*** The Batman (spoiler thread) ***

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BoydCrowder13
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Sex Panther said:

BoydCrowder13 said:

Matt Reeves plays him some Arkham games.



I told my buddy when we were leaving and talking about the influences that it was clear the Arkham games were a big one. The bombs around the city, the bat suit, and especially the faceless goons that he kept hanging from the ceiling… all straight out of the games.


And since those games are just incredible, there really isn't much higher praise.
TCTTS
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AG
As I said in the other thread, that was damn near a religious experience. Just extremely my sh*t in so many ways, and basically the Fincher version of Batman I've always wanted. I don't have a ton of praise to add that hasn't already been said, other than to echo that everything from the story to the cast to the look to the score was all just about as perfect as can be. And somehow even better than I expected.

I seriously wanted to live in every single frame of this movie. I loved this Gotham, more than any other Gotham, and am obsessed with the way it was shot. Like Dune (also shot by the incredible Greg Fraser - what a insane back-to-back), this is going to be another "screensaver" movie for me, in that I'm going to have it on constantly at home, if only to bask in its cinematography and overall vibe. It was legit exhilarating, how good this movie looked and how well it was staged. Combined with the incredible score, I found myself smiling so many times throughout, at just how astonishingly the story/cinematography/music all worked together to give us so many awesome moments, both grand and subtle. I don't even know how to describe it, but it's something I haven't felt from a blockbuster in a long time. Just this perfect synchronicity of everything I love in movies like this, to where I lost count of the number of sequences that made me think, "I'm going to watch this part over and over and over again."

The other thing that really stood out to me, that we haven't necessarily seen to this effect in the other movies, was how Batman was regarded not just by criminals, but by cops/everyday people as well.

He was a f/cking alien to them.

Which was so cool/unnerving to see, and Reeves captured that so damn well. Batman wasn't just a "freak," he was this… thing… this canny, unsettling monster that Gordon had somehow half-tamed and befriended, and people were straight up disturbed by him. I loved that aspect so, so much.

As for any negatives, as few as there were…

- The exposition dumps could have been handled better and, IMO, brought the story to a halt one too many times. Especially Carmine Falcone's whole spiel to Bruce, at 44 Below or wherever, about his history with Thomas Wayne, even though it turned out to only be a half-truth, which I admittedly liked. Still, that didn't make up for the fact that it was yet another stop-and-listen scene. At the very least, give us some visuals to go along with all the info dumps. As Falcone is monologuing, give us brief cuts of what he's talking about - the stuff twenty years ago between him and Thomas Wayne. As Selina's voice mail plays, give us brief cuts of Falcone threatening and choking Selina's roommate(/lover?), instead of nothing but endless reaction shots of characters standing around listening to a voice mail. Just anything to not have so much telling and not showing.

- Along those same lines, while I did like the hard-boiled-detective/noir vibe of Bruce's voice over, his final voice over was way too on-the-nose. Characters should never have to explain the theme, or what they've learned, to the audience. If you've told your story properly, what the character learned should be obvious through their actions alone. One thing the Nolan movies have over this one in that regard is their masterful grasp of theme, and the way it's so seamlessly woven not only into character/plot, but *is* character/plot. Batman Begins is still one of the best blockbusters to ever do that (the way the theme of "fear" is used throughout, in nearly every scene), and the same goes for TDK (with the whole chance/chaos thing). Here, though, after such a beautiful movie in so many ways, it just felt clunky to have Bruce have to explain to us what he learned (that he has to be more than just vengeance, he has to be hope... which, if I'm being completely honest, wasn't *that* insightful or revelatory, though I get that it's a necessary first step).

- Re: the Joker, I'm in agreement with veryfuller, AgfromHOU, and Sex Panther. In fact, yeah, I actually hated that entire scene. It was the only thing in the movie I had an outright negative reaction to. It just felt so forced, and weirdly had the opposite of the intended effect on me, in that it didn't at all leave me wanting more. Part of the fun of the The Dark Knight was the gap between it and Batman Begins, and wondering how the Joker was going to be portrayed, who was going to play him, etc. I remember at one point there were even rumors that his backstory was going to have him be from Texas, and all that speculation was so fun. But here? As brief as the scene was, we still somehow got *too much* of a taste, and I honestly didn't particularly even like what little we heard/saw. Granted, Keoghan could eventually blow us away - I'll of course reserve judgement - but in the moment it just felt like something out of that Gotham series on Fox. It was so out of place, I honestly couldn't believe it was happening. That, and Keoghan is such a random actor that the whole thing now feels anti-climactic, almost like an afterthought. Instead, heading into sequel, I wanted to hear the stories about how Reeves auditioned a dozen actors for the role, after carefully considering this iteration of the character, etc. Otherwise, as-is, this Joker just feels so rushed and slapped together, all for a cheap tease. Besides, Nolan's Joker tease in Batman Begins was so damn perfect, and wasn't going to be topped, so why even try? In fact, I'm with Sex Panther here as well… why even have Joker in the sequel at all, and set up even more Nolan/Ledger comparisons? Save him for the third movie, as this version of Batman and this version of Gotham have so much damn potential, I'd take just about any other villain for the sequel.

