****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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redline248
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bobinator
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I mean the acting was trash and the dialogue was worse, but at least we saw Anakin struggling with the decision for a while, then making the decision to cross the line (stopping Mace Windu from killing Palpatine) and then he continued to just go further and further evil.

But at least there was that moment he struggled with the decision and crossed the line AND had a reason that he crossed the line. He didn't kill Mace Windu because he decided 'you know what, I hate all the Jedi now...' He thought saving Palpatine was the only way he'd be able to save Padme, so he decided he couldn't let Palpatine die, and that was the moment he crossed the line.

That's the moment we didn't get from Dany.
Body By Fisher
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redline248 said:

Non episode related question:

Why doesn't Westeros have a bank?
If we're going with real world explanations, modern banking did not develop in the sam way in all countries at the same time. Christian prohibitions on usury laws kept it from developing in Western Europe for a long time, while "certain" cultures thrived on it.

But the rich families like the Lannisters and Tyrells lent money to the Iron Throne, more like feudal Europe.
Phrasing
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bobinator said:

I mean the acting was trash and the dialogue was worse, but at least we saw Anakin struggling with the decision for a while, then making the decision to cross the line (stopping Mace Windu from killing Palpatine) and then he continued to just go further and further evil.

But at least there was that moment he struggled with the decision and crossed the line AND had a reason that he crossed the line. He didn't kill Mace Windu because he decided 'you know what, I hate all the Jedi now...' He thought saving Palpatine was the only way he'd be able to save Padme, so he decided he couldn't let Palpatine die, and that was the moment he crossed the line.

That's the moment we didn't get from Dany.
And that's basically where the line is drawn and both sides will never agree...lol. I disagree and think I did see that moment from Dany. I do think it was very rushed and the story telling wasn't up to par for this series, but looking back I could definitely see it. (I didn't see it in the moment exactly - which I agree is part of the problem).

Just like two groups of people can look at a dumb dress on the internet and disagree on its color - we have two groups of people that look at this story and see it differently. Doesn't make either side right or wrong - we just see it differently and that makes the discussion fun.

JJxvi
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redline248 said:

Non episode related question:

Why doesn't Westeros have a bank?
It's true to period, assuming a Wars of the Roses era. Large scale banking was in its infancy, and only existed in northern Italy, basically. The Medici's of Florence essentially started a London/England office that went bankrupt because they lended money to the wrong sides, and presumably thats basically represented by the Iron Bank of Braavos in this story.
bobinator
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Phrasing said:

bobinator said:

(I didn't see it in the moment exactly - which I agree is part of the problem).

But this is the whole problem right? Like... it's unclear if we saw that moment or not. Let's pretend the writers of the show hadn't said anything publicly about it (which in retrospect they probably should never have done about anything.)

- Some people watching this show think she decided before the battle that she was going to kill everyone in King's Landing. There is decent evidence of this with some of her lines. If that's the case, she isn't crazy at all, this wasn't a 'mad' move, it was a cold decision that the world would be better off by killing everyone in King's Landing and making an example. Let's call this the Hiroshima theory.

- Other people think in that moment, she saw the soldiers about to surrender to Jon, she realized she would never truly be the ruler, so she just lost her **** and blasted everybody because she's crazy. Let's call this the Leroy Jenkins theory.

- Other people aren't sure what exactly happened in that moment. Maybe she went crazy? It's kind of unclear why she did it? Wasn't she obsessed with the Iron Throne and now it's undefended and she's decided now's the time to mow down a bunch of randos?

Any way you look at that, it's poorly written because this is a massive decision, by a main character. It's probably the biggest decision anyone has made on this show right? And yet the audience isn't exactly sure what decision she made. And not like in an 80/20 way where there's just a few people out there complaining to complain, but like a solid split among the fans.
Texaggie7nine
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redline248 said:

Non episode related question:

Why doesn't Westeros have a bank?
It does. But the Iron bank has more money in it than all the other banks around the world combined and is more secure.
Texaggie7nine
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I could see an argument made that her emotions in the moment before burning the city were not that of anger at Cersei but at the fact that she has no choice but to burn the city to gain fear of all those in Westerose so that they never attempt to usurp her rule with Jon Snow. It would be a bad argument, but I could see it being made. And it was anger combined with sadness she was feeling, knowing what she had to do.
jenn96
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AG
I noticed that once Dani decided to Smaug out they never showed her face. She could have been laughing, crying, steely resolve, screaming madness - but they didn't show it. I wonder if that was a conscious decision to maintain ambiguity or if they just kind of forgot to show Emilia.

