I honestly think it was deliberate misdirection by the writers.TroyMc said:
Think Halbrand flashing blacksmith skills is of any importance?
But I've been wrong, before
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But I've been wrong, before
Cavalry charge looked cool but I didn't get to enjoy it because all I could think was "where are they charging?"
They aren't there on an imminent rescue mission. They don't know the specifics of what's going on with the villagers and the watch tower at all.
They are there on an expedition based on a general understanding that the enemy is at work in the southlands.
Their first steps should have been establishing a home base and doing some recon, then trying to rally the locals behind the returned king.
Add to that the scale is so small. The southlands at this point looks to be a handful of small villages with a few dozen survivors. Having a king of that seems more than a bit grandiose.
And on a somewhat related subject, the more appropriately scaled new chieftainess of the village, gets shot with an arrow and everyone awaits with bated breath to see how the operation goes, while they're all seconds away from certain death? Whew, looks like she's gonna pull thru… just in time to get slaughtered with the rest of us.
And the queen's guard is all there and she gives just Isildur the go-ahead? That was unnecessary pandering. Send a handful of reinforcements to help instead of catering just to him.
I did like the episode, but this is one of those where a little common sense would have really improved the finished product. Easy remedies for all of these pretty obvious issues. A lot of this is so forced when it should be more organic.
Stuff I really liked:
The trap with the tower was a nice twist.
The use of the tunnels was brilliant and offered a much better explanation for a strategy I thought was pretty contrived to this point.
The visuals of the water and the lava were great. Really great.
The attempt to make the Orcs more multi-dimensional and make Adar more sympathetic and contrast to Galadriel worked… possibly a little too well. The Elves really aren't that likable, or even special, at this point across the board except as to fighting skills. We will see if a humbled, wiser, and more admirable Galadriel comes out of this.
Arondir continues to be a really good character.
The overall fighting skills of the Numenoreans was fun to see, although I would have liked to see Elendil doing a little more butt-kicking before having to be rescued.
They aren't there on an imminent rescue mission. They don't know the specifics of what's going on with the villagers and the watch tower at all.
They are there on an expedition based on a general understanding that the enemy is at work in the southlands.
Their first steps should have been establishing a home base and doing some recon, then trying to rally the locals behind the returned king.
Add to that the scale is so small. The southlands at this point looks to be a handful of small villages with a few dozen survivors. Having a king of that seems more than a bit grandiose.
And on a somewhat related subject, the more appropriately scaled new chieftainess of the village, gets shot with an arrow and everyone awaits with bated breath to see how the operation goes, while they're all seconds away from certain death? Whew, looks like she's gonna pull thru… just in time to get slaughtered with the rest of us.
And the queen's guard is all there and she gives just Isildur the go-ahead? That was unnecessary pandering. Send a handful of reinforcements to help instead of catering just to him.
I did like the episode, but this is one of those where a little common sense would have really improved the finished product. Easy remedies for all of these pretty obvious issues. A lot of this is so forced when it should be more organic.
Stuff I really liked:
The trap with the tower was a nice twist.
The use of the tunnels was brilliant and offered a much better explanation for a strategy I thought was pretty contrived to this point.
The visuals of the water and the lava were great. Really great.
The attempt to make the Orcs more multi-dimensional and make Adar more sympathetic and contrast to Galadriel worked… possibly a little too well. The Elves really aren't that likable, or even special, at this point across the board except as to fighting skills. We will see if a humbled, wiser, and more admirable Galadriel comes out of this.
Arondir continues to be a really good character.
The overall fighting skills of the Numenoreans was fun to see, although I would have liked to see Elendil doing a little more butt-kicking before having to be rescued.
I have to say I agree with you about all of that, but I was willing to just enjoy what was happening. Typical Hollywood stuff for the sake of the show.
And yes, please...for the love of Eru Iluvatar, give me more Elendil!