All that said, again, I still loved 99% of the movie. So much so that I just bought another ticket to see it this Saturday, and I can't wait. Will be interesting to see how it all plays a second time.
TCTTS
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AG
AgfromHOU said:

After having time to think about it, here are my gripes:

1) The ending felt super quick. Riddler's goons had just shown up and there were only 20 minutes left in the movie.

2) I watched too many trailers and tv spots

3) In a perfect world this would have come out last October

I know 2 and 3 weren't the movie's fault.

It really would have been so perfect. At the very least, this is my new go-to Halloween movie every year. Heck, that's actually one of my favorite weeks of the entire year. It's Halloween, college football and NFL are in full effect, the NBA is getting started, the World Series often falls right around then as well, and every other year there's of course election insanity that Tuesday. To top it all off, my birthday is November 6th, and this movie literally ends on November 6th (as noted in Bruce's voice over). Just another little reason I liked it so much. It's weirdly *about* my favorite week of the year, when it feels like *everything* is happening, and now I can add Batman to that list.
AgfromHOU
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In the comics, there was a massive earthquake that cut Gotham off from the rest of America and it became unincorporated land. Most people left except for the villains, thugs, poor people, Batman, and some of the police force. Batman and the cops retake the city over time, and then they get reincorporated back into America. I figure that's the route they're going because of them mentioning parts of Gotham cut off from the national guard and Bruce expecting crime to take place in those areas.

There's actually a great novel of the same name that tells the story in prose form.
AgfromHOU
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After thinking on it, I'm really hoping that Joker is just a tease in the second movie as well, and then becomes the main villain in the third movie
AgfromHOU
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I get the gripe about the telling and not showing, but I thought it worked here because so much of the movie is from Bruce's point of view. I'm pretty sure there weren't any flashbacks in the whole movie, and stayed in the present the whole time. I don't think flashbacks would have fit. I'm generally not a fan of voiceovers (really hated it in Aquaman), but I thought it worked here for the story they were going for.

Some of the exposition dumps, like the Falcone scene you mentioned, definitely could have been shorter but I took it as Reeves giving the actors a chance to shine.

Just my opinion on your (highly valid) criticism of that aspect of the movie.
Brian Earl Spilner
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AG
Weird, the voice-over was one of the things I loved about the movie. It's so perfect for this type of detective story.

Also the final voice-over reminded me of Gordon's final monologue in TDK. Hell, they both ended on shots of Batman on his motorcycle. Wonder if that was intentional.
TCTTS
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I really liked the opening voice over, especially because it had an actual purpose (writing everything down so as to remember every detail), as opposed to being random and a crutch. In agreement that it totally fit the vibe/movie. It's just that part of the final voice over I didn't like, in an after-school special, "Here's the moral of the story I learned" kind of way. It was just bad writing.

Instead, put Batman in a position to SHOW us, through ACTION, that he's learned that lesson. Force him to have to make a choice - an action that would solidify the path of vengeance - or - an action that would undoubtedly give people hope. As-is, it was like 75% there. In his rage, Batman was about to straight up pulverize/probably murder that Riddler clone in the rafters before Gordon pulled him away. That was vengeance rearing it's ugly ahead again. But then, Batman literally decides to be a beacon of hope/light (with the flare), descends into the water, and leads the mayor-elect & co through the flood. That was awesome, and speaks to the action I'm talking about, but with a bit more dilemma/choice between "vengeance" and "hope," it would have been perfect and wouldn't have required voice over to hit the audience over the head with what he did/learned.

IMO, Gordon's VO in TDK was more eloquent, in the moment, and was literally explaining to his kid, talking about another character and not himself. That, and we already understood the choice Batman had made (to take the fall), through action. Gordon's VO there was just the cherry on top to basically give us the title of the movie as it cut to black.
TCTTS
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AgfromHOU said:

I get the gripe about the telling and not showing, but I thought it worked here because so much of the movie is from Bruce's point of view. I'm pretty sure there weren't any flashbacks in the whole movie, and stayed in the present the whole time. I don't think flashbacks would have fit. I'm generally not a fan of voiceovers (really hated it in Aquaman), but I thought it worked here for the story they were going for.

Some of the exposition dumps, like the Falcone scene you mentioned, definitely could have been shorter but I took it as Reeves giving the actors a chance to shine.

