****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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smokeythebear
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BarryProfit said:

FIDO95 said:

One idea I haven't seen discussed much (admittedly I cannot keep up with every post on this thread), was that she thought the bells were a trap, a fake surrender to get her off Drogon.

Before the battle, Tyrion asks her to stand down at the sound of the bells. She then tells him that Jamie is captured and that he will be executed if he betrays her.

He then betrays her by releasing Jamie. You have to believe that that kind of information would get back to her quickly. That then causes her to believe the bells is another part of her betrayal as she seems to loose it when the bells sound.

I thought it curious that Grey Worm sized up Jon when things started to go south. He looked back at him as if to see what Jons response was. Grey Worm looked ready to fight him if he and the Northern soldiers started attacking unsullied. He turns away only after seeing Jon fighting against KL defenders.

So if Dany and Grey Worm has concerns about treason and the bells ring, Dany believes the betrayal of love has occurred at goes mad queen. No way for her to know Jon still fighting for her on the streets.


I thought the same thing re: the bells. If you want closely you also saw Cersi smile/relax once the bell ringing started, it was definitely her intention to use that "mercy" to her advantage.
This is a fantastic point and one that I may be able to come to terms with. Cersei DOES think of Dany's mercy as a weakness and even though she underestimated Drogon's power, she ultimately WOULD have escaped because of Dany's mercy once the bells rang.

Follow me here, Tyrion PUSHED the bells idea and then hatched this treasonous plan to free Jaime so he could go and help cersei escape. Tyrion, Davos, and Jaime all betrayed Dany while she was singlehandedly "saving" the city. If Dany showed mercy, like Cersei expected, and everyone else expected, then they would have been successful and Cersei would have escaped. When the bells rang, she remembered Tyrion's advice and choose to ignore his advice because he's been wrong every single time when it comes to Cersei.

Still not clear why she didn't just go straight to the red keep, but I'll chalk that up to "dramatic effect". She didn't know what schemings was happening on the ground so she just destroyed everything to make sure there was absolutely no way Cersei survived.

TLDR: it is true that Cersei would have escaped if she didn't go Mad Queen. She finally learned her lesson to not trust Tyrion's advice.
bobinator
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Yeah, this is one of the several ideas that almost makes sense, but if she torched the whole city to make sure Cersei died it would have been better for her to go attack the keep and not find Cersei there first.

It's also kind of a stretch to say that Cersei would have been able to escape. It's entirely within Dany's ability to make sure nobody leaves the city, especially by boat.
AustinAg2K
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Honestly, I don't think the writers even know why they turned Dany. I'm not even sure GRRM knows why yet. I think he does want to present her as making a tragic turn, and probably told the writers that. He didn't given them the reason, though, because he doesn't know. He still hasn't finished the six book. In his mind, he's probably got 20 more years to figure out something that makes sense. The writers just knew it had to happen. I doubt we get an explanation in the last episode, because they can't explain it.
Texaggie7nine
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So why not make a beeline for the Red Keep and burn it with Cersei in it before she escapes?
AustinAg2K
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For the last episode, I am just hoping we see a lot more boobs. I've noticed a strong correlation between the poor writing and a lack of boobs this season.
Body By Fisher
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Texaggie7nine said:

So why not make a beeline for the Red Keep and burn it with Cersei in it before she escapes?
That would have made sense.
chilidogfood
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AustinAg2K said:

For the last episode, I am just hoping we see a lot more boobs. I've noticed a strong correlation between the poor writing and a lack of boobs this season.
Here
bobinator
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I disagree here. I think this was always the idea, which is why it's so tragic. Dany sets out to free the world from oppression, and through a series of decisions and small steps, each of them perfectly logical in the moment, she becomes exactly what she set out to defeat.

She places good people around her to provide honest feedback, creating a council that isn't just full of 'yes-men.' And they fail her.

She tries as hard as possible not to become what she set out to defeat, but she does anyway. She can't avoid it. That's more or less the message of this whole show. You can't overcome evil with kind words and deeds. You make compromises along the way until, without realizing it, you've become no better than those you plan to unseat.

It's a beautifully tragic story, and it's been told perfectly until (for some of us) right at the very end.
CapCityAg89
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bobinator said:

I think the issue there is that there are a lot of steps between 'shock and awe' and 'kill everyone here.'

I think a better way to pull that off would have either been to set up that she's not even considering the possibility that they'll actually surrender (thus setting up her decision to ignore the bells when they do) OR, for her to go get the iron throne first.

She flies to the keep, finds it deserted, walks the steps to the iron throne and sits on it, and then looking around realizes that the throne itself is meaningless. She's alone, and everyone out there is plotting against her. She doesn't really have any power except fear. She goes to a window where she can look out over the city and sees Stark banners, Lannister banners, etc... and then that's the moment she decides the only way she's going to be safe is to make an example of the whole city.

