****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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M.C. Swag
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bobinator said:

I'm actually not that worried about it.... I'm guessing (hoping?) that the writers have had an ending in mind since they started this thing, and that some of the decisions made along the way are to serve that ending.

But we'll see.
Unfortunately the writers are just flying by the seam of their pants. They're looking for 'shock value' over story telling.
ChipFTAC01
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I don't think Aryas walking away at the end. Something tells me her goose gets cooked. Trying to kill Cersei or something.
Fenrir
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I question how much he can really change the past anyway. If he can really alter it go tell the cotf to stop being *******s with the making a giant murder machine idea.

There has to be some limitation to it. Otherwise this should be over already.
MuckRaker96
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I'd like to see Episode 4 have Sansa draw a line in the sand (snow) - either you're staying here to rebuild the North or you're going south to fight Cersei, and if you're going that way, don't come back.

Since Jon is honor-bound (and p-whipped) by Danerys, he goes south with her, the Unsullied, the Hound, etc.
Arya stays behind, despite having the Mountain and Cersei on her list, she realizes that working to rebuild the North is a lot more important than revenge.
Brienne stays because shes' sworn to Sansa, which means Tormund stays because it's time to start making giant babies. Ser Podrick stays and Gendry stays so they double date the Stark sisters.

Jon and Dany and the rest fight the Golden Company and whatever craziness Qyburn's got cooked up. Jon and Rhaegal get killed; Dany goes bonkers and starts burning everything down to get to Cersei. When Cersei sees she ain't going to win, she cues Qyburn to light the wildfire that is now everywhere under the city and utters the phrase we've been waiting to hear: "BURN THEM ALL"

Dany is able to escape on Drogon. Everyone else dies - Tyrion, Jamie, Sandor, Grey Worm, everyone. When the fire subsides, Dany returns. The Iron Throne is hers, but the price she paid for it was the life of everyone loyal to her.
Urban Ag
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What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?
bangobango
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Urban Ag said:

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?


Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.
Rustys-Beef-o-Reeno
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clinker03 said:

I absolutely loved the episode, it had me on the edge of my seat for all 80 minutes. On the rewatch, yes, I noticed the battle tactics were not great, but I agree, it doesn't bother me that much. My three main gripes from the episode were:

(1) Suspect Battle Tactics
(2) Not enough main character deaths, especially when it looked like a lot of those guys should have died
(3) Why didn't Rhaegal and Drogon use fire on the wight dragon when they were fighting?

However, even with these gripes, it was still amazing television. We can sit back and nit pick every little thing (and part of that makes this discussion fun), but my main barometer for the show now is "Am I Entertained?". I was, and it left me counting the minutes until the next episode. Can't want to see what happens.


MuckRaker96
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bangobango said:

Urban Ag said:

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?


Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.
wangus12
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MuckRaker96 said:

bangobango said:

Urban Ag said:

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?


Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.
I think Jon is pretty much a great combatant that lacks any real military strategy experience which is fine. He didn't get the training for that type of thing. But they really do seem to make him lose or screw up any major encounter which is kind of annoying. Through the dude a bone. Dany sure does
bangobango
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MuckRaker96 said:

bangobango said:

Urban Ag said:

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?


Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.


So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing.. First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation. Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death. Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle. Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead and NK just overran his defense of Hardhomme, so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.
Icecream_Ag
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I'd just like to point out that Arya stabbed the NK on page 159 of this thread. The first non darkness related complaint came on page 161. We have spent 70+ pages arguing over 15 minutes of an 82 minute episode of an 8 season show.

This is by far the most TexAgs thing I've ever been apart of.
Urban Ag
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Additionally, Jon didn't really have any choice but to face Ramsay. What else was he to do? And Sansa bringing up the Knights of the Vale was as much in her interest as it was Jon's.

As far as the expedition north of the wall was concerned, both Dany and Tyrion signed off on it and Jorah and the others volunteered to go.

And no one bailed Jon out at the BoW. Some may not like how the battle unfolded but that was a battle of survival for the entire realm and fought by a coalition, many former enemies, who stood around a map and planned out the defenses/strategy.

Jon's has gotten help along his journey many times, but why this bothers some people I don't know. I never even thought about it until it became a major gripe on this thread. Much of that help has come from is siblings/family, sometimes with Jon completely unaware. But is that not a central tenant of the entire series, books and tv? The lone wolf dies while the pack survives? (not asking you, just piling on your post).
smokeythebear
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bangobango said:

Urban Ag said:

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?


Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.
No, the problem isn't Jon getting bailed out, because Jon built his reputation on doing what is right even if the odds aren't in his favor.

Revenge at Craster's Keep: decent odds of winning, well managed attack, won outright
Defend the wall: Horrible odds of winning, well managed battle, got bailed out
Hardhome: Didn't know it was going to be a battle, evacuated a good amount of people, I'd call it a draw
BotB: Decent odds of losing, good strategy that was poorly executed, well written WHY strategy was poorly executed, bailed out by the NotV
Kidnap a wight: Decent odds of success, horrible strategy, poorly executed, bailed out by Dany, more bad strategy, bailed out again by Benjen

The reason people are upset this week is not that Jon was bailed out by someone else (having friends who will help you in a time of need isn't a bad thing: Sansa, Dany, Benjen, Arya). Heck, Tyrion was bailed out in BoBW and Dany was bailed out in the fighting pit battle with the Harpys.

They are upset because there was no logical reason given for the poor strategy (dothraki charge, catapults in front of the trench, etc.) and the need to be bailed out by Arya because, realistically, Jon COULD have had a much better chance of winning, had the writers not purposely neutered him in this fight. Long post to say I think I'm agreeing with you on the last comment that the writers went out of their way to force him to be bailed out in this scenario, unlike in previous scenarios where it was more technically sound reasoning.
jeffdjohnson
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clinker03 said:

I absolutely loved the episode, it had me on the edge of my seat for all 80 minutes. On the rewatch, yes, I noticed the battle tactics were not great, but I agree, it doesn't bother me that much. My three main gripes from the episode were:

(1) Suspect Battle Tactics
(2) Not enough main character deaths, especially when it looked like a lot of those guys should have died
(3) Why didn't Rhaegal and Drogon use fire on the wight dragon when they were fighting?

However, even with these gripes, it was still amazing television. We can sit back and nit pick every little thing (and part of that makes this discussion fun), but my main barometer for the show now is "Am I Entertained?". I was, and it left me counting the minutes until the next episode. Can't want to see what happens.


This is the correct response. I also think this episode will hold up very well especially after we finish watching the final 3 episodes. I think some of the complaints about the fantasy elements being sidelined will prove to be premature. It was an amazing episode of television.
Brian Earl Spilner
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M.C. Swag said:

StringerBell said:

i can kind of see both sides of it

yeah sam went out like a *****, but he's also not the sword wielding kind. he killed the WW because he HAD to to protect his girl. he killed the rapers because he HAD to to protect his girl.

him curing jorah was an intellectual endeavor not a physical one

dude was overmatched and out of his element in the battle and i think it showed. agree his plot line would have been neater and cleaner had he been in the crypt protecting his girl because that's what he does, but they needed everyone out there.
The point is that Sam isn't one to run from the face of danger. Especially when those he cares about are in the face of that danger. It was a complete character regression moment and I wish he hadn't even been there if that's the only narrative purpose he served.

Again, no one is asking for Sam to become a sword wielding badass. Just don't show him regress to the sniveling character YOU showed he already grew from.
Him being out on the front lines in the first place showed that he wasn't running from danger.
ja86
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jeffdjohnson said:

clinker03 said:

I absolutely loved the episode, it had me on the edge of my seat for all 80 minutes. On the rewatch, yes, I noticed the battle tactics were not great, but I agree, it doesn't bother me that much. My three main gripes from the episode were:

(1) Suspect Battle Tactics
(2) Not enough main character deaths, especially when it looked like a lot of those guys should have died
(3) Why didn't Rhaegal and Drogon use fire on the wight dragon when they were fighting?

However, even with these gripes, it was still amazing television. We can sit back and nit pick every little thing (and part of that makes this discussion fun), but my main barometer for the show now is "Am I Entertained?". I was, and it left me counting the minutes until the next episode. Can't want to see what happens.

pretty much what this guy says...

JJxvi
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Bad battle tactics doesnt bother me when its clearly just about being able to have a battle on the screen.

If you give me an epic battle lasting an hour with trenches, and siege engines, and cavalry charges, and castle defense, and its all like "WTF are they doing?" its pretty distracting for me.
MuckRaker96
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bangobango said:

MuckRaker96 said:

bangobango said:

Urban Ag said:

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?


Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.