Just my opinion on your (highly valid) criticism of that aspect of the movie.


Sorry, I didn't mean actual flashbacks. I was saying "flashes," like what Nolan does in a lot of his movies, where it's just like a few quick shots, no sound/dialogue from them, save for in the present, where it's almost like we're seeing, for a brief moment, what the character is remembering. So I'm meant like four or five "silent" shots of Falcone talking to Thomas Wayne in the past as Falcone in the present is telling the story. Or a quick shot or two of Falcone killing that girl as we hear the voicemail. Nothing that interrupts the dialogue in the present, just something that adds a bit more "show" to all the telling, if that makes sense.
wangus12
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Sex Panther said:

BoydCrowder13 said:

Matt Reeves plays him some Arkham games.



I told my buddy when we were leaving and talking about the influences that it was clear the Arkham games were a big one. The bombs around the city, the bat suit, and especially the faceless goons that he kept hanging from the ceiling… all straight out of the games.


Not to mention that from what I could tell, the Joker design looks close to Arkham as well.

I will say also put me in the camp of the Joker scene being totally unnecessary. Just felt out of place.
Brian Earl Spilner
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AG
Will be listening to Giacchino's score today while I work.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Interesting, seems to be negative reactions across the board for that Joker scene. At this point I'm convinced it was a studio decision, like mentioned earlier.

I'm just crossing my fingers that we get Mr. Freeze for the sequel. I loved that they kicked it off with two villains that weren't in Nolan's trilogy, so I kinda hope that continues.

Also, is there any doubt whatsoever that Batman has the best rogues gallery in all of comics?
MrPlow2010
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I laughed when Batman told Gordon no guns at the abandoned orphanage and he was like "Dude, that's your thing"

The acting was great in this movie. I loved how every shot looked. I loved that the camera basically didnt move and we could see all the fighting.

Colin Farrell was great as the penguin and I enjoyed his penguin waddle.
MrPlow2010
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AG
<?> (rataalada.com)


the-batman-movie-spoilers-riddler-easter-egg
Brian Earl Spilner
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Here's something I know TC will love -- currently listening to a track on the score called...

Highway to the Anger Zone
AgfromHOU
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AG
That's the car chase scene
BoydCrowder13
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Interesting, seems to be negative reactions across the board for that Joker scene. At this point I'm convinced it was a studio decision, like mentioned earlier.

I'm just crossing my fingers that we get Mr. Freeze for the sequel. I loved that they kicked it off with two villains that weren't in Nolan's trilogy, so I kinda hope that continues.

Also, is there any doubt whatsoever that Batman has the best rogues gallery in all of comics?


No doubt. Spider-Man has a pretty good one but Batman's is incredible.

We've done Bane, Scarecrow, Riddler, Penguin and Catwoman now recently and well. The whole last trilogy was Ra's Al Ghul related.

Other options for the future:

Deathstroke
Mr Freeze
Hugo Strange - this would be great. Have the whole movie take place in Arkham.
Two Face - only really got 10 min of Two face in TDK
Red Hood - would have to do Robin's first
Hush
Court of Owls
Mad Hatter

nickstro66
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AG
I really want the sequel to have a properly done Deathstroke. Fight scenes between Deathstroke and Batman in this universe would be amazing.

They redeemed the Riddler from the last time we saw him on screen, it would be nice to see them do the same with Mr. Freeze too.
wangus12
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AG
Are you suggesting there was a problem with the Arnie Ice Man!
BoydCrowder13
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I will say the "white privileged *******s" line pulled me out of the movie. People don't talk like that. It will date the movie eventually.

Very small gripe but it earned an eye roll at Hollywood. Kind of funny.
nickstro66
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AG
Chill out
Brian Earl Spilner
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nickstro66 said:

Chill out
, dick wad.
AgfromHOU
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The people she was referring to were indeed white, and did indeed have privilege, and were indeed *******s, so…..
BoydCrowder13
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AgfromHOU said:

The people she was referring to were indeed white, and did indeed have privilege, and were indeed *******s, so…..


They were indeed all those things. But people don't talk like that.

Didn't hurt my opinion of the movie. Just bad dialogue in that moment.
wangus12
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MrPlow2010 said:

<?> (rataalada.com)


the-batman-movie-spoilers-riddler-easter-egg
Had this pop up from the site

AgfromHOU
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You think I'm finished but perhaps you don't know the full truth. Every ending is a new beginning. Something is coming.
AgfromHOU
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MrPlow2010
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yea I had the same thing pop up a few minutes ago when I checked. Earlier when I posted the link it would load up like it was the Riddler typing like in the movie and it asked 3 riddles. It must have changed in the past few hours.
Sex Panther
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Ok I'm gonna get deep into Batman lore on this one... but wanted to talk about some of the influences and where I thought the movie was going with a fakeout.