To me that realization that the thing she's obsessed with, the throne, isn't actually the thing she's obsessed with at all could have been pretty powerful.
I just think they let that play out on her face rather than in taking those steps. She clearly goes through all of those thoughts before deciding to take the actions she did. I don't think she's mad - angry OR insane. I think she's being Dothraki and making sure everyone knows she is the power. Truman didn't HAVE to drop an A-bomb on Hiroshima and kill 200,000 civilians, but he knew he was saving lives from a traditional invasion of Japan. He wasn't evil - he was pragmatic and made a very difficult decision.

I'm not saying Dany used that rationale specifically, but she did talk about ending the wars by giving the people a true Queen. She did know about the peace in Westeros after Aegon's conquest. She knew she wouldn't be loved, so what she had to have was fear (same as Aegon). As I said, I think in the end, she felt it was the only option. I think she was torn and didn't like it, but she didn't see any other way.
smokeythebear
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Texaggie7nine said:

So why not make a beeline for the Red Keep and burn it with Cersei in it before she escapes?
Right. I mean, that's still clearly my next bit of criticism, but I'm not going to attempt and talk the Directors' way out of that one for them, they clearly made her strafe bomb the city first in order to make time for Cersei to see the bells not working and try to escape, set up Clegane Bowl, and find Jaime, etc. Still horrible writing, but since Dany did eventually get to kill Cersei, I'm fine rolling my eyes at that as a cinematic detail rather than character development failure.

But the point remains that Tyrion advised her to show mercy when the bells rang and she realized in that moment that Tyrion has (intentionally or unintentionally) been betraying her the whole time when it comes to his advice about Cersei because he's ALWAYS been wrong. She was right in this instance as well to not trust Tyrion. And that's the only way she actually killed Cersei.
Lester Freamon
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Torching the entirety of KL versus the Red Keep achieves a bit more than "dramatic effect"
bobinator
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But the Japanese didn't surrender and THEN we dropped the bomb on them.

It just seems like a huge jump for her character to decide in the course of about five seconds that she needs to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. That's why it would have been more believable to set up that she was almost hoping they wouldn't surrender with an earlier conversation.

And the 'it was rushed' thing is only a bad excuse. They had PLENTY of time to squeeze in a conversation with Grey Worm or even in that war council for her to make a comment that the people aren't going to surrender.

It's just hard to excuse the things they do spend a lot of time on, and what they don't. Like everything that happened this episode with Arya could have been just as (if not more) effective in about half the time.
Lester Freamon
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If that was the intent - to let them play out on her face - they need someone with more ability than Emilia Clarke. She's got about two different go to emotions on screen.
bobinator
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By the way, as a side note, I got an ad on reddit last week (on r/all) that said "Your city just burned down by a 'mad queen'?" and I didn't really read the rest, but now I'm super pissed about that because that was a spoiler for the last episode.

Like, I was about 95% sure that's where it was going, but that's still pretty annoying. I tried to find the ad again but couldn't.
bobinator
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Another thing I did like is that Euron died thinking he'd killed Jamie Lannister, but he didn't even actually do that since Jamie died from the collapse before his wounds killed him. I kind of liked that bit.
smokeythebear
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bobinator said:

I disagree here. I think this was always the idea, which is why it's so tragic. Dany sets out to free the world from oppression, and through a series of decisions and small steps, each of them perfectly logical in the moment, she becomes exactly what she set out to defeat.

She places good people around her to provide honest feedback, creating a council that isn't just full of 'yes-men.' And they fail her.

She tries as hard as possible not to become what she set out to defeat, but she does anyway. She can't avoid it. That's more or less the message of this whole show. You can't overcome evil with kind words and deeds. You make compromises along the way until, without realizing it, you've become no better than those you plan to unseat.

It's a beautifully tragic story, and it's been told perfectly until (for some of us) right at the very end.
Eh, I hear you, but my personal take on that idea is that Dany was always destined to be the bat to the beehive. I think it's less about her becoming the evil she sought to destroy and more about her being the tool by which the evil would be demolished.

All throughout her life, whenever people told her "this is how things are supposed to be" she said "**** that" and smashed it to pieces. Dothraki raping women, Qarth (speaking of, where is Quaith?), Astapor (buying an army), Yunkai, Mereen (slavery), Vies Dothrak (tradition). I'm not sure her story, the one DRRM sought to write, ever had any concern about what "ruling" or "succession plan" would look like because she wasn't created to sit on the throne, just to destroy whatever mechanism is in charge of giving power to the throne.

It's probably mentioned 300 times throughout the last 8 seasons how ****ty King's Landing is and how it's the center of corruption for the world. That's debatable, considering some of the slave cities we saw in Essos, but the point remains that the city itself is what gives legitimacy to a single ruler and Dany's entire story culminates in her breaking the wheel by breaking the city and the corruption that goes with it.

