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I actually feel refreshed. I can ramble on to greater places, now.

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Urban Ag said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That's really my only question regarding the WW. How they planned on getting past it, and if the NK foresaw Dany coming and thus planned to get her dragon.

I suppose Bran crossing the wall could've broken the magic that was keeping them out, if there was any in the first place.

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I think the only reasonable answer to this is that the show writers had to get the WW's south of the wall so they had to come up with something. There was no source material and GRRM has not even gotten close to it in the books. Frankly, I think they came up with a pretty good story there. The Wall is supposedly infused with some kind of magic that keeps the WW's from being able to cross it. Dragons are magical creatures. So using a wighted magical creature to break the wall seems plausible (in terms of being part of a fantasy series).

Now I need to go read some Tom Clancy to de-nerd myself.

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Horn of Joramun!

Chase said:

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bobinator said:

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AGnBCS said:

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2. Every Valyrian steel sword we know of was in this battle yet we did not see one fight with any of them against a white walker.

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I actually think has a good reason behind it. The Night King saw at hardhome that the White Walkers were susceptible to valyrian steel swords, so why would he even put them in the field? They don't have like epic fighting skills or anything.

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I think you're right in this regard...why put someone in the field that isn't a serious martial threat if there is the possibility that for each leader that falls, you will reduce your army by 10%.

bobinator said:

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4. Jon could have ended visyrion with one poke of longclaw when he and rhaegal were fighting him in the aerial battle.

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This one is interesting because I admit I hadn't thought of it. But I think there's a decent chance that perhaps Jon didn't think of it either. It's not like he's a seasoned veteran of dragon riding, so maybe he thought he didn't have control enough to draw his sword?

There is also maybe something to the dragon having armored skin. We do see that even the dragonglass and valyrian weapons have to pierce the dead before taking effect, so he'd have had to get a pretty good thrust behind it which would have been difficult.

I think this is an interesting point, but not one that bothers me at all.

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He was holding on for dear life. They need to put some damn saddles on those things.

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I believe the Targs did have saddles and tethered themselves to the dragon as well (if I'm remembering the short story about the Dance of the Dragons correctly).

aTmAg said:

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OldShadeOfBlue said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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I don't think it's an inconsistency, at least not until later on when they're able to fly one over the wall.

I think this is the Night King testing the defenses. He knows they can't cross the wall, but he's seeing if he can reanimate a body on the other side of the wall (and maybe kill a bunch of the Night's Watch in the process).

I don't think it's a big jump to think that he had a WW relatively close by to raise them at night in the castle once they were through the wall.

So I think all of that was actually a decently well thought out plan.

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So that is another thing that is inconsistent. If he can wake up a dead dude onthe other side of the wall when he's miles away, why couldn't he wake up a dragon on the bottom of a pond and have it swim it's own ass up? Why bother with chains at all?

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Wow swimming dragons. How on Earth did they not choose to go that route!?

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Is there an species on Earth that cannot swim? I can't think of any.

Having dragons able to swim just like 99.9999% of animals is much less of a stretch than to have zombies somehow forge boat anchor chains, swim down a 100 feet under water (when earlier in the episode they were unwilling to even step in water), attach the chains to a dead dragon, and pull it up.

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Wild speculation

Plot hole

Using "something the prior poster said in quotation marks" while posing a question to avoid answering a question.





Did I get everything?

Social Media Influencer said:

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I actually feel refreshed. I can ramble on to greater places, now.

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I like Led Zeppelin.

was a nothing burger. So still nothing.

Render said:

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This was a show designed to buck the trends. To pierce the tropes and show us something new. But now it has devolved into a gelatinous blob of disappointment and embarrassment. You have become the very thing you swore to destroy.

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I still enjoy GOT, but I'm not blind to what it has become.
I still enjoy GOT, because it has good spectacle, but I am aware that it lacks the great writing of the earlier seasons.
And because it's missing that great writing, the show has missed an opportunity for objective greatness.
Which is regrettable.
So I completely agree with all his points, but I still enjoy the show, albeit on a very superficial level.

And I used to get very upset about such missed opportunities for greatness, but witnessing the total collapse of GOT, ST, LOTR, and SW these past few years has actually been cathartic for me. The death of those beloved franchises hasn't killed me. I actually feel refreshed. I can ramble on to greater places, now.

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The show has the same writers and they're getting paid more than ever.

So basically you're saying that when they no longer had the source material, including actual conversations they could quote or come close to, things began to unravel for you?