The Long Halloween - This was the obvious one, and it was awesome. I've said time and time again that this is my favorite Batman comic and why I wanted to see a Seven style Batman movie that focused more on solving a mystery and murders, which is exactly what we got. The opening of the movie with Pattinson's narration (ala Rohrshach) was phenomenal for setting the tone and made me feel like we were jumping straight into The Long Halloween in a cinematic setting. Plus the first murder and investigation happening on Halloween... all just great.

Also one of the big reveals in Long Halloween is that Selina Kyle is Carmine Falcone's daughter. I think most people saw this coming a mile away from the trailers, but still cool.

The Arkham Games - As mentioned before, some of the plot points, the Riddler's clues, the design of the Batsuit (and Gotham), and the fighting (gangs, Riddler followers) were straight from the Arkhamverse. As much amazing IP as Batman has had over the years, especially the Animated Series and the Nolan trilogy... I legitimately believe that this video game series is the best overall story and iteration of Batman there is. They are incredible with two (Asylum and City) being masterpieces, and it was awesome to see their influence.



Hush - ***Spoiler Alert in case you've never read Hush or don't know anything about him...***


Halfway through the movie when Batman and the police are investigating Riddler's lair. I was convinced the movie was going to do a pretty big fakeout/switch. They are piecing together the Gotham Renewal plan and the Riddler's actual identity and background (a forgotten orphan). They focus on a reporter who was on the right path of uncovering the corruption and ended up murdered. His name was - Edward Elliot... The character Hush's real name is... Thomas Elliot.

In the comic, Tommy Elliot is a childhood friend of Bruce Wayne's who just like Bruce - experiences his parents dying at a young age. Back to The Batman - immediately after they show Edward Elliot, they zoom in on a cryptic Riddler message that says in huge letters "HUSH"... which was clearly intentional. They then go on to show the picture of young Riddler looking at young Bruce with a pretty sinister, jealous inference. In the comics Tommy Elliot, despite being a long-time friend of Bruce... secretly hated him.

So in that scene, it seemed like they were setting up basically the same (or a similar) backstory of Tommy Elliot aka Hush. There's also the fact that Riddler has never worn a mask... but Hush does.

To take it even further... in the animated movie of Hush that came out a year or two ago... they did a pretty huge switch, and it turned out Hush was actually the Riddler and Tommy Elliot turned out to be Bruce's friend the entire time. This was a pretty massive switch which I didn't quite love, but at least it was unexpected. So there was even more precedent for the Riddler-Hush connection which I thought was happening.



Anyways, just some long, nerdy thoughts on my favorite character and the inspiration for this movie.
AgfromHOU
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AG
You also need Batman Earth One. In that, Martha is an Arkham and was in and out of the psychiatric hospital after her mom killed her dad (just like the movie).

Also the "I'm Vengeance" line
AgfromHOU
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Also Hush could have just been for "hush money" for the reporter he got killed
Sex Panther
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Nice, I have Earth One and remember I really, really liked it, but I don't really remember the story. I'll read it again.
AgfromHOU
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It has three parts now, and was a really fun read.
Sex Panther
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AgfromHOU said:

Also Hush could have just been for "hush money" for the reporter he got killed

I get that and that's what it meant. But also if you use the word Hush in the world of Batman, and have a big visual focus on it like that... it's definitely intentional to make you think of the character. Like the Court of Owls he's become pretty popular in the last decade

Edit - Add in, I thought they were going to tell us that Edward Elliot (the murdered reporter) was actually Riddler's father, hence why he was an orphan
Max Power
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I really enjoyed it. This was Batman crossed with Se7en, Zodiak, and Blade Runner. It doesn't top The Dark Knight for me because of Ledger's Joker, but I liked it better than Batman Begins and The Dark Knight Rises.

Negatives:
-Exposition when not necessary, and sometimes makes no sense.
-Not enough background on The Riddler. I don't need the whole thing but they could have carved out some more time to explain a few more points for him and his arc.
-I don't want to go on a plot diatribe but the Wayne family history that Bruce didn't know about was poorly done IMO, same with Celina Kyle's backstory. For a movie this long those could have been better written or shorten the movie and leave it out completely.
-Turturo felt like he was playing Knish from Rounders, just way darker.

Pros:
-Pattinson killed it, kudos to Matt Reeves for casting him.
-The rest of the cast was great.
-The music really set the mood, loved it.
-Not an origin story, thank goodness, they just let it rip.
-Gotham was dark and grimy, fit the Pattinson portrayal of Batman.
-If Matt Reeves is back for part 2, take my money now.
 
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