AustinAg2K said:

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redline248 said:

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Sex Panther said:

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Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.

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Been a while, but my recollection is that he is way more mysterious (because he was introduced late and has limited page-time, so far). He's been all over the place, cuts the tongues out of his crew b/c he's paranoid, I guess. He collects a lot of relics and "magical" items. Instead of siding with Cersei he instead raids some of the smaller cities on the western coast. He wins the Iron Islands over Yara b/c he has a horn that supposedly can bring dragons under the control of whoever uses it.

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It's been a while since I've read the books, but doesn't he also set sail to go win over Dany not Cersei?

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bobinator said:

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Well it fades back in and we get 78 minutes of Bran, Arya, Sansa and Jon deciding who's going to rule what, laying out a sensible tax plan and prioritizing infrastructure improvements.

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jenn96 said:

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I noticed that once Dani decided to Smaug out they never showed her face. She could have been laughing, crying, steely resolve, screaming madness - but they didn't show it. I wonder if that was a conscious decision to maintain ambiguity or if they just kind of forgot to show Emilia.

And I feel compelled to give the old dead horse a kick by pointing out that 3 seasons ago I wouldn't have questioned it, I would have assumed there was a good reason not to show her face. Now I'm honestly assuming they didn't care.

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jenn96 said:

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Maybe because I'm a mom, but Cersei dying terrified and bereft, all of her children dead, knowing that her baby and the only man she ever loved were all going to die was very fitting to me. A big dramatic Plot Point death is what we all wanted and expected, but instead she dies broken and scared. I was okay with it.

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Phrasing said:

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I got lost in all the Dany's turn discussion and wasn't paying attention to Cersei - what were everyone's thoughts on Cersei's death? I was pissed at first that she didn't go out in a blaze of glory or that she wasn't killed by the valanqar, but the more I think about it (and from reading others opinions) I think I am pretty good with it actually.

Her last words (while crying and upset) were something along the lines of:

"I don't want our baby to die"
"I don't want to die"
"Not like this"
"Please don't let me die"

She was truly broken and alone - the last place in the world she wanted to be. This was the worst way she could have gone out in her mind. She was truly afraid. She knew she had lost and that Dany had beaten her at her own game. Qyburn was dead. The Mountain deserted her. Euron was gone. All her scorpions had failed. And Dany had called her bluff on killing innocents and was burning down her home. She knew she was dying and that her child was going to die. She had no one, until Jamie came to try and save her, and even he couldn't. And to top it off, he had already been dealt a fatal blow by the very man she replaced him with.

Her whole world (figuratively the "Red Keep" and everything she had built) was literally crumbling down on top of her, to the point where she died a slow and painful death (in my mind at least) underneath a pile of rubble from the tower she spent her life fighting for. (And somewhat as a result of her and Jamie pushing Bran out of a tower in 01:01).

I don't feel like the last scene really humanized her or tried to sway sympathy for her character at all. It just showed her at her lowest point. All characters have human nature in them, and it's okay to feel sorry for her, even after everything she did. She's human after all. No one in this show is either all good or all bad - it is all about shades of gray.

Now Jamie - I have a harder time figuring out, but that's another discussion.......

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Phrasing said:

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jenn96 said:

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Maybe because I'm a mom, but Cersei dying terrified and bereft, all of her children dead, knowing that her baby and the only man she ever loved were all going to die was very fitting to me. A big dramatic Plot Point death is what we all wanted and expected, but instead she dies broken and scared. I was okay with it.

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I want my 10 minutes back from writing my post. You explained it 10X better with 1/10th of the words.

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bobinator said:

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But the Japanese didn't surrender and THEN we dropped the bomb on them.

It just seems like a huge jump for her character to decide in the course of about five seconds that she needs to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. That's why it would have been more believable to set up that she was almost hoping they wouldn't surrender with an earlier conversation.

And the 'it was rushed' thing is only a bad excuse. They had PLENTY of time to squeeze in a conversation with Grey Worm or even in that war council for her to make a comment that the people aren't going to surrender.

