****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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StringerBell
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i dont think jon is incompetent. but i dont think his value is in his military mind.

his value is in his innate goodness, moral compass, background etc. he takes a lickin and keeps on tickin.

he's not positioned to be some sort of military genius.
bobinator
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MuckRaker96 said:

MaroonStain said:

I just learned from this page that the British lost the Battle of Dunkirk...
Blame it on Harry Styles
I mean... they definitely didn't win the Battle of Dunkirk.
Fenrir
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Remind me (since it's been like 4 years) was he able to change past Hodor because he was warging Hodor at the same time as doing his 3er stuff? If so maybe he can only change the past as far back as the person or thing he is warging?
MaroonStain
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bobinator said:

MuckRaker96 said:

MaroonStain said:

I just learned from this page that the British lost the Battle of Dunkirk...
Blame it on Harry Styles
I mean... they definitely didn't win the Battle of Dunkirk.


Was there a Battle of Dunkirk?
bangobango
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Fenrir said:

Remind me (since it's been like 4 years) was he able to change past Hodor because he was warging Hodor at the same time as doing his 3er stuff? If so maybe he can only change the past as far back as the person or thing he is warging?
This all gets a bit dizzying with the time travel stuff, but you are not supposed to be able to Warg into another human being. The only reason Bran is able to do so is b/c Hodor is "simple" minded.

So, to answer your question, yes, the reason Bran is able to change Hodor's past is b/c he is warging with him when it happens. However, we do have a scene at the tower of Joy where Bran yells at Ned and Ned appears to hear something.

I am probably confusing book cannon with show cannon, so take it for what it is worth.
redline248
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Quote:

Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead and NK just overran his defense of Hardhomme, so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.


He wasn't there to mount a defense, he was there to evacuate everyone. Not really fair to call that a lack of military strategy.

I don't get why people blame Jon for Stannis showing up at the wall. As has been repeated over and over, he beat the wildling attack back and forced them to regroup. Strategy only goes so far in the face of overwhelming numbers. No one was going to beat the wildlings permanently in that situation.

Edit: I see I'm way late to this topic. Sorry for repeating what others have said.
Fenrir
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Bran at the tower of joy hasn't happened in books if I recall. GRRM hasn't gotten that far.

Ned noticed but nothing really changed. If warging is required I suspect bran may be done changing the past. I dunno, they've really seemed to leave his greenseeing behind the last 2 seasons.
bobinator
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bangobango said:

Fenrir said:

Remind me (since it's been like 4 years) was he able to change past Hodor because he was warging Hodor at the same time as doing his 3er stuff? If so maybe he can only change the past as far back as the person or thing he is warging?
This all gets a bit dizzying with the time travel stuff, but you are not supposed to be able to Warg into another human being. The only reason Bran is able to do so is b/c Hodor is "simple" minded.

So, to answer your question, yes, the reason Bran is able to change Hodor's past is b/c he is warging with him when it happens. However, we do have a scene at the tower of Joy where Bran yells at Ned and Ned appears to hear something.

I am probably confusing book cannon with show cannon, so take it for what it is worth.
This is partially correct.

Bran is looking in a the past with the three-eyed raven when the army of the dead attacks their location. The 3ER tells him to 'listen to his friend' and then Bran wargs into Hodor in the past, making the current Hodor 'hold the door.'

Doing this affects Hodor's mind in the past, and he never recovers, which is why he only says 'Hodor.'

But, Hodor isn't 'simple' in the past when he wargs into him.

And then yes, we see a scene where he calls out to Ned, and Ned appears to hear him.
bobinator
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I guess if it was a 'battle' is perhaps open to interpretation, perhaps more correctly it was an entrapment.
M.C. Swag
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bangobango said:

Fenrir said:

Remind me (since it's been like 4 years) was he able to change past Hodor because he was warging Hodor at the same time as doing his 3er stuff? If so maybe he can only change the past as far back as the person or thing he is warging?
This all gets a bit dizzying with the time travel stuff, but you are not supposed to be able to Warg into another human being. The only reason Bran is able to do so is b/c Hodor is "simple" minded.

So, to answer your question, yes, the reason Bran is able to change Hodor's past is b/c he is warging with him when it happens. However, we do have a scene at the tower of Joy where Bran yells at Ned and Ned appears to hear something.

