At least on this thread we know the majority of us have put a lot of actual thought into this and we're watching the episode intently.
Is there anything worse than hearing a podcast or radio talk show discuss things half-assedly?

And I want to pat myself on the back for having my favorite and probably my best post on TexAgs (though I never have much to contribute) on the first page of this thread set up by the OP, thanks ZJS

JCRiley09 said:

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Can we talk about the books and how Howland Reed is important in this thread?

Asking for a friend














See y'all in 7 pages

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Speaking of stuff on page 1. Check this out.

Seemed pretty easy to me

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Finally, wouldn't it have been great if they would've implemented a really good military strategy but still looked like they would lose? To me, that would've added so much more to the episode. Start it off as a siege, have the Dothraki flank the army of the dead, everything is coming up Milhouse, but then the NK raise the recently killed to turn the tide for a bit. Give hope early on, then give a sense of dread and hopelessness, then finish it off with the kill.

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I've spent days pondering on this and I don't think it takes a military historian or highly skilled strategist to know that the defense of Winterfell was very poorly executed. No one sans the Dothraki should have been outside the trench and the catapults and trebuchets should have also been behind the trench with the infantry with some behind the castle walls. As you noted, the Dothraki should have attacked the flanks and rear in squadrons, with mounted bowman and dragon glass tipped spears, to try to take out as many as possible but also to try to keep the wight advance as spread out as possible. Then alternating dragon fire runs up the middle with volleys from the trebuchets (catapults could fire almost horizontally and wouldn't risk hitting a dragon). When the infantry couldn't hold back the advance across the trench any further, retreat as many as possible to the castle. Even rope ladders would be have been something. Pack the outer walls of the castle with anything that would burn and set it all on fire once the infantry is pulled back. Then cross your fingers you can hold the walls.

And honestly, I'm sure the writers probably sat around for days and discussed and debated ideas like this with GCI and effects people and production staff. And they probably came to the conclusion they couldn't afford to create Helms Deep v2.0 or Gondor v2.0. I'd imagine extended horse charges against a zombie army are pretty expensive and difficult so they came up with some other ideas. And they may have decided a more structured sensible infantry defense would make sense but preferred the shock value of the good guys being overrun in a wave of the undead.

Yeah, it's not perfect but it's trying to be all things to all viewers now. I'm not put off by it as I have been much more focused on just seeing how they closed this out as opposed to getting a perfect battle scene.

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Finally, wouldn't it have been great if they would've implemented a really good military strategy but still looked like they would lose? To me, that would've added so much more to the episode. Start it off as a siege, have the Dothraki flank the army of the dead, everything is coming up Milhouse, but then the NK raise the recently killed to turn the tide for a bit. Give hope early on, then give a sense of dread and hopelessness, then finish it off with the kill.

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this would have been similar to Blackwater from Tyrion's perspective. Had a good initial strategy - surprise wildfire. Ultimately though they were about to be overrun by superior numbers until Tywin and the Tyrells appeared out of nowhere to save the day. But really we should have seen them coming given the events of the previous episodes.

Watched again.

Maybe Bran being in Bran vision right up until the end has something to do with how Arya made the kill. I think there could be some reveal there. What was Bran doing? The NK was on the ground and moving in on him. What more could Bran accomplish at that point?

Urban Ag said:

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Watched again.

Maybe Bran being in Bran vision right up until the end has something to do with how Arya made the kill. I think there could be some reveal there. What was Bran doing? The NK was on the ground and moving in on him. What more could Bran accomplish at that point?

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I've seen people ask why Bran didn't do anything that whole time but I keep wondering what he possibly could have done. It's not like he can fight, so all he was supposed to do was sit there and be bait.

Belton Ag said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Watched again.

Maybe Bran being in Bran vision right up until the end has something to do with how Arya made the kill. I think there could be some reveal there. What was Bran doing? The NK was on the ground and moving in on him. What more could Bran accomplish at that point?

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I've seen people ask why Bran didn't do anything that whole time but I keep wondering what he possibly could have done. It's not like he can fight, so all he was supposed to do was sit there and be bait.

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Bran, Jon, and Arya all warged in to their wolves in their sleep. I don't think was ever touched in the series except for Bran. Probably a huge stretch because it wasn't covered in the series but the three have that connection. And at the very end of it, Bran is the bait and Jon and Arya are trying to make it to him.

InternetFan02 said:

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Quote:

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Finally, wouldn't it have been great if they would've implemented a really good military strategy but still looked like they would lose? To me, that would've added so much more to the episode. Start it off as a siege, have the Dothraki flank the army of the dead, everything is coming up Milhouse, but then the NK raise the recently killed to turn the tide for a bit. Give hope early on, then give a sense of dread and hopelessness, then finish it off with the kill.

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this would have been similar to Blackwater from Tyrion's perspective. Had a good initial strategy - surprise wildfire. Ultimately though they were about to be overrun by superior numbers until Tywin and the Tyrells appeared out of nowhere to save the day. But really we should have seen them coming given the events of the previous episodes.