At least that's my take on that particular viewpoint. It's not all that different from what you said, but less tragedy and more prophetic.
aggie-beta
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bobinator said:

Phrasing said:

So how did Jon, Grey Worm, Arya, Tyrion, the rest of the Unsullied, the Dothraki and any one else that was in/near the streets of Kings Landing survive? In the previews it looked like she still has a good chunk of her army with her, but not sure how anyone survived all that? Especially people that were fighting in the streets. Maybe she knew where they were and purposely avoided them?


Based on the Battle of Winterfell the Dothraki appear to have the ability to respawn, so I'm not too worried about them.

POTD
SpreadsheetAg
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smokeythebear said:

BarryProfit said:

FIDO95 said:

One idea I haven't seen discussed much (admittedly I cannot keep up with every post on this thread), was that she thought the bells were a trap, a fake surrender to get her off Drogon.

Before the battle, Tyrion asks her to stand down at the sound of the bells. She then tells him that Jamie is captured and that he will be executed if he betrays her.

He then betrays her by releasing Jamie. You have to believe that that kind of information would get back to her quickly. That then causes her to believe the bells is another part of her betrayal as she seems to loose it when the bells sound.

I thought it curious that Grey Worm sized up Jon when things started to go south. He looked back at him as if to see what Jons response was. Grey Worm looked ready to fight him if he and the Northern soldiers started attacking unsullied. He turns away only after seeing Jon fighting against KL defenders.

So if Dany and Grey Worm has concerns about treason and the bells ring, Dany believes the betrayal of love has occurred at goes mad queen. No way for her to know Jon still fighting for her on the streets.


I thought the same thing re: the bells. If you want closely you also saw Cersi smile/relax once the bell ringing started, it was definitely her intention to use that "mercy" to her advantage.
This is a fantastic point and one that I may be able to come to terms with. Cersei DOES think of Dany's mercy as a weakness and even though she underestimated Drogon's power, she ultimately WOULD have escaped because of Dany's mercy once the bells rang.

Follow me here, Tyrion PUSHED the bells idea and then hatched this treasonous plan to free Jaime so he could go and help cersei escape. Tyrion, Davos, and Jaime all betrayed Dany while she was singlehandedly "saving" the city. If Dany showed mercy, like Cersei expected, and everyone else expected, then they would have been successful and Cersei would have escaped. When the bells rang, she remembered Tyrion's advice and choose to ignore his advice because he's been wrong every single time when it comes to Cersei.

Still not clear why she didn't just go straight to the red keep, but I'll chalk that up to "dramatic effect". She didn't know what schemings was happening on the ground so she just destroyed everything to make sure there was absolutely no way Cersei survived.

TLDR: it is true that Cersei would have escaped if she didn't go Mad Queen. She finally learned her lesson to not trust Tyrion's advice.

Rewatch this scene


Tyrion: The people who live there, they're not your enemies. They're innocents like the ones you liberated in Mereen.

Dany: In Mereen, the slaves turned on The Masters and liberated the city themselves the moment I arrived.

Tyrion: They're afraid. Anyone who resists Cersei will see his family butchered. You canont expect them to be heroes, theyre hostages.

Dany: They are. In a tyrants grip, whose fault is that? Mine...

Tyrion: What does it matter whose fault it is? Thousands of children will die if the city burns.

Dany: <sternly> You're sister knows how to use her enemies weaknesses against them. That's what she thinks our mercy is: Weakness.

Tyrion: I beg you my que-

Dany: -but shes wrong... Mercy is our strength. Our mercy towards future generations, who will never again be held hostage by a tyrant ... <long pause, then to Grey Worm> ... Ready the unsullied. Tonight you sail for Kings Landing to join the Northern Armies.

Tyrion: Cersei's followers will abandon her if they know the war is lost, give them that chance. If the city surrenders, they will ring the bells and raise the gates, please, if you hear them ringing the bells, call off the attack.

Dany: <imperceptable nod, then to Grey Worm>... ... ... Wait for me outside the city. You will know when it's time. <Grey Worm leaves>

Tyrion: <walks off to leave the throne room after Grey Worm departs>

Dany: Your brother was stopped trying to get past our lines. It seems he hasn't abandoned your sister afterall. <icey stare> The next time you fail me, will be the last time you fail me. <fuming look as he leaves>
I Have Spoken
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Top comment is great.
Quote:

Minus One Gamer
4 hours ago
Dany doesn't like bells.

Their loud, big...and the sound goes everywhere.
redline248
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If only the writers had claimed she did it out of some sort of calculated plan, rather than spur of the moment "ah, f-ck it!"