So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing.. First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation. Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death. Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle. Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead and NK just overran his defense of Hardhomme, so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.
I'm a guy on the Internet who came up with these 3 examples in 30 seconds during my work day. Go Wiki JOn Snow if you need his day to day itenierary from the last 8 seasons.

In all of three examples, Jon uses the tools around him to defeat his enemies. If I kill the Magnar with a bazooka or I kill him with a hammer, I still killed him. I'm the winner and he's the loser.

Where is he supposed to learn military strategy from? Sure, I'm sure Eddard Stark let him sit in on some lessons with Robb, but he grew up a *******, which means you're never going to be commanding troops. His main job in the NW was bringing Mormont hot wine to drink. IN the book, Jon is 14 when he joins the watch. In the show, maybe 18. How realistic is it to expect him to be capable of building military strategies for large-scale battles?
JJxvi
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They would all be learning constantly, just like we were shown that they were all learning constantly to fight. They live in a stronghold, they have a master-at-arms teaching them. We even see Bran getting quizzed on heraldry (ie battlefield standards so you can identify who is on the field) of different families pretty early on in the show by Measter Luwin (although the TV writers seem to forget or never realized this part of medieval combat even though the heraldy is like the most on-brand thing about Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire)

John Snow also would have been being taught not just with the Starks, but he was also in an active military order, where he was the personal steward of the commander.
Urban Ag
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You seem so invested in convincing everyone that Jon Snow's character is lame and GOT sucks that you're now throwing out kind of ridiculous statements to keep beating this horse. We get it. You don't like it. But you're really stretching at this point to make everyone dislike it too.

Quote:

So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing..
Every single military operation Jon has been involved in has two similar components. He was greatly outnumbered and had no choice but to fight anyway.
Castle Black/the Wall - defeated wildlings south of the wall, held them back north of the wall. No one really knows if they would have eventually made it through the wall. Jon made no blunders. Stannis crushing the Wildlings doesn't take away from Jon in the least. Was he supposed to beat 50,000 of them with 300 NW?
Hardhome - diplomatic/evacuation/rescue mission. No blunders. Was he supposed to defeat the army of the dead with what was on hand?
BotB - had no choice but to fight Ramsay against staggering odds. You can call it a bail out, but they could stand and fight or be hunted down and exterminated. They had no where to go.
BoW - not bailed out. Coalition that planned the defenses together.

Quote:

First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation.
So you've hated it since S1. Why are you still here?

Quote:

Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death.
So what? Has nothing to do with anything. He/they beat the wildlings south of the wall.

Quote:

Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle.
So what? The NW couldn't beat 50,000 wildlings. Says nothing about Jon.

Quote:

Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead army overran his defense of Hardhomme,
His defenses? Really? This is his fault? This is just silly at this point.

Quote:

so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.

Again, you're obviously not happy until you're miserable. Ultimately there was no way Jon could win Caste Black/the Wall, Hardhome, or BotB. No one could. He had to fight them anyway. That's the scenarios that GRRM and D&B created. Impossible odds situations. But Jon is a bumbling idiot because he couldn't do the impossible without some help. Ok.
bangobango
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MuckRaker96 said:

bangobango said:

MuckRaker96 said:

bangobango said:

Urban Ag said:

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?


Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.


So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing.. First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation. Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death. Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle. Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead and NK just overran his defense of Hardhomme, so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.
I'm a guy on the Internet who came up with these 3 examples in 30 seconds during my work day. Go Wiki JOn Snow if you need his day to day itenierary from the last 8 seasons.

In all of three examples, Jon uses the tools around him to defeat his enemies. If I kill the Magnar with a bazooka or I kill him with a hammer, I still killed him. I'm the winner and he's the loser.

Where is he supposed to learn military strategy from? Sure, I'm sure Eddard Stark let him sit in on some lessons with Robb, but he grew up a *******, which means you're never going to be commanding troops. His main job in the NW was bringing Mormont hot wine to drink. IN the book, Jon is 14 when he joins the watch. In the show, maybe 18. How realistic is it to expect him to be capable of building military strategies for large-scale battles?