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Tyion. Meh. So overrated. Always has to be bailed out. Blackwater. Death Sentence. Merreen. Has he ever done anything without someone else saving the day?

I thought they mentioned part of the reasoning for being outside the walls was to force the battle and prevent a siege, to essentially goad the night king into going for 3ER

Do know why the music at the end building up to the NK death is bothering some people.

If you close your eyes; you are listening to Westworld (same composer).

I still like it; but you can definitely hear Westworld in there directly. If you are watchers of both shows when you rewatch this episode it will click for you and you'll go ah! And then expect to see The Man In Black step around a corner.

Didn't bother me, but did have that familiar feel.

Txgunrnnr said:

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Finally!

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Pretty encapsulates my opinions. Bad battle tactics aside, there are a lot of storytelling decisions that contradict prior storytelling elements and direction of battle scenes just took a lot away from the sense of doom. It's not terrible but when confronted with the history of the show and story leading up to it doesn't really hold its own. I hope the next 3 episodes provide good closure for the human element of the story.

Who or what are you even responding to? The 15 seconds of video talking about Arya's jump it somebody in particular?

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Urban Ag said:

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InternetFan02 said:

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Quote:

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Finally, wouldn't it have been great if they would've implemented a really good military strategy but still looked like they would lose? To me, that would've added so much more to the episode. Start it off as a siege, have the Dothraki flank the army of the dead, everything is coming up Milhouse, but then the NK raise the recently killed to turn the tide for a bit. Give hope early on, then give a sense of dread and hopelessness, then finish it off with the kill.

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this would have been similar to Blackwater from Tyrion's perspective. Had a good initial strategy - surprise wildfire. Ultimately though they were about to be overrun by superior numbers until Tywin and the Tyrells appeared out of nowhere to save the day. But really we should have seen them coming given the events of the previous episodes.

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Tyion. Meh. So overrated. Always has to be bailed out. Blackwater. Death Sentence. Merreen. Has he ever done anything without someone else saving the day?

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Choked the **** out of Shae.

Crossbowed Tywin.

Pissed off the Wall

***** slapped Joffrey

Belittles Meryn Trant and stops him from abusing Sansa.

Drinks and knows things.

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Still needed Jamie. Still needed Varys. Still needed Bronn. Still needed Tywin. Still needs Dany. Just like Jon, always relying on someone else.

you know what you call someone in GOT with nobody to lean on????...... dead.

Episode IV said:

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Do know why the music at the end building up to the NK death is bothering some people.

If you close your eyes; you are listening to Westworld (same composer).

I still like it; but you can definitely hear Westworld in there directly. If you are watchers of both shows when you rewatch this episode it will click for you and you'll go ah! And then expect to see The Man In Black step around a corner.

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It didn't feel like a GoT song to me. Even the song it is most similar to "Light of the Seven" still sounded like a GoT song. Good call on the Westworld thing. I love Djawadi (and this song), but it seems like he got his composition styles mixed up!

Fenrir said:

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Who or what are you even responding to? The 15 seconds of video talking about Arya's jump it somebody in particular?

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I was just making a general post of my thoughts on a message board for the show "Game of Thrones."

If you give me your cell #, I can text all my posts to you before hand to get your approval from now on.

Happy GoT day.

MuckRaker96 said:

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Not sure why I'm even bothering at this point since we're less than 24 hours away from the next episode, but I'd like to think the reason Arya is successful is because she's an unknown commodity to the NK.

He's never met seen before, he can't know she's in the castle. He knows Jon has Valyrian steel and that probably leads him to assume that any other well-armored and armed knight-looking person likewise has a weapon that can hurt him, so he lays siege to the Briennes, Jamies, Tormunds, and Jorahs of the world with overwhelming numbers of wights. And he doesn't really care if it takes 5 seconds or 10 hours to kill each of those people, eventually his numbers will win out, and he can keep them at arm's length from damaging him or the other WW.

Arya doesn't look like a knight, fight like a knight, or move like a knight. She's something else. And whether you buy into her ninja leap or not, you have to assume the NK has never seen anyone trained by the Faceless Men before, and that lets her have the upper hand, although he still almost stops her.

Her leap isn't anything worse than every time Commissioner Gordon turns around for 2 seconds and suddenly Batman has vanished, or when Dungeon Master used to walk behind a rock on Dungeons & Dragons and he was suddenly gone.

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All of that is well and good rationalization but D&D said after the show that Arya was able to kill the NK by stabbing him in the exact place he was made (lucky for her) with her dagger that was made with shards of the same dragonglass that was used to turn him into a WW (because D&D said so). So in reality, it could only have been Arya in this specifically contrived and un-explained way. Had nothing to do with her ninja skills or being sneaky. Jon and every other character with a Valyrian sword( or dragon) were neutered without even knowing it.