I am probably confusing book cannon with show cannon, so take it for what it is worth.
The showrunners kept Bran's 'time altering' ability purposefully vague to keep him flexible narrative wise. As far as the ability to warg into humans, the books do a much better job explaining it. It's very difficult and very dangerous (even for a 'simple' mind, there's the risk of losing yourself to the 'other' conscious'). There's also a line of ethics involved. There may have been wargs who could warg people but simply refused because it's akin to 'Mental Rape.' In either case, warging Hodor was something beyond the known capabilities of Wargs in the show for sure and definitely a f'd up thing for Bran to do.
smokeythebear
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So for example, S8E4 Bran COULD be tempted to go back to S7E5 Jon and tell him not to go north of the wall, thus losing the dragon that tears down the wall. But because he now knows the outcome is positive and that they won, he doesn't do it because he knows killing the Night King is better than leaving him alive north of the wall.

Maybe that's what the old 3ERs have been doing for the last 800 years, just manipulating the timeline to hold the Night King at bay and Bran was just an anomaly that didn't listen well enough to his teacher which resulted in the Night King finally breaking through the wall.
bobinator
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Or maybe having them come through the wall is the only way to finally defeat them?

Like I said, going down that rabbit hole opens quite a few potential wildcard things that could happen.

I kind of like to think that this is the final cycle. That the right series of events have finally happened in the right order that the living win, and that's the timeline we're seeing.
MuckRaker96
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bobinator said:

I guess if it was a 'battle' is perhaps open to interpretation, perhaps more correctly it was an entrapment.
wangus12
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MaroonStain said:

bobinator said:

MuckRaker96 said:

MaroonStain said:

I just learned from this page that the British lost the Battle of Dunkirk...
Blame it on Harry Styles
I mean... they definitely didn't win the Battle of Dunkirk.


Was there a Battle of Dunkirk?
Champ Bailey
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Icecream_Ag said:

redline248 said:

Icecream_Ag said:

bobinator said:

I'm not sure why, but the battle tactics stuff doesn't bother me much.
because we have multiple seasons of everyone using bad tactics and we've come to expect it

I don't think this is true, at all. Maybe I've missed your sarcasm?
mance told jon what was coming and it still took Stannis coming out of nowhere to save his ass.
Stannis tried to siege winterfell in winter
BoB the stark forces were trapped between a wall of dead and a superior force
Dany lost most of her fleet, dorne, and the Tyrells in one move
The wight expedition
Recent battle has been beaten to death


Mance had something like 100,000 wildlings versus 100 NW. He told Jon that that battle didn't matter because he had sent troops down to other gates on the wall. It was just about Jon staying alive, which he did.
smokeythebear
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bobinator said:

Or maybe having them come through the wall is the only way to finally defeat them?

Like I said, going down that rabbit hole opens quite a few potential wildcard things that could happen.

I kind of like to think that this is the final cycle. That the right series of events have finally happened in the right order that the living win, and that's the timeline we're seeing.
Yea, I imagine Bran seeing the dragon tear down the wall and the army marching to Winterfell and he's thinking to himself "why didn't my future self come back and change the events that led to this? Either that means things turn out well for us and I don't want to alter them or that means I die before getting the opportunity to go back". I duno, I suppose there's a good chance that's where he disappeared to during the battle, trying to find an opportune time in the past to alter in order to save himself if need be?

That's a whole heck of a lot of plot armor if that train of thought ends with Bran becoming invincible due to his time travel abilities, so I'm not sure that fully fleshes out.
bangobango
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redline248 said:

Quote:

Third example is the only one I'll give you was cool, but keep in mind a few minutes later he's on a boat retreating because the dead and NK just overran his defense of Hardhomme, so two out of three of your examples are battles that he either loses or would have lost if not for a bailout by a third party.


He wasn't there to mount a defense, he was there to evacuate everyone. Not really fair to call that a lack of military strategy.

I don't get why people blame Jon for Stannis showing up at the wall. As has been repeated over and over, he beat the wildling attack back and forced them to regroup. Strategy only goes so far in the face of overwhelming numbers. No one was going to beat the wildlings permanently in that situation.

Edit: I see I'm way late to this topic. Sorry for repeating what others have said.
Some of this seems to be getting confused so let me clarify.