Are you arguing the writers intentionally made him incompetent?
Urban Ag
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He's supposed to be Westerosi version of Alexander The Mother F'n Great or just GTFO here this show is lame!
Tony Franklins Other Shoe
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When Arya was spooking around in the library, did anyone see a tattered scroll copy of Art of War by Sun Tzu? Or was it too dark in there to see it? Sure, some of the team had seen some large battles, but it's like a middle school preparing to play the Patriots.
Phrasing
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All righty- so looking ahead (why dwell too much on the past?) - what pieces are still in play and what do we think will happen? Here's what I've got off the top my my head:

(1) Cersei - does she die and who kills her? Does she claim her baby is Jack Sparrow's - I mean Euron's?
(2) Euron - does Cersei really form an alliance with him or just play him and let him die/kill him?
(3) Clegane Bowl!!! What are the current Vegas odds? I'm putting the Hound at -125. Mountain at +150 and "Other" at Even Money
(4) True Heir to the Throne- does John cede to Dany even knowing his true lineage?
(5) Girl Problems - do Sansa and Dany make amends? I'm guessing no and this is a real problem
(6) Dragons vs Scorpions - do both dragons survive? No clue
(7) One and Done? - Does Arya give it a go with Gendry again or does she ghost him and move on
(8) Dorne- what the hail? Is everyone down there just chilling on their nice beaches waiting for this to be over?
(9) Brotherly Love - do the Lannister bros escape Bronn's Bolts or does Bronn betray Cersei or does Bronn kill one of them? Do either of them get a kill shot on Cersei fulfilling the Valanqar prophecy?
(10) Bran Flake - does he have any purpose going forward or does he just go back to watching Weirwood Pron by his tree?

I'm sure there are more, but my fat sodium infused fingers are tired of typing on my cell after lunch.

Also, these are all assuming that the NK is dead and gone and that storyline is done with. Which it is.
My Dad Earl
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bobinator said:

Luke Smith said:

Any chance that the show twists in these final 3 episodes and makes Bran into something evil?

He has the NK's mark. Maybe that and/or his powers warm and twist his mind and he becomes something worse. OR maybe he still can become the new night king?

Idk maybe I'm just reaching trying to hope something is more interesting than the fight for who sits in a chair
I do think there still has to be some kind of something with Bran in these last few episodes. If all of that stuff about being able to affect the past and all of that doesn't do anything more to the plot than give Hodor an origin story it will be massively disappointing.
A couple things to this Bran plot...

1. When Jon reunites with Bran, Jon says "You're a man now", Bran says "Not anymore". What does that mean?

2. The Night King and his Army represent "Death" in the show. We all know this. Sure, you can tell death "Not Today", which Arya did. But "Death" is always present. Always looming. Does this mean that we still have not seen the end of the Night King? Or maybe a more sinister power (Bran)?

It's a recipe for a plot twist. But if it is anything, they need to play it out quickly since we only have 3 episodes left.....or maybe I'm just getting my hopes up.
FightinTexasAg15
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My Dad Earl said:

bobinator said:

Luke Smith said:

Any chance that the show twists in these final 3 episodes and makes Bran into something evil?

He has the NK's mark. Maybe that and/or his powers warm and twist his mind and he becomes something worse. OR maybe he still can become the new night king?

Idk maybe I'm just reaching trying to hope something is more interesting than the fight for who sits in a chair
I do think there still has to be some kind of something with Bran in these last few episodes. If all of that stuff about being able to affect the past and all of that doesn't do anything more to the plot than give Hodor an origin story it will be massively disappointing.
A couple things to this Bran plot...

1. When Jon reunites with Bran, Jon says "You're a man now", Bran says "Not anymore". What does that mean?

He says "almost" not "not anymore".

He's just implying he's not quite a man, because he's the three eyed raven
My Dad Earl
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FightinTexasAg15 said:

My Dad Earl said:

bobinator said:

Luke Smith said:

Any chance that the show twists in these final 3 episodes and makes Bran into something evil?

He has the NK's mark. Maybe that and/or his powers warm and twist his mind and he becomes something worse. OR maybe he still can become the new night king?

Idk maybe I'm just reaching trying to hope something is more interesting than the fight for who sits in a chair
I do think there still has to be some kind of something with Bran in these last few episodes. If all of that stuff about being able to affect the past and all of that doesn't do anything more to the plot than give Hodor an origin story it will be massively disappointing.
A couple things to this Bran plot...

1. When Jon reunites with Bran, Jon says "You're a man now", Bran says "Not anymore". What does that mean?

He says "almost" not "not anymore".

He's just implying he's not quite a man, because he's the three eyed raven
My apologies...but still, there's a possibility it may have a deeper meaning.
MaroonStain
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I just learned from this page that the British lost the Battle of Dunkirk...
bangobango
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Urban Ag said:

You seem so invested in convincing everyone that Jon Snow's character is lame and GOT sucks that you're now throwing out kind of ridiculous statements to keep beating this horse. We get it. You don't like it. But you're really stretching at this point to make everyone dislike it too.