And I feel compelled to give the old dead horse a kick by pointing out that 3 seasons ago I wouldn't have questioned it, I would have assumed there was a good reason not to show her face. Now I'm honestly assuming they didn't care.
Phrasing
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bobinator said:

Phrasing said:

bobinator said:

(I didn't see it in the moment exactly - which I agree is part of the problem).

But this is the whole problem right? Like... it's unclear if we saw that moment or not. Let's pretend the writers of the show hadn't said anything publicly about it (which in retrospect they probably should never have done about anything.)

- Some people watching this show think she decided before the battle that she was going to kill everyone in King's Landing. There is decent evidence of this with some of her lines. If that's the case, she isn't crazy at all, this wasn't a 'mad' move, it was a cold decision that the world would be better off by killing everyone in King's Landing and making an example. Let's call this the Hiroshima theory.

- Other people think in that moment, she saw the soldiers about to surrender to Jon, she realized she would never truly be the ruler, so she just lost her **** and blasted everybody because she's crazy. Let's call this the Leroy Jenkins theory.

- Other people aren't sure what exactly happened in that moment. Maybe she went crazy? It's kind of unclear why she did it? Wasn't she obsessed with the Iron Throne and now it's undefended and she's decided now's the time to mow down a bunch of randos?

Any way you look at that, it's poorly written because this is a massive decision, by a main character. It's probably the biggest decision anyone has made on this show right? And yet the audience isn't exactly sure what decision she made. And not like in an 80/20 way where there's just a few people out there complaining to complain, but like a solid split among the fans.
Yes, totally agree it's a problem the way they showed it. And the bigger problem is D&D talking about it after the episode. They were saying it was more Leroy Jenkins and not Hiroshima. Honestly, they say more stupid crap so I've stopped listening to their inside the episodes.

But just for me personally, blocking out the D&D comments, I see it as more Hiroshima with a little bit of Leroy Jenkins that pushed her over the edge. She planned it and thought it was the only option left (HT to cbr for his soliloquy yesterday helping me put those thoughts into words), and then in the moment she hesitated, but saw the Red Keep and went through with it. Just my interpretation watching the show and following what I have seen.
M.C. Swag
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jenn96 said:

I noticed that once Dani decided to Smaug out they never showed her face. She could have been laughing, crying, steely resolve, screaming madness - but they didn't show it. I wonder if that was a conscious decision to maintain ambiguity or if they just kind of forgot to show Emilia.

And I feel compelled to give the old dead horse a kick by pointing out that 3 seasons ago I wouldn't have questioned it, I would have assumed there was a good reason not to show her face. Now I'm honestly assuming they didn't care.
It was a creative choice by Sapochnik. He said something about how Dany and Drogon were essentially the same to the eyes of the common people that were being killed so they shot it in a way to focus more on that aspect.

I'm personally ok with not seeing it because a) the cgi of Dany riding a dragon is just not up to par and looks really bad most times and b) it's not like it would make her motivations for what she was doing any clearer. (essentially it'd serve no purpose)
Champ Bailey
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Texaggie7nine said:

I could see an argument made that her emotions in the moment before burning the city were not that of anger at Cersei but at the fact that she has no choice but to burn the city to gain fear of all those in Westerose so that they never attempt to usurp her rule with Jon Snow. It would be a bad argument, but I could see it being made. And it was anger combined with sadness she was feeling, knowing what she had to do.


Watched the making of episode last night, and they explained it as she won too easily and the revenge for all the losses she had suffered felt hollow. At that point she decided to go after the people in order to teach them and Cersei exactly who she was.

It's incredible IMO, because it's the exact opposite of Arya. Arya came to King's Landing looking for revenge, but decided it was not worth ruining her life over. So you get to see the contrast between the two characters. The Hound's purpose in this entire show was revenge, yet we love the Clegane bowl, because he has never been dishonest about his intentions.The north and Allied Forces have continually claimed they were coming for Justice, yet once they had it in hand it became obvious they wanted more than that. Revenge. And Jon, who always has been true with his intentions, is left to deal with the fallout of realizing that there is no good side or bad side, just people with competing goals. Whether he decides he can live with that or not is the big question left in the Finale.
jenn96
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M.C. Swag said:

jenn96 said:

I noticed that once Dani decided to Smaug out they never showed her face. She could have been laughing, crying, steely resolve, screaming madness - but they didn't show it. I wonder if that was a conscious decision to maintain ambiguity or if they just kind of forgot to show Emilia.