S6 was completely past the books but pretty much everything in play except Winterfell/King in the North was teed up in book 5 so they still had an advantage. And I thought they absolutely nailed it. I do admit that S7 was a step back in terms of both the story and the dialogue. So much of it was very cringe worthy.

That said, I've been pretty happy with this season thus far. I think they stepped it up across the board, then again they had two years to do it.

Render said:

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Quote:

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This was a show designed to buck the trends. To pierce the tropes and show us something new. But now it has devolved into a gelatinous blob of disappointment and embarrassment. You have become the very thing you swore to destroy.

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I still enjoy GOT, but I'm not blind to what it has become.
I still enjoy GOT, because it has good spectacle, but I am aware that it lacks the great writing of the earlier seasons.
And because it's missing that great writing, the show has missed an opportunity for objective greatness.
Which is regrettable.
So I completely agree with all his points, but I still enjoy the show, albeit on a very superficial level.

And I used to get very upset about such missed opportunities for greatness, but witnessing the total collapse of GOT, ST, LOTR, and SW these past few years has actually been cathartic for me. The death of those beloved franchises hasn't killed me. I actually feel refreshed. I can ramble on to greater places, now.

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That youtube clip just assassinated Sapochnik.

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So basically you're saying that when they no longer had the source material, including actual conversations they could quote or come close to, things began to unravel for you?

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I suppose so. When they were adapting from the books, they had all these set pieces to pull from. Basically they had a lot of rich material to whittle down to a TV format. When you take that away, they struggled to figure out where the story was going, let alone how to write scenes.

There's a big difference between adapting and script editing vs. writing from scratch. And I feel in that transition the show lost its two biggest elements: dismantling tropes and the looming WW threat that trivialized the "game of thrones". The video I linked to is very rage-y, but his ending points really hit home the loss of those two elements in GOT.

S1 - 4 solid gold
S5 - 6 hit or miss
S7 - 8 good action but lacking the tightness of 1 - 4

Yeah, not a huge fan of his tone. I can dismiss a lot of the battle logistics stuff because I don't really care about that, but I feel his points about the show losing the "themes" that made it special are on point.

Keep in mind there are really more like 8 episodes' worth of minutes in these 6 episodes.

Urban Ag said:

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was a nothing burger. So still nothing.

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I hope not. It would be much more satisfying for the whole Wall to come tumbling down (and for potentially it's magic to project so far that everyone will know what has happened).

Federale01 said:

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My big question is why the rush job? We kept hearing at the beginning of the year that they were only shooting 6 episodes because they really didn't have the material for a 10 episode season. Now I feel they are rushing the story arc. I could be wrong, maybe the last 3 episodes have more explanation. But I feel they could have spent an episode explain Bran, the Wall, Night King, etc, and it wouldn't have effected the action. Again, still love what is being put on the screen. I just feel they could have tied a lot of lose ends up instead of cramming everything into 6 episodes.

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I heard someone say part of the reason was the actor's contracts were coming up soon and HBO didn't want to renegotiate.

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But I feel they could have spent an episode explain Bran, the Wall, Night King, etc, and it wouldn't have effected the action.

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I agree, but people would complain about that too if it didn't have enough action or move the storyline along fast enough. Message board culture 2019 dictates that millions of people are hardcore literary critics trying to dissect every little element. That builds when we know the story is coming to an end, and thousands - if not millions - of fans have been writing their own theories about the ending for several years now. They were always going to be unsatisfied with any ending.

But there are practical reasons for ripping off the Bandaid. David & David want to do other stuff. Some of the actors probably want to do other stuff and won't always be available to hop a flight to Dublin for random indefinite days of shooting. HBO plans its seasons out far in advance and needs a fixed schedule at some point.

Lots of factors go into the arbitrary end date being May 19.

Render said:

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Yeah, not a huge fan of his tone. I can dismiss a lot of the battle logistics stuff because I don't really care about that, but I feel his points about the show losing the "themes" that made it special are on point.

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Literally everything he said was exactly what I felt watching it. Poor battle tactics and gratuitous bait & switch deaths aside, what they did (or didn't do) with Jon was just mind blowing. They completely hallowed out his arc.

Arya was a "tidy" wrap-up. But I'm not quite there with people who think Jon had to take down the NK. Our little Aegon has needed a ton of magic and timely bailouts throughout the series. I think it's consistent that someone else had to finish this battle.

Social Media Influencer said:

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Arya was a "tidy" wrap-up. But I'm not quite there with people who think Jon had to take down the NK. Our little Aegon has needed a ton of magic and timely bailouts throughout the series. I think it's consistent that someone else had to finish this battle.

