bobinator said:

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I'm actually not that worried about it.... I'm guessing (hoping?) that the writers have had an ending in mind since they started this thing, and that some of the decisions made along the way are to serve that ending.

But we'll see.

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Urban Ag said:

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What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?

---

clinker03 said:

---

I absolutely loved the episode, it had me on the edge of my seat for all 80 minutes. On the rewatch, yes, I noticed the battle tactics were not great, but I agree, it doesn't bother me that much. My three main gripes from the episode were:

(1) Suspect Battle Tactics
(2) Not enough main character deaths, especially when it looked like a lot of those guys should have died
(3) Why didn't Rhaegal and Drogon use fire on the wight dragon when they were fighting?

However, even with these gripes, it was still amazing television. We can sit back and nit pick every little thing (and part of that makes this discussion fun), but my main barometer for the show now is "Am I Entertained?". I was, and it left me counting the minutes until the next episode. Can't want to see what happens.

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MuckRaker96 said:

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bangobango said:

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Urban Ag said:

---

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?

---

Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

---

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.

---

MuckRaker96 said:

---

bangobango said:

---

Urban Ag said:

---

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?

---

Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

---

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.

---

bangobango said:

---

Urban Ag said:

---

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?

---

Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

---

M.C. Swag said:

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StringerBell said:

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i can kind of see both sides of it

yeah sam went out like a *****, but he's also not the sword wielding kind. he killed the WW because he HAD to to protect his girl. he killed the rapers because he HAD to to protect his girl.

him curing jorah was an intellectual endeavor not a physical one

dude was overmatched and out of his element in the battle and i think it showed. agree his plot line would have been neater and cleaner had he been in the crypt protecting his girl because that's what he does, but they needed everyone out there.

---

The point is that Sam isn't one to run from the face of danger. Especially when those he cares about are in the face of that danger. It was a complete character regression moment and I wish he hadn't even been there if that's the only narrative purpose he served.

Again, no one is asking for Sam to become a sword wielding badass. Just don't show him regress to the sniveling character YOU showed he already grew from.

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jeffdjohnson said:

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clinker03 said:

---

I absolutely loved the episode, it had me on the edge of my seat for all 80 minutes. On the rewatch, yes, I noticed the battle tactics were not great, but I agree, it doesn't bother me that much. My three main gripes from the episode were:

(1) Suspect Battle Tactics
(2) Not enough main character deaths, especially when it looked like a lot of those guys should have died
(3) Why didn't Rhaegal and Drogon use fire on the wight dragon when they were fighting?

However, even with these gripes, it was still amazing television. We can sit back and nit pick every little thing (and part of that makes this discussion fun), but my main barometer for the show now is "Am I Entertained?". I was, and it left me counting the minutes until the next episode. Can't want to see what happens.

---

---

MuckRaker96 said:

---

bangobango said:

---

MuckRaker96 said:

---

bangobango said:

---

Urban Ag said:

---

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?

---

Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

---

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.

---

So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing.. First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation. Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death. Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle. Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead and NK just overran his defense of Hardhomme, so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.

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I'm a guy on the Internet who came up with these 3 examples in 30 seconds during my work day. Go Wiki JOn Snow if you need his day to day itenierary from the last 8 seasons.

In all of three examples, Jon uses the tools around him to defeat his enemies. If I kill the Magnar with a bazooka or I kill him with a hammer, I still killed him. I'm the winner and he's the loser.

Where is he supposed to learn military strategy from? Sure, I'm sure Eddard Stark let him sit in on some lessons with Robb, but he grew up a *******, which means you're never going to be commanding troops. His main job in the NW was bringing Mormont hot wine to drink. IN the book, Jon is 14 when he joins the watch. In the show, maybe 18. How realistic is it to expect him to be capable of building military strategies for large-scale battles?

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bobinator said:

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Luke Smith said:

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Any chance that the show twists in these final 3 episodes and makes Bran into something evil?

He has the NK's mark. Maybe that and/or his powers warm and twist his mind and he becomes something worse. OR maybe he still can become the new night king?

Idk maybe I'm just reaching trying to hope something is more interesting than the fight for who sits in a chair

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I do think there still has to be some kind of something with Bran in these last few episodes. If all of that stuff about being able to affect the past and all of that doesn't do anything more to the plot than give Hodor an origin story it will be massively disappointing.

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My Dad Earl said:

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bobinator said:

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Luke Smith said:

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Any chance that the show twists in these final 3 episodes and makes Bran into something evil?

He has the NK's mark. Maybe that and/or his powers warm and twist his mind and he becomes something worse. OR maybe he still can become the new night king?

Idk maybe I'm just reaching trying to hope something is more interesting than the fight for who sits in a chair

---

I do think there still has to be some kind of something with Bran in these last few episodes. If all of that stuff about being able to affect the past and all of that doesn't do anything more to the plot than give Hodor an origin story it will be massively disappointing.

---

A couple things to this Bran plot...