And I feel compelled to give the old dead horse a kick by pointing out that 3 seasons ago I wouldn't have questioned it, I would have assumed there was a good reason not to show her face. Now I'm honestly assuming they didn't care.
It was a creative choice by Sapochnik. He said something about how Dany and Drogon were essentially the same to the eyes of the common people that were being killed so they shot it in a way to focus more on that aspect.

I'm personally ok with not seeing it because a) the cgi of Dany riding a dragon is just not up to par and looks really bad most times and b) it's not like it would make her motivations for what she was doing any clearer. (essentially it'd serve no purpose)

Thanks! I hadn't seen that. And I do agree; at that point Dani WAS Drogan. I'm glad it was intentional and not just whatevs.
BowSowy
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Phrasing said:

bobinator said:

Phrasing said:

bobinator said:

(I didn't see it in the moment exactly - which I agree is part of the problem).

But this is the whole problem right? Like... it's unclear if we saw that moment or not. Let's pretend the writers of the show hadn't said anything publicly about it (which in retrospect they probably should never have done about anything.)

- Some people watching this show think she decided before the battle that she was going to kill everyone in King's Landing. There is decent evidence of this with some of her lines. If that's the case, she isn't crazy at all, this wasn't a 'mad' move, it was a cold decision that the world would be better off by killing everyone in King's Landing and making an example. Let's call this the Hiroshima theory.

- Other people think in that moment, she saw the soldiers about to surrender to Jon, she realized she would never truly be the ruler, so she just lost her **** and blasted everybody because she's crazy. Let's call this the Leroy Jenkins theory.

- Other people aren't sure what exactly happened in that moment. Maybe she went crazy? It's kind of unclear why she did it? Wasn't she obsessed with the Iron Throne and now it's undefended and she's decided now's the time to mow down a bunch of randos?

Any way you look at that, it's poorly written because this is a massive decision, by a main character. It's probably the biggest decision anyone has made on this show right? And yet the audience isn't exactly sure what decision she made. And not like in an 80/20 way where there's just a few people out there complaining to complain, but like a solid split among the fans.
Yes, totally agree it's a problem the way they showed it. And the bigger problem is D&D talking about it after the episode. They were saying it was more Leroy Jenkins and not Hiroshima. Honestly, they say more stupid crap so I've stopped listening to their inside the episodes.

But just for me personally, blocking out the D&D comments, I see it as more Hiroshima with a little bit of Leroy Jenkins that pushed her over the edge. She planned it and thought it was the only option left (HT to cbr for his soliloquy yesterday helping me put those thoughts into words), and then in the moment she hesitated, but saw the Red Keep and went through with it. Just my interpretation watching the show and following what I have seen.
I'm sure this has been said before, but they do themselves a huge disservice with the inside the episodes. My favorite was when they said Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet and that's why she lost a dragon.
Texaggie7nine
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Actually it would make it more clear. If she was screaming, then it's emotional rage and madness. If she was crying, then she was acting out of something she thought she had to do but did not want to.
Phrasing
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M.C. Swag said:

jenn96 said:

I noticed that once Dani decided to Smaug out they never showed her face. She could have been laughing, crying, steely resolve, screaming madness - but they didn't show it. I wonder if that was a conscious decision to maintain ambiguity or if they just kind of forgot to show Emilia.

And I feel compelled to give the old dead horse a kick by pointing out that 3 seasons ago I wouldn't have questioned it, I would have assumed there was a good reason not to show her face. Now I'm honestly assuming they didn't care.
It was a creative choice by Sapochnik. He said something about how Dany and Drogon were essentially the same to the eyes of the common people that were being killed so they shot it in a way to focus more on that aspect.

I'm personally ok with not seeing it because a) the cgi of Dany riding a dragon is just not up to par and looks really bad most times and b) it's not like it would make her motivations for what she was doing any clearer. (essentially it'd serve no purpose)
I also took it as a nod to her old character dying essentially. The Dany we used to know was no more and now she was a "dragon". Just like Olenna told her to be. I'm expecting next week when we see her again, it will be more of a new character - kind of like old Anakin vs new Anakin.
FIDO95
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One idea I haven't seen discussed much (admittedly I cannot keep up with every post on this thread), was that she thought the bells were a trap, a fake surrender to get her off Drogon.