I think the tactics in the last episode were really, really bad. I said early on, however, that I am over really expecting screen writers to do anything other than write terrible battle sequences and to basically sacrifice all logic or strategy to drama and whatever makes the most striking shot. That being said, I've just said they were bad and mostly just moved on from that aspect.

I think most people would've gotten over the bad tactics and forgiven it if they wouldn't have (in mine and their opinion) screwed up the ending so badly with letting Arya get the kill and having Jon do nothing.

Long before this episode there have been complaints that Jon has never really gotten his big hero moment where he just looks like he either outsmarted somebody or is just such a badass he kicks their ass. Arya had it with the waif, the Freys, Littlefinger, and now the NK. Sansa had it with Littlefinger and the BOTB. Dany has had more of those moments than I can remember at this point (saving expedition beyond the wall, hitting the supply train, burning the tower, locking the traitors in the vault, burning down that hut with all the Dothraki inside it, etc.

Jon's moments are all so much more understated than any of these characters. Tyrion's I guess, too, but Tyrion isn't really playing the role of a military leader or sword fighter. The closest I can think of them really making Jon look like a "hero," somebody that is better than average at something, is when he beats Bolton to a pulp. The rest of the time it really feels like Jon is there to be the foil to somebody else coming in and looking much more heroic.
chase128
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This subreddit cracks me up

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bk4bgy/freefolk_strategists_take_of_the_war_council_of/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
M.C. Swag
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chase128 said:

This subreddit cracks me up

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bk4bgy/freefolk_strategists_take_of_the_war_council_of/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
HEADS UP: /freefolk subreddit is oftentimes the SOURCE of spoiler leaks. They have no rules for leaked plot. Beware clicking around that sub (i personally stay away from it until after a season is over).
bobinator
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We just don't really know. I don't think it's like an 'I can immediately change something and save myself right now' type of thing, but again, it's extremely unclear. I just think it's something that's definitely going to play a part in the next few episodes.

I also think he has to be touching a weirwood tree to access the past, and the furthest one south that we know of (I think) is at Winterfell.
HtownAg92
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Jon was never enlisted in an army, was never a NCO, never an officer, never a general. He spent his childhood in peacetime, when his "dad" wasn't around talking war strategy. He got sent to the wall to serve on a skeleton crew of ragtags, with the closest thing to soldiers being Rangers, who are recon, and he wasn't even one of those.

But somehow he was supposed to be a master battle strategist and the fact that he needed some help to beat a foe that outnumbered him 2 to 10:1 makes him incompetent or a bad leader. How about the fact that he rallied his defeated crews, held his own and then some in battle, and bought time enough to be saved. Every one of those battles he "lost" could have been over way before any help arrived.

Hero moments? He's had plenty:

Saving Mormont
Risking his life to save a stranger south of the wall from wilding murder
Risking his life to double-agent the wildings
Risking his life to parlay with Mance Rayder
Risking his life by not letting Stannis torture Mance
Walking into a nest of Wildings and Thenns and giants to help them escape south of the wall
Running to retrieve dragon glass while getting overrun with the dead
Staying behind to hold off the dead so that the expeditionary force can escape on a dragon
Challenging Ramsey to single combat to save his army
Exposing himself to save his brother
Drawing and holding his ground against a cavalry charge
Entering a fortified castle to take down Ramsey
Boat Sex
Brian Earl Spilner
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Holy *****
Phrasing
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HtownAg92 said:


Boat Sex


Winner.
Sex Panther
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ahhhh damn
Phrasing
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No ***** That's awesome - never noticed that.....
bobinator
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I'm kind of hoping we get a better look at what happened down in the crypts to start the next episode.
bangobango
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chase128 said:

This subreddit cracks me up

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bk4bgy/freefolk_strategists_take_of_the_war_council_of/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


From the responses:

Quote:

Uh oh. Someone just criticized the last episode and I liked it! Hmm..how should I reply...

"It wasn't a bad plan!"

"It was supposed to be a bad plan!"

"It's just a tv show! Who cares!"

"Cavalry is supposed to be used first/in the open/in the dark/suicidally!"

"Get a bigger TV!"

"She trained a few times against a girl with sticks her whole life for this!!"

"iT sUBvErts eXPeCtaTIonS!"

"Get a bigger TV!"

"The people who didn't die still have stuff to do!"

"They WERE main characters in MY heart!"