And yes, please...for the love of Eru Iluvatar, give me more Elendil!
so much about him feels like a set up. Very vague on his past. Never really said he was the missing King but all the sudden is like yup. The interaction with orc/elf dude. Feel like we're gonna get some kind of flip/surprise out of him.redline248 said:I honestly think it was deliberate misdirection by the writers.TroyMc said:
Think Halbrand flashing blacksmith skills is of any importance?
But I've been wrong, before
I actually think it's gotta be Halbrand.
1) smithing skills
2) mentions that Adar did something to him, asks "remember me?"
3) Adar claims to have killed Sauron
4) Adar doesn't recognise Halbrand - because he hasn't seen Sauron in this disguise
That's just my theory. I'm 100% sold that it's not Adar. I guess it could be someone we haven't seen yet and Halbrand is a red herring but I think out of the revealed characters Halbrand is by far the likeliest
1) smithing skills
2) mentions that Adar did something to him, asks "remember me?"
3) Adar claims to have killed Sauron
4) Adar doesn't recognise Halbrand - because he hasn't seen Sauron in this disguise
That's just my theory. I'm 100% sold that it's not Adar. I guess it could be someone we haven't seen yet and Halbrand is a red herring but I think out of the revealed characters Halbrand is by far the likeliest
I agree there is compelling evidence. I just wonder if the show means for it to be so compelling to the point of obvious. Obvious to nerds like us, anyway.
As someone who knows nothing of the history of this world, hasn't read the books, etc, if not for this thread I would have absolutely no idea that the filmmakers were potentially trying to pull one over on the audience by making Halbrand or any other character out to ultimately be Sauron. I would have just thought Sauron was some spirit or something in some dark realm, waiting/plotting to come back again.
That said, on paper, I do agree that the Halbrand evidence is compelling.
I kind of thought this would be the case, and strengthens my belief it is all misdirection for those of us who do know the background.
In either case, we have a lot left to learn about Halbrand.
In either case, we have a lot left to learn about Halbrand.
Yeah, that's an interesting way to look at it. Misdirection for the hardcore fans, as opposed to misdirection for the casual watchers. Will be interesting to see how it plays out either way.
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This "misdirection for the hardcore fans" is also happening with the Elves I think. I said this a few pages back but some of the people that seem to know a lot about this world are mad about some things with the Elves, like that they need the mithril to survive, but those things aren't necessarily true, the Elves in the show just think they're true.
The reason people are mad about that is the elves aren't that dumb.bobinator said:
This "misdirection for the hardcore fans" is also happening with the Elves I think. I said this a few pages back but some of the people that seem to know a lot about this world are mad about some things with the Elves, like that they need the mithril to survive, but those things aren't necessarily true, the Elves in the show just think they're true.
Maybe they have reason to think it's true? Are the elves beyond grasping at an idea out of something like desperation?
The elves think their powers (or spirits, or whatever) and their lands are fading b/c of something related to the silmarils or something? Not realizing it's most likely the return/rise of Sauron causing it?
I mean they were dumb enough to help Sauron forge the Rings of Power and not notice he kept going on coffee breaks for 3 days at a time to also forge the One Ring.powerbelly said:The reason people are mad about that is the elves aren't that dumb.bobinator said:
This "misdirection for the hardcore fans" is also happening with the Elves I think. I said this a few pages back but some of the people that seem to know a lot about this world are mad about some things with the Elves, like that they need the mithril to survive, but those things aren't necessarily true, the Elves in the show just think they're true.
The Elves are arrogant. If Sawyer Lite turns out to be Sauron, it's very much on Galadriel for just assuming he's the king of the Southlands based on him carrying around a keychain with a logo on it.
Life is better with a beagle
One of the things that seems to be at odds, for me, is the creation of Mt. Doom. Adar somehow knew that emptying all the water into the mountain would cause an explosion...but he's not Sauron? Did Sauron just come to Mordor later and go..."oh, this will work great for me, thanks you twisted little elf."