Before the battle, Tyrion asks her to stand down at the sound of the bells. She then tells him that Jamie is captured and that he will be executed if he betrays her.

He then betrays her by releasing Jamie. You have to believe that that kind of information would get back to her quickly. That then causes her to believe the bells is another part of her betrayal as she seems to loose it when the bells sound.

I thought it curious that Grey Worm sized up Jon when things started to go south. He looked back at him as if to see what Jons response was. Grey Worm looked ready to fight him if he and the Northern soldiers started attacking unsullied. He turns away only after seeing Jon fighting against KL defenders.

So if Dany and Grey Worm has concerns about treason and the bells ring, Dany believes the betrayal of love has occurred at goes mad queen. No way for her to know Jon still fighting for her on the streets.
chase128
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Yeah I think she's going to be a lot different when Jon confronts her. How Jon reacts is one of the things I'm most looking forward to.
BarryProfit
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FIDO95 said:

One idea I haven't seen discussed much (admittedly I cannot keep up with every post on this thread), was that she thought the bells were a trap, a fake surrender to get her off Drogon.

Before the battle, Tyrion asks her to stand down at the sound of the bells. She then tells him that Jamie is captured and that he will be executed if he betrays her.

He then betrays her by releasing Jamie. You have to believe that that kind of information would get back to her quickly. That then causes her to believe the bells is another part of her betrayal as she seems to loose it when the bells sound.

I thought it curious that Grey Worm sized up Jon when things started to go south. He looked back at him as if to see what Jons response was. Grey Worm looked ready to fight him if he and the Northern soldiers started attacking unsullied. He turns away only after seeing Jon fighting against KL defenders.

So if Dany and Grey Worm has concerns about treason and the bells ring, Dany believes the betrayal of love has occurred at goes mad queen. No way for her to know Jon still fighting for her on the streets.


I thought the same thing re: the bells. If you want closely you also saw Cersi smile/relax once the bell ringing started, it was definitely her intention to use that "mercy" to her advantage.
Texaggie7nine
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And the Wildfire explosions could have been traps for her armies. That is all true.

But it would help if they told us these things somehow. Maybe have Cersei say "get ready to light the wildfire" Otherwise we can only assume it was just Dany being crazy.
M.C. Swag
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Texaggie7nine said:

Actually it would make it more clear. If she was screaming, then it's emotional rage and madness. If she was crying, then she was acting out of something she thought she had to do but did not want to.
To each their own. It was a creative choice that I thought was well reasoned (from a technical standpoint). To me, it doesn't make her decision to burn KL to the ground any more or less clear if we get a shot of her angry face or sad face.
jboog
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It really is all cocks in the end
ja86
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Texaggie7nine said:

And the Wildfire explosions could have been traps for her armies. That is all true.

But it would help if they told us these things somehow. Maybe have Cersei say "get ready to light the wildfire" Otherwise we can only assume it was just Dany being crazy.
no i don't think the wildfire was Cersei plan. They were the remnants of Aerys plan to destroy kings landing and just show that Dany has become her father.

Cersei went all in on the scorpions killing the dragon or Dany not willing to kill all the people she stuffed into the city.
WestAustinAg
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bobinator said:




- Some people watching this show think she decided before the battle that she was going to kill everyone in King's Landing. There is decent evidence of this with some of her lines. If that's the case, she isn't crazy at all, this wasn't a 'mad' move, it was a cold decision that the world would be better off by killing everyone in King's Landing and making an example. Let's call this the Hiroshima theory.
You're misstating what most of us who supported the 'beech be crazy' theory.

We're saying that there were signs of her being maniacally focused, in a messianic way, to have what she thinks is hers (the throne). This reveals a pathological issue right there. It was there all along. With each additional rung on the ladder of success and power she became more skillful at wrath...more undeterred by forgiveness of others so-called mistakes. She was never truly reliable...her corruption grew with her power. When/if she takes over she will become the murderous dictator she seemingly hated.

This is the GOT overarching story - those that want to get into power to do good...become corrupted by all the machiavellian games they have to play to reach power. Until they are just allowing the murder of those who rise up against them when they are in power. See many modern politicians as example.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."