Quote:

So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing..
Every single military operation Jon has been involved in has two similar components. He was greatly outnumbered and had no choice but to fight anyway.
Castle Black/the Wall - defeated wildlings south of the wall, held them back north of the wall. No one really knows if they would have eventually made it through the wall. Jon made no blunders. Stannis crushing the Wildlings doesn't take away from Jon in the least. Was he supposed to beat 50,000 of them with 300 NW?
Hardhome - diplomatic/evacuation/rescue mission. No blunders. Was he supposed to defeat the army of the dead with what was on hand?
BotB - had no choice but to fight Ramsay against staggering odds. You can call it a bail out, but they could stand and fight or be hunted down and exterminated. They had no where to go.
BoW - not bailed out. Coalition that planned the defenses together.

Quote:

First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation.
So you've hated it since S1. Why are you still here?

Quote:

Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death.
So what? Has nothing to do with anything. He/they beat the wildlings south of the wall.

Quote:

Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle.
So what? The NW couldn't beat 50,000 wildlings. Says nothing about Jon.

Quote:

Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead army overran his defense of Hardhomme,
His defenses? Really? This is his fault? This is just silly at this point.

Quote:

so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.

Again, you're obviously not happy until you're miserable. Ultimately there was no way Jon could win Caste Black/the Wall, Hardhome, or BotB. No one could. He had to fight them anyway. That's the scenarios that GRRM and D&B created. Impossible odds situations. But Jon is a bumbling idiot because he couldn't do the impossible without some help. Ok.
For the life of me I do not understand why some of you take other people not enjoying the show as much as you as some kind of personal affront.

I could be an ******* and say the only reason you like it so much is because you are simple minded and easily entertained, or some equally ridiculous ad hominem attack, but I am just here to discuss tv shows and movies and not really to prove how much better I am than somebody else b/c of whether or not I am happy with what a bunch of people I don't even know decided to do with a fictional character that doesn't even exist.
M.C. Swag
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

M.C. Swag said:

StringerBell said:

i can kind of see both sides of it

yeah sam went out like a *****, but he's also not the sword wielding kind. he killed the WW because he HAD to to protect his girl. he killed the rapers because he HAD to to protect his girl.

him curing jorah was an intellectual endeavor not a physical one

dude was overmatched and out of his element in the battle and i think it showed. agree his plot line would have been neater and cleaner had he been in the crypt protecting his girl because that's what he does, but they needed everyone out there.
The point is that Sam isn't one to run from the face of danger. Especially when those he cares about are in the face of that danger. It was a complete character regression moment and I wish he hadn't even been there if that's the only narrative purpose he served.

Again, no one is asking for Sam to become a sword wielding badass. Just don't show him regress to the sniveling character YOU showed he already grew from.
Him being out on the front lines in the first place showed that he wasn't running from danger.
Yes, I said that in my next post; here.
bobinator
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Fenrir said:

I question how much he can really change the past anyway. If he can really alter it go tell the cotf to stop being *******s with the making a giant murder machine idea.

There has to be some limitation to it. Otherwise this should be over already.
Well... if we want to go down a little rabbit hole here... he can definitely change the past, I'd say relatively significantly with what we saw with Hodor. But, whether he can change the current timeline is unclear. It's not at all clear what kind of time travel rules we're working with here. But using the most common rules...

For a 'Terminator' comparison, in the movie, John Connor sends back Kyle Reese to protect Sarah Connor, and Kyle Reese falls in love with her and becomes John Connor's father. But, there had to be an original, a John Connor Prime, that wasn't Kyle Reese's son. Because if every Kyle Reese that goes back in time is sent by John Connor, there had to be a John Connor before there was a Kyle Reese.

So, from what we've seen, anything Bran has done in the past, he's already done before, at least in this timeline that we're on in the show. Hodor was already Hodor when this Bran was a child, so this isn't 'Bran Prime.'