As to her in the books, she tried being a peaceful ruler and caring about how much violence is involved, and finally realized the she doesn't need to care about it. If violence goes down for her to rule, fine. If there is collateral damage, fine. However, I still don't think that means she's perfectly ok killing innocents in the street just b/c she's pissed off.
Proposition Joe
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bobinator said:

Another thing I did like is that Euron died thinking he'd killed Jamie Lannister, but he didn't even actually do that since Jamie died from the collapse before his wounds killed him. I kind of liked that bit.

The problem is every thing about Euron in this show is completely worthless so do we really get any joy from his failings one way or the other?

It's hard for me to think of such a poorly written character with so much screen time in overall what was such a great show. His character is literally everything this show has never been about. Just an all-out caricature from the night he seemingly appeared out of nowhere in the story and tossed his dad over the bridge to his end. He also serves as just another example of how the last few seasons were written backwards from a "we need this and this to happen" rather than a logical progression.

We need the dragons to be stoppable -> Euron on his fleet with the scorpions

But we need to have Jaime and Euron face off... How do we get there? Make the previously stoppable dragon unstoppable forcing Euron to shore at the exact time and place where Jaime is.

That takes us from brilliant works of writing to something out of a high school English class.
Zombie Jon Snow
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bangobango said:

This fit anybody on this thread? I think it does....



I think there may be some more of this after they reveal Dany's motivations in torching Kings Landing.

oh yeah.....me. i fessed up to it completely wrong. And it was TERRIBLE.


might have been you also, there were multiple people that I discussed it with.... but I was sooooo wrong there.

here:

https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2877532/replies/54239836
bobinator
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Yeah, I'm not saying it was good writing for sure, I just thought it was kind of funny.
MuckRaker96
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Proposition Joe said:



But we need to have Jaime and Euron face off... How do we get there? Make the previously stoppable dragon unstoppable forcing Euron to shore at the exact time and place where Jaime is.

That takes us from brilliant works of writing to something out of a high school English class.
As I've said a few times, they took the personas of the Kettleblack brothers from the Books 2-4 and made a new Euron. Cocky, a-hole, brutally violent, and main goal in life is banging the queen. I agree he sucked and it must haven been miserable for the actors who play Jamie and Cersei to try to talk to him in a scene, but there it is.

But the "unlikely timing" complaint is kinda laughable. If you don't like coincidence timing, I'm assuming you hate every action movie that has ever existed. Were you mad when Aragorn, Gmili, Legolas and the Undead Army showed up at the last moment to save Gondor? Or in the previous film when Gandalf and the Riders of Rohan did likewise at Helm's Deep? An Euron ambush would have been cooler, but tons of films use extreme coincidence time and place meeting as a plot device.
redline248
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See. Y'all should just trust my instincts on these things
StringerBell
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maybe its stockholm syndrome but im starting to find myself agreeing with bobinator
Claude!
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To be fair, Gandalf told Aragorn ahead of time when he'd be dropping by Helm's Deep.
M.C. Swag
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Make sure you let ZJS know so he can update his spreadsheet
smokeythebear
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I re-watched it. And?
Sex Panther
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Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.
bangobango
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

bangobango said:

This fit anybody on this thread? I think it does....



I think there may be some more of this after they reveal Dany's motivations in torching Kings Landing.

oh yeah.....me. i fessed up to it completely wrong. And it was TERRIBLE.


might have been you also, there were multiple people that I discussed it with.... but I was sooooo wrong there.

here:

https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2877532/replies/54239836


Honestly couldn't remember who argued what when I posted that. Only posted bc I think it'll apply to some of the justifications for Dany's heel turn next week.
Agnzona
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I've asked before and don't think I got a response. Why didn't D&D step away and let someone else take over GOT? Didn't they owe that to GRRM, HBO, cast and crew and the viewers?
"It's what I do...I drink and I know things."
bobinator
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Good, good, feel the power of the dark side...
M.C. Swag
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Sex Panther said:

Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.
He's much cooler. His quest is to be a god. He wears an entire suit of valyrian steel armor. He has a horn called 'dragon-binder' that can enslave a dragon to his will (supposedly). He did all kinds of messed up stuff like sleep with his brother's wife, killed a bunch of priests, etc. His entire persona is legit crazy person..and not this shallow poon-hound that we get.
redline248
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Sex Panther said:

Can a book reader give insight into Euron's character from the books? I saw a video on Youtube that said he was way cooler in the description but I didn't actually watch it.

He seems like he could be a cool character, and I actually like the actor who portrays him.
Been a while, but my recollection is that he is way more mysterious (because he was introduced late and has limited page-time, so far). He's been all over the place, cuts the tongues out of his crew b/c he's paranoid, I guess. He collects a lot of relics and "magical" items. Instead of siding with Cersei he instead raids some of the smaller cities on the western coast. He wins the Iron Islands over Yara b/c he has a horn that supposedly can bring dragons under the control of whoever uses it.
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