a sin nature. that's why you need to instruct and correct your children. they don't have some sort of bad seed in them that you have to fight, it's just a matter of teaching them how to behave in a way that is acceptable within the society. i've yet to see any convincing argument showing children have a sin nature born within them. anything i've seen is explainable as an entity pitching self-determination and self-advancement against the reality that might doesn't equal right in civil society.

"We do have some of the same natural drives again as many of the animals so it can be challenging to find examples. Disobedience to parents
would be one example of a sin. It's not controlled by a natural urge like hunger. An amoral command can be
given to a child from their parents: Do the laundry, do the dishes, be
home at 8. A child who disobeys these sins in God's eyes. From our
perspective it's not "Evil" like other evils that we know of, but it's
still something wrong in the eyes of God. Why are all of the reasons
why we disobey? Where to those rebellious drives come from? "

is disobedience to parents really a mystery? why would self-determination be hard to understand? children want to do what they
want to do just like adults don't like being told what to do. honestly, i
don't want to instill mindless obedience in my children. i want them to
listen to me because there are consequences if they don't and they
understand that, eventually, they'll hopefully see i was right and am acting in their best interest. in the
meantime, they'll hopefully learn the right way to behave and act in
their personal life and with others as a result. once they are old
enough to make smart decisions on their own, i want them to that, not
follow authority for authority's sake.

"A child was once born who never lied, always obeyed His parents, never sinned, never cheated, never was late, always picked up His toys and
when He became a man he went around healing people who were broken
physically and spiritually and our sins nailed him to a tree."

i know that's what you believe. but for those of us that don't accept the myth of jesus as a perfect individual, it's not very convincing as a way to counter the evidence that people are just people. they aren't holding some inner wickedness that must be redeemed. i just don't see it.

quote:

---

quote:

---

God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.

You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.

---

I really don't understand what I'm being unclear about. I'm not talking about god(s). I'm talking about their fan clubs.

---

Fan clubs dont matter, you know the message of God. That he has a right to be arrogant for what he has done for you.

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.

You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.

---

I really don't understand what I'm being unclear about. I'm not talking about god(s). I'm talking about their fan clubs.

---

Fan clubs dont matter, you know the message of God. That he has a right to be arrogant for what he has done for you.

---

So in other words you don't actually care about my point. Ok then.

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

God rightly should be arrogant for the things you said for.

You nailed it. Someone so powerful as to create the universe, yet still care about individuals has a right to be arrogant.

---

I really don't understand what I'm being unclear about. I'm not talking about god(s). I'm talking about their fan clubs.

---

Fan clubs dont matter, you know the message of God. That he has a right to be arrogant for what he has done for you.

---

So in other words you don't actually care about my point. Ok then.

---

Your point shows that God has a right to be arrogant, that the message of Christianity is the greatest message ever told and should be preached to all even if called arrogant, that the message of Christianity isn't of science but of salvation, and that you know what the message is.

You are concerned about the arrogance of the fan club members, well, maybe they are wrong. Look at Job. He had ever reason to be mad at God, yet wasn't. His friends come to him and try to convince him otherwise. God then comes and challenges him to stand before God and demonstrate that he is as powerful as God. Job remains humble and says that he is only a man. God rewards him for that.

Humbleness vs arrogance. Job is rewarded for his humbleness before God.

Sandy you are arguing against a point no one is making. Stassco came to show his ass in this thread and tell everyone how humble christians are vs. how arrogant atheists are. He wasn't talking about the message, he was talking about the messengers themselves. When we decry this nonsense, the correct response isn't to argue believers ought to humble themselves before God, but recognize that a statement like that is itself the height of arrogance.

If God wants to be arrogant, that is his prerogative. The argument in this thread centers on people, not God.