It's just hard to excuse the things they do spend a lot of time on, and what they don't. Like everything that happened this episode with Arya could have been just as (if not more) effective in about half the time.

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jenn96 said:

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Maybe because I'm a mom, but Cersei dying terrified and bereft, all of her children dead, knowing that her baby and the only man she ever loved were all going to die was very fitting to me. A big dramatic Plot Point death is what we all wanted and expected, but instead she dies broken and scared. I was okay with it.

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AustinAg2K said:

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bobinator said:

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OI disagree here. I think this was always the idea, which is why it's so tragic. Dany sets out to free the world from oppression, and through a series of decisions and small steps, each of them perfectly logical in the moment, she becomes exactly what she set out to defeat.

She places good people around her to provide honest feedback, creating a council that isn't just full of 'yes-men.' And they fail her.

She tries as hard as possible not to become what she set out to defeat, but she does anyway. She can't avoid it. That's more or less the message of this whole show. You can't overcome evil with kind words and deeds. You make compromises along the way until, without realizing it, you've become no better than those you plan to unseat.

It's a beautifully tragic story, and it's been told perfectly until (for some of us) right at the very end.

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What was the logic of burning civilians after she won? There is no logic to it. If the writers had done something to put the civilians between Dany and the throne it would make sense. If the civilians had attacked her, it would have made sense. As the show wrote it, she had won the throne without harming civilians. Her advisers didn't fail her. She makes a conscious choice on her own to turn evil for no reason. I think GRRM will make her character arc be a tragic story, but will do it in a different way. One that is "bitter sweet." Something where she has to make a choice. If she wants to throne, she has to kill civilians/burn the city. The way the show did it, there is nothing bitter sweet about her character. She is just evil now.

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cbr said:

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bobinator said:

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It's just hard to excuse the things they do spend a lot of time on, and what they don't. Like everything that happened this episode with Arya could have been just as (if not more) effective in about half the time.

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Hello, the rest of japan surrendered because we burned their cities. Exact analogy to danarys. The rest of the west will surrender because she burned kl.

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cbr said:

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AustinAg2K said:

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bobinator said:

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OI disagree here. I think this was always the idea, which is why it's so tragic. Dany sets out to free the world from oppression, and through a series of decisions and small steps, each of them perfectly logical in the moment, she becomes exactly what she set out to defeat.

She places good people around her to provide honest feedback, creating a council that isn't just full of 'yes-men.' And they fail her.

She tries as hard as possible not to become what she set out to defeat, but she does anyway. She can't avoid it. That's more or less the message of this whole show. You can't overcome evil with kind words and deeds. You make compromises along the way until, without realizing it, you've become no better than those you plan to unseat.

It's a beautifully tragic story, and it's been told perfectly until (for some of us) right at the very end.

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What was the logic of burning civilians after she won? There is no logic to it. If the writers had done something to put the civilians between Dany and the throne it would make sense. If the civilians had attacked her, it would have made sense. As the show wrote it, she had won the throne without harming civilians. Her advisers didn't fail her. She makes a conscious choice on her own to turn evil for no reason. I think GRRM will make her character arc be a tragic story, but will do it in a different way. One that is "bitter sweet." Something where she has to make a choice. If she wants to throne, she has to kill civilians/burn the city. The way the show did it, there is nothing bitter sweet about her character. She is just evil now.

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Not only was it totally 100% logical, but it was her ONLY chance to live.

She knew it '
Varys knew it
Lady tyrell knew it
Sansa and arya knew it
Cersi knew it.
Everything they all did was in clear recognition of that.

It was foreshadowed 1000 times.

It wasnt evil, anymore than any other character in the show. It was just the rules of the game.

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bobinator said:

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It seems like everyone else is basically at a place where we can all at least agree that no matter what the writers were going for there, it could have been either set up or played out a little better.

And I've even agreed with you that your scenario makes sense if they would have set that up, but even the writers themselves said that's not what happened. So it seems kind of weird that you're still defending an idea that even the people that make the show said isn't the case.

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