"It's called Game of THRONES, not Game of Zombies!!!!1"

"Winterfell was too Winterfull for everyone to be inside!!"

"Jon didn't do nothing!! He gave her the sword she didn't use and brought together everyone he didn't get massacred at earlier!!"

"She was distraught so of COURSE she landed in a field of zombies!!"

"______ died because their character arc was complete!!"

"HOW CAN MIRRORS BE REAL IF BLUE EYES!!"

"She didn't teleport, she's batman!!"

"White Walkers don't fight anyway!!"

"but it was badass tho"

"its throat had a hole in it!!!"

"It's supposed to be dark cause it was night time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Whinging.exe

"It's not the show's fault its cause you had la expectcion"

"fookin kneelers"

"The fight wasn't going to last a WEEK anyway!!"

"I love Pirates of the Caribbean so that scene worked!!"

"of COURSE NK wanted to kill Bran, Bran is memory of MAN and without MEMORY OF MAN, man can not remember and that is REAL DEATH #deep"

"How could they know the crypts wouldn't be safe!"

"How could they know _______ wouldn't work!!!"

"Aside from killing children and Rodrick and innocents, Theon IS a good man because he sad and wen he sad i sad"


spence10
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bangobango said:

chase128 said:

This subreddit cracks me up

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bk4bgy/freefolk_strategists_take_of_the_war_council_of/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


From the responses:

Uh oh. Someone just criticized the last episode and I liked it! Hmm..how should I reply...

"It wasn't a bad plan!"

"It was supposed to be a bad plan!"

"It's just a tv show! Who cares!"

"Cavalry is supposed to be used first/in the open/in the dark/suicidally!"

"Get a bigger TV!"

"She trained a few times against a girl with sticks her whole life for this!!"

"iT sUBvErts eXPeCtaTIonS!"

"Get a bigger TV!"

"The people who didn't die still have stuff to do!"

"They WERE main characters in MY heart!"

"It's called Game of THRONES, not Game of Zombies!!!!1"

"Winterfell was too Winterfull for everyone to be inside!!"

"Jon didn't do nothing!! He gave her the sword she didn't use and brought together everyone he didn't get massacred at earlier!!"

"She was distraught so of COURSE she landed in a field of zombies!!"

"______ died because their character arc was complete!!"

"HOW CAN MIRRORS BE REAL IF BLUE EYES!!"

"She didn't teleport, she's batman!!"

"White Walkers don't fight anyway!!"

"but it was badass tho"

"its throat had a hole in it!!!"

"It's supposed to be dark cause it was night time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Whinging.exe

"It's not the show's fault its cause you had la expectcion"

"fookin kneelers"

"The fight wasn't going to last a WEEK anyway!!"

"I love Pirates of the Caribbean so that scene worked!!"

"of COURSE NK wanted to kill Bran, Bran is memory of MAN and without MEMORY OF MAN, man can not remember and that is REAL DEATH #deep"

"How could they know the crypts wouldn't be safe!"

"How could they know _______ wouldn't work!!!"

"Aside from killing children and Rodrick and innocents, Theon IS a good man because he sad and wen he sad i sad"


Can you do my taxes?
M.C. Swag
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Brian Earl Spilner said:



Holy *****
Setting aside the fact that Maester Luwin is not a Stark and would not have been buried in the crypt, why in the world would they go through the trouble of making that zombie outfit and NOT highlighting his attack on Sansa or Arya or Jon?!
The Debt
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MaroonStain said:

I just learned from this page that the British lost the Battle of Dunkirk...

They certainly didnt win it.
bangobango
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M.C. Swag said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:



Holy *****
Setting aside the fact that Maester Luwin is not a Stark and would not have been buried in the crypt, why in the world would they go through the trouble of making that zombie outfit and NOT highlighting his attack on Sansa or Arya or Jon?!


Wouldn't they bury him with his chains?
Chipotlemonger
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Part of me wants to say that their is one at King's Landing too...Sansa went to the gardens to get away and pray, I believe partially because of a weirwood tree. However I could be thinking that up. I read the books too, so it could even be something from that and not the show.
bobinator
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I was trying to remember if we've seen any in the south. It's definitely possible.
spence10
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nm
Marcus Aurelius
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SIAP

How many dragons are left? It is hard to tell if one was killed by Viserion.
Page 235 of 418
 
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