All of that is a nerd way of saying that this entire show so far could be varying attempts by Bran to 'fix' everything. This could be like version 2, or 200, we don't know, and maybe this is the time he finally fixed everything in the right order. Or, maybe not?
bobinator
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We went through this probably 40 pages ago now, but I still really disagree on your analysis of Sam in this episode. It's only character regression if you're assuming that nobody takes any backwards steps once they take a forward step, but most every character in this show has taken steps to become a better person but stumbled along the way. Sam has become braver, willing to stand up for himself, and he wanted to be out on that battlefield with his brothers, but once it started going down, it wasn't his place. He almost got himself killed and Edd had to save him, which immediately got Edd killed. So maybe Sam figured it was better for the rest of his brothers to do the thing they're good at and fight instead of having to try and keep saving him because he's no good on the front lines.
M.C. Swag
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lol i'm done talking about sam (my last post on the topic: here). I was just pointing Brian to something I already commented about. I have nothing further to add about what they did to Sam.
MuckRaker96
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bangobango said:

MuckRaker96 said:

bangobango said:

MuckRaker96 said:

bangobango said:

Urban Ag said:

What I have learned from this thread is that if the good guys (Starks, mainly Jon) don't win every time then they/he is a terrible commander and always needs someone to bail them/him out.

Of course if they/he won all the time with perfectly planned strategies, I don't think that would make anyone happy either.

Oh yeah. here we go. Perfect, wight army is being lured in....and......yes! Light the first fire trench. Nice. Ok, Unsullied to the quick step, engage, yes, take down each zombie systematically that makes it across the trench. Wait, hold on, they're starting to bunch up and swarm, ARCHERS! TREBUCHES! Ok now, that's slowing them down, dragons side by side up the middle of the battlefield. WOOHOO zombie BBQ. Maximum casualty producing ordinance deployed baby! We got em on the ropes now! Second pass, massive devastation. Ok here we go, as planned, the wights are scattering, getting plenty of space between them and breaking to their left and right flanks.....signal the Cavalry! Booyah! Dorthraki horde running them down on horseback, what a slaughter! Okay bring the dragons back around on the edges of the flanks to keep them pinned in the death corridor, oh they're toast! <Pod high fives Davos, Dany beams back at a smiling Jon, Jamie passionately kisses Brienne> ok, bring up the Knights of the Vail and Wildlings for mop up, Dothraki running down the stragglers. Let's call it a day boys. Irwin F'n Rommel couldn't have planned that better. Oh look there, the NK is flying home with his tail between his legs. NOT TODAY NIGHT KING! NOT TODAY. Ok people, great work, really nice, very crisp. Someone wake Tormund up. Let's take the rest of the day off then get this show on the road for KL. Can anyone say "Clegane Bowl"?


Can you point to a part in the series when Jon won without being bailed out by somebody else? It's kind of been a running joke for a while now. I think most put up with it because the assumption was there would be a payoff at the end, but turns out the show writers don't actually watch the show because they felt Jon had already got to be the hero too many times.

Killed the wights that were out to kill Lord Commander Mormont in Season 1. Had he not done that, the Night's Watch would have been without a Lord Commander and Jon would have never ascended to that position so early on.

Commanded the Night's Watch to a successful defense of the wall when the Wildlings attacked. Then killed the Magnar of Thenn in single combat after that guy was slaughtering the Night's Watch left and right and really had no equal.

Killed a White Walker in single combat and was the first person to make the realization that Valyrian steel could kill them, which sorta turned out to be a big deal last week.


So, you give three examples, all three from season five or before and all three individual encounters rather than military victories, which is what we were discussing.. First example he throws fire on the wight out of desperation. Second example, he is disarmed and getting his ass kicked and lucks into finding a hammer to club the guy with while he is getting strangled to death. Ultimately, Stannis has to come in to save the day and win the battle. Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead and NK just overran his defense of Hardhomme, so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.
I'm a guy on the Internet who came up with these 3 examples in 30 seconds during my work day. Go Wiki JOn Snow if you need his day to day itenierary from the last 8 seasons.

In all of three examples, Jon uses the tools around him to defeat his enemies. If I kill the Magnar with a bazooka or I kill him with a hammer, I still killed him. I'm the winner and he's the loser.

Where is he supposed to learn military strategy from? Sure, I'm sure Eddard Stark let him sit in on some lessons with Robb, but he grew up a *******, which means you're never going to be commanding troops. His main job in the NW was bringing Mormont hot wine to drink. IN the book, Jon is 14 when he joins the watch. In the show, maybe 18. How realistic is it to expect him to be capable of building military strategies for large-scale battles?


Are you arguing the writers intentionally made him incompetent?
No, I'm arguing that you're wrong.
MuckRaker96
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MaroonStain said:

I just learned from this page that the British lost the Battle of Dunkirk...
Blame it on Harry Styles
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