WestAustinAg
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BarryProfit said:




I thought the same thing re: the bells. If you want closely you also saw Cersi smile/relax once the bell ringing started, it was definitely her intention to use that "mercy" to her advantage.
Excellent point. It was written as to be a way for Cersei to get out. And Dany is so corrupted by power now that she takes this umbrage as the final straw...she enacts the final solution, "burn the mother down".
bobinator
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Yeah, I worded that poorly. What I mean is that in that theory, she's decided before the battle ever begins that she's burning the whole thing down no matter what. Now, her reasons for that are crazy, but it's like a premeditated crazy. More like a terrorist attack. Her logic has been warped, but there's still logic in the plan.
bobinator
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I actually really like the idea that she had decided to make an example of King's Landing, and I posted this a few pages back (probably 40 by now,) but a bad ass way they could have set that up is in a conversation with Grey Worm the morning of the attack.

He could say something like 'hopefully they ring the bells, and the fighting will finally be over.'
We see Dany, rage in her eyes, 'They won't ring them. And the fighting will never be over.'

That would have set up the idea that she's almost hoping they don't surrender, and then they do surrender, and she pauses to consider it.... and then torches them anyway.

Doing that would set that up a little bit, and would only have taken like 20 seconds of screen time.
bobinator
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Yeah, so this is something I think they actually got right.

Cersei thinks that between the scorpions, the golden company and surrounding herself with innocent people that there's no way she's going to lose. But she underestimated Dany, who out Cersei'd Cersei.

I read her reaction to the bells ringing as an almost resigned 'welp, that's over.' Like she's almost relieved that there's no more scheming, no more planning, there's absolutely nothing more she can do. Almost how like if you weave a web of lies to your parents as a teenager and the web finally breaks that it's almost a relief of 'yeah okay whatever, it's done, what's the punishment.'
Lester Freamon
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Yeah but who's got time for that when ZOMG dragons and explosions.

Whoever compared this to a Michael Bay film several pages back is not totally inaccurate. I've lost a lot of respect for D&D.
CapCityAg89
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My take on Dany is that she was genuinely torn.

Her gut says to burn them all - this is the conversation she had all the way back to last season when she had the entire team (with Yara, Ellaria and Lady Olena). She said burn her out and they all talked her out of it. That's been going on for multiple episodes - the idea of an overwhelming, Aegon the Conquerer-style display of power (I hate the term, but "shock and awe"). Nobody agrees, so she keeps backing off of it.

Tyrion reminds her that the ringing of the bells is the traditional signal that the city has surrendered and to please, please spare them. But in her little Targareon heart, she knows that somebody, somewhere is going to question her right to rule unless they KNOW she's the Queen and knows she'll do whatever it takes to be respected and obeyed - through fear if not love.

So, in that moment the bells start ringing we see her innate goodness ("breaker of chains") and the advise of her counsel fight with a lifetime spent trusting her instincts and the ruthless measures taught by Khal Drogo and the Dothraki that she will need to "mount the world".

I thought all that played out beautifully on the face Emilia Clarke who is just so expressive. I've not gotten the angst on this thread as I thought it was pretty clear what she was going through before she decided to listen to the Khal this time (instead of getting burned by mercy as she did with the witch).
wangus12
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bangobango
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This fit anybody on this thread? I think it does....



I think there may be some more of this after they reveal Dany's motivations in torching Kings Landing.
bobinator
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I think the issue there is that there are a lot of steps between 'shock and awe' and 'kill everyone here.'

I think a better way to pull that off would have either been to set up that she's not even considering the possibility that they'll actually surrender (thus setting up her decision to ignore the bells when they do) OR, for her to go get the iron throne first.

She flies to the keep, finds it deserted, walks the steps to the iron throne and sits on it, and then looking around realizes that the throne itself is meaningless. She's alone, and everyone out there is plotting against her. She doesn't really have any power except fear. She goes to a window where she can look out over the city and sees Stark banners, Lannister banners, etc... and then that's the moment she decides the only way she's going to be safe is to make an example of the whole city.

To me that realization that the thing she's obsessed with, the throne, isn't actually the thing she's obsessed with at all could have been pretty powerful.
PeekingDuck
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

PeekingDuck said:

It is 100% Star Wars. Disney sets the schedule.
Like for the world?


Starting to look that way.
Body By Fisher
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Lester Freamon said:

Yeah but who's got time for that when ZOMG dragons and explosions.

Whoever compared this to a Michael Bay film several pages back is not totally inaccurate. I've lost a lot of respect for D&D.
Michael Bay with a dose of Carrie. The boys were being mean so she lost control and killed everyone at the prom.

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