1. When Jon reunites with Bran, Jon says "You're a man now", Bran says "Not anymore". What does that mean?

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FightinTexasAg15 said:

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My Dad Earl said:

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bobinator said:

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Luke Smith said:

---

Any chance that the show twists in these final 3 episodes and makes Bran into something evil?

He has the NK's mark. Maybe that and/or his powers warm and twist his mind and he becomes something worse. OR maybe he still can become the new night king?

Idk maybe I'm just reaching trying to hope something is more interesting than the fight for who sits in a chair

---

I do think there still has to be some kind of something with Bran in these last few episodes. If all of that stuff about being able to affect the past and all of that doesn't do anything more to the plot than give Hodor an origin story it will be massively disappointing.

---

A couple things to this Bran plot...

1. When Jon reunites with Bran, Jon says "You're a man now", Bran says "Not anymore". What does that mean?

---

He says "almost" not "not anymore".

He's just implying he's not quite a man, because he's the three eyed raven

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Urban Ag said:

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You seem so invested in convincing everyone that Jon Snow's character is lame and GOT sucks that you're now throwing out kind of ridiculous statements to keep beating this horse. We get it. You don't like it. But you're really stretching at this point to make everyone dislike it too.

Quote:

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So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing..

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Every single military operation Jon has been involved in has two similar components. He was greatly outnumbered and had no choice but to fight anyway.
Castle Black/the Wall - defeated wildlings south of the wall, held them back north of the wall. No one really knows if they would have eventually made it through the wall. Jon made no blunders. Stannis crushing the Wildlings doesn't take away from Jon in the least. Was he supposed to beat 50,000 of them with 300 NW?
Hardhome - diplomatic/evacuation/rescue mission. No blunders. Was he supposed to defeat the army of the dead with what was on hand?
BotB - had no choice but to fight Ramsay against staggering odds. You can call it a bail out, but they could stand and fight or be hunted down and exterminated. They had no where to go.
BoW - not bailed out. Coalition that planned the defenses together.

Quote:

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First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation.

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So you've hated it since S1. Why are you still here?

Quote:

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Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death.

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So what? Has nothing to do with anything. He/they beat the wildlings south of the wall.

Quote:

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Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle.

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So what? The NW couldn't beat 50,000 wildlings. Says nothing about Jon.

Quote:

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Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead army overran his defense of Hardhomme,

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His defenses? Really? This is his fault? This is just silly at this point.

Quote:

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so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.

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Again, you're obviously not happy until you're miserable. Ultimately there was no way Jon could win Caste Black/the Wall, Hardhome, or BotB. No one could. He had to fight them anyway. That's the scenarios that GRRM and D&B created. Impossible odds situations. But Jon is a bumbling idiot because he couldn't do the impossible without some help. Ok.

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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StringerBell said:

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i can kind of see both sides of it

yeah sam went out like a *****, but he's also not the sword wielding kind. he killed the WW because he HAD to to protect his girl. he killed the rapers because he HAD to to protect his girl.

him curing jorah was an intellectual endeavor not a physical one

dude was overmatched and out of his element in the battle and i think it showed. agree his plot line would have been neater and cleaner had he been in the crypt protecting his girl because that's what he does, but they needed everyone out there.

---

The point is that Sam isn't one to run from the face of danger. Especially when those he cares about are in the face of that danger. It was a complete character regression moment and I wish he hadn't even been there if that's the only narrative purpose he served.

Again, no one is asking for Sam to become a sword wielding badass. Just don't show him regress to the sniveling character YOU showed he already grew from.

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Him being out on the front lines in the first place showed that he wasn't running from danger.

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Fenrir said:

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I question how much he can really change the past anyway. If he can really alter it go tell the cotf to stop being *******s with the making a giant murder machine idea.

There has to be some limitation to it. Otherwise this should be over already.

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bangobango said:

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MuckRaker96 said:

---

bangobango said:

---

MuckRaker96 said:

---

bangobango said:

---

Urban Ag said:

---

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?

---

Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

---

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.

---

So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing.. First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation. Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death. Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle. Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead and NK just overran his defense of Hardhomme, so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.

---

I'm a guy on the Internet who came up with these 3 examples in 30 seconds during my work day. Go Wiki JOn Snow if you need his day to day itenierary from the last 8 seasons.

In all of three examples, Jon uses the tools around him to defeat his enemies. If I kill the Magnar with a bazooka or I kill him with a hammer, I still killed him. I'm the winner and he's the loser.

Where is he supposed to learn military strategy from? Sure, I'm sure Eddard Stark let him sit in on some lessons with Robb, but he grew up a *******, which means you're never going to be commanding troops. His main job in the NW was bringing Mormont hot wine to drink. IN the book, Jon is 14 when he joins the watch. In the show, maybe 18. How realistic is it to expect him to be capable of building military strategies for large-scale battles?

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Are you arguing the writers intentionally made him incompetent?

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MaroonStain said:

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I just learned from this page that the British lost the Battle of Dunkirk...

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