The assumption is that Sauron is still pulling the strings even if people are unknowingly doing his will.
As someone who has a passing familiarity with the greater LOTR world but isn't like a hardcore reader who has this stuff memorized, it seems to me what characters actually know what and are they lying or just wrong is the key issue in this show so far.
If Adar really thinks he killed Sauron, then he's using Mt. Doom to create a land for the orcs. His whole "they deserve a land of their own" talk. You could just take that at face value.
If Adar really thinks he killed Sauron, then he's using Mt. Doom to create a land for the orcs. His whole "they deserve a land of their own" talk. You could just take that at face value.
Do we know if Adar is an elf or just the Miss America of orcs? That whole thing confuses me. Like he calls himself an orc, but then he has the same customs as the elves with the seeds.
He is an elf, or I guess was an elf. That interrogation/conversation with Galadriel was a pretty big information dump on his origin and the origin of the orcs.
Definitely Not A Cop said:
Do we know if Adar is an elf or just the Miss America of orcs? That whole thing confuses me. Like he calls himself an orc, but then he has the same customs as the elves with the seeds.
They have gone with the "Morgoth created Orcs by corrupting Elves" version of the origin of Orcs. In that sense Adar is a proto-Orc or one of the true Morgothian Orcs.
Thanks to both of you. That guy needs a pedicure. I never thought someone's nails could make me want to gag, but damn did they get close.
Excuse me, it's Uruk.canadiaggie said:Definitely Not A Cop said:
Do we know if Adar is an elf or just the Miss America of orcs? That whole thing confuses me. Like he calls himself an orc, but then he has the same customs as the elves with the seeds.
They have gone with the "Morgoth created Orcs by corrupting Elves" version of the origin of Orcs. In that sense Adar is a proto-Orc or one of the true Morgothian Orcs.
So you theorize that when Morgoth rose, there were a handful of Elves tempted by him, probably for knowledge more than power (although they stem from the same place) and they became dark elves / the first Orcs. Once Morgoth/Sauron was able to know the Elves enough to somewhat replicate them, they kept their passion and their ferocity in battle, but made them more docile and not quite as smart or long-lived and start making orcs off the production line.
Not dissimilar to Palpatine creating the clone troopers from Jango's DNA to make an army capable of killing Jedi, then changing it to stormtroopers where the armor and the weaposn and the numbers did the job for scaring people, but it was a lot less expensive with regular shmoes in there.
If Sawyer Lite really knows Arda, and Arda has been around since the time of Morgoth, then that would stand to reason that Sawyer Lite is someone pretty long-lived. The Sauron pieces all make sense - not really knowing him because he looks different, the fact that he comes as basically nothing more as a beggar floating on a raft in the middle of the ocean puts him into a timeline that would have been nearly impossible for him to slip into otherwise, and the smith talents. Plus he learns a whole lot about his "enemies" thorugh Galadriel and the Numeanor.
On the other side of that coin, it's not really getting him to the point of being able to seduce the Elves into helping him forge the Ring. If he's going to be new king of the South, he doensn't have time to go galivanting around meeting the Elves and making friends with them. So unless he's able to be more than 1 person at the same time, he definitely feels more like a king who becomes a Nazgul rather than Suaron.
Not dissimilar to Palpatine creating the clone troopers from Jango's DNA to make an army capable of killing Jedi, then changing it to stormtroopers where the armor and the weaposn and the numbers did the job for scaring people, but it was a lot less expensive with regular shmoes in there.
If Sawyer Lite really knows Arda, and Arda has been around since the time of Morgoth, then that would stand to reason that Sawyer Lite is someone pretty long-lived. The Sauron pieces all make sense - not really knowing him because he looks different, the fact that he comes as basically nothing more as a beggar floating on a raft in the middle of the ocean puts him into a timeline that would have been nearly impossible for him to slip into otherwise, and the smith talents. Plus he learns a whole lot about his "enemies" thorugh Galadriel and the Numeanor.
On the other side of that coin, it's not really getting him to the point of being able to seduce the Elves into helping him forge the Ring. If he's going to be new king of the South, he doensn't have time to go galivanting around meeting the Elves and making friends with them. So unless he's able to be more than 1 person at the same time, he definitely feels more like a king who becomes a Nazgul rather than Suaron.
Life is better with a beagle
Going back to when we first meet him, he is also very adamant that he is a horrible being and has done many horrible things.
Maybe he realizes he is evil or evil reincarnated?
Maybe he realizes he is evil or evil reincarnated?
This. I think the black smithing is really compelling piece. Plus the rage he went into when attacked by the Numenoreans. Something is very interesting about him for sure. He could end up being one fo the 9 or he could be a disguised Sauron. Who knows.canadiaggie said:
I actually think it's gotta be Halbrand.
1) smithing skills
2) mentions that Adar did something to him, asks "remember me?"
3) Adar claims to have killed Sauron
4) Adar doesn't recognise Halbrand - because he hasn't seen Sauron in this disguise
That's just my theory. I'm 100% sold that it's not Adar. I guess it could be someone we haven't seen yet and Halbrand is a red herring but I think out of the revealed characters Halbrand is by far the likeliest
He could also just be who he is at face value.
Someone from the South who had been previously attacked and made landless (or even a slave) by the Orcs, and had many loved ones tortured and killed by Adar and the Orcs.
Currently I think all of that makes for good writing, but it will depend how they land whatever route they go. Right noww its all equally viable for Halbrand
Someone from the South who had been previously attacked and made landless (or even a slave) by the Orcs, and had many loved ones tortured and killed by Adar and the Orcs.
Currently I think all of that makes for good writing, but it will depend how they land whatever route they go. Right noww its all equally viable for Halbrand
KCup17 said:This. I think the black smithing is really compelling piece. Plus the rage he went into when attacked by the Numenoreans. Something is very interesting about him for sure. He could end up being one fo the 9 or he could be a disguised Sauron. Who knows.canadiaggie said:
I actually think it's gotta be Halbrand.
1) smithing skills
2) mentions that Adar did something to him, asks "remember me?"
3) Adar claims to have killed Sauron
4) Adar doesn't recognise Halbrand - because he hasn't seen Sauron in this disguise
That's just my theory. I'm 100% sold that it's not Adar. I guess it could be someone we haven't seen yet and Halbrand is a red herring but I think out of the revealed characters Halbrand is by far the likeliest
I wonder if he even knows. They could be setting up what I think the Potter world would call a Horcrux type situation with the rings. Maybe Adar did "kill" Sauron, but maybe it was with Sauron's blessing or according to his plan, so that Sauron could become formless and possess (maybe not to the point of control, but influence) multiple different people to bring about the creation of the rings.
The thing that made me think of this was a comment someone made about what a gigantic task it would be to put a face on one of fiction's greatest villains who has previously only been faceless. You get around that by having Sauron infect/possess multiple people. Another benefit of this is that you can depossess/uninfect those same characters, so that the audience doesn't lose the attachment/investment they've made in those characters.
I could definitely see them going a direction similar to that.
I was typing out a similar thing but couldn't make it make sense.
Basically it boils down to whether or not Sauron would have to know they were Sauron.
Basically it boils down to whether or not Sauron would have to know they were Sauron.
That would be a big retcon on Sauron, which would initiate some posts from me.
That would make me stop watching a show I am enjoying quite a bit. Just a total cop out.
I definitely don't think it can be some kind of (to use the Potter reference) imperious curse situation where suddenly they're just not Sauron anymore.
Sauron didn't have to possess people to get what he wanted. He manipulated, charmed, and otherwise persuaded to get what he wanted. Remember, he is a Maia, and excels at this level of manipulation.
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