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Poor battle tactics and gratuitous bait & switch deaths aside, what they did (or didn't do) with Jon was just mind blowing.

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M.C. Swag said:

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Render said:

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Yeah, not a huge fan of his tone. I can dismiss a lot of the battle logistics stuff because I don't really care about that, but I feel his points about the show losing the "themes" that made it special are on point.

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Literally everything he said was exactly what I felt watching it. Poor battle tactics and gratuitous bait & switch deaths aside, what they did (or didn't do) with Jon was just mind blowing. They completely hallowed out his arc.

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Oh I completely agree with the battle tactics. I don't know that much about tactics, but I did flash back to LOTR and how the Uruk-Hai and Mordor orcs handled the Rohirrim charges. "Pikes in front! Archers behind!" But ultimately, I felt Jon's arc and the WWs being easily dispatched were the biggest sins.

For everyone *****ing about the tactics here's a good article from a military standpoint.

https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/

The Dog Lord said:

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Urban Ag said:

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Brian Earl Spilner said:

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That's really my only question regarding the WW. How they planned on getting past it, and if the NK foresaw Dany coming and thus planned to get her dragon.

I suppose Bran crossing the wall could've broken the magic that was keeping them out, if there was any in the first place.

---

I think the only reasonable answer to this is that the show writers had to get the WW's south of the wall so they had to come up with something. There was no source material and GRRM has not even gotten close to it in the books. Frankly, I think they came up with a pretty good story there. The Wall is supposedly infused with some kind of magic that keeps the WW's from being able to cross it. Dragons are magical creatures. So using a wighted magical creature to break the wall seems plausible (in terms of being part of a fantasy series).

Now I need to go read some Tom Clancy to de-nerd myself.

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Horn of Joramun!

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Yeah that's my bet. One of the Iron born blow it near east watch trying to bring down one of the dragons, and the entire wall comes down.

C@LAg said:

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Render said:

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brilliant

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And yet, despite all that clear evidence, there will still be people who can't grasp the objective failures of the show. They will claim this is all just "h8ing".

It's okay to like something that's flawed. But you at least have to admit it's flawed. If you can't do that, then you're just r*tarded.

JABQ04 said:

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For everyone *****ing about the tactics here's a good article from a military standpoint.

https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/

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Thanks. Seeing this link for the 49th time on this thread either via link or "a friend who read something and emailed me" helps.

Thought it was the 50th. Man I can't keep up with this thread during the day. Crazy amounts of posts.

The Dog Lord said:

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bobinator said:

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Maybe a new topic, but it'll be better than just arguing the same stuff all day (which I've been a part of so I'm not hating on it... just think maybe it's run its course)

Are there any narrative 'loose ends' from the show that we think are going to actually come into play in these last few episodes? From a "pieces on the board" standpoint as the writers like to say, what all do we still have out there that maybe we aren't thinking about?

I know there's any number of magical devices/people/etc out there in the books that we haven't seen in the show, but from just the show, anything out there that could come off the top rope in the last three episodes?

One thing I keep thinking about is that conversation between Tyrion and Bran the night before the battle that we didn't get to see. I'm thinking that conversation is going to matter at some point, but I don't have a good idea on what could have been said.

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Howland MF Reed!!!

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Whatever Dorne is up to, they really only lost Oberyn and the Sand Snakes. They still have their ruler in place, and presumably most of their army.

aTmAg said:

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Charlie Conway said:

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aTmAg said:

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OldShadeOfBlue said:

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At first I thought Arya may have been waiting for the Night King at the Godswood. On my rewatch yesterday I think I found a clear hint that Arya did in fact sneak past the White Walkers. As the Night King is reaching for his sword it shows a close up of a White Walker and you can see something slightly blow his hair by. I think Arya just legit runs through them as they're all facing Bran.

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In Hardhome, the WW don't seem particularly fast (running wise). I can't think of a time that I have ever seen a WW (including the NK) run. So it may not be ridiculous that Arya can run through them from behind before they can react.

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Except in the very first scene of the entire show they are seen running quickly through the woods and moving very fast

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You talking about this:



I don't think those are WW, I think they are just wights. Those are damn fast (faster than living people it seems).

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They are definitely supposed to be Walkers. If you play the video at 0.25 speed, you can see them carrying swords of ice. Looks like from the 1st episode to the next time we see them HBO gave them a makeover.

Bunk Moreland said:

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JABQ04 said:

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For everyone *****ing about the tactics here's a good article from a military standpoint.

https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-winterfell-battle-tactical-analysis/

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Thanks. Seeing this link for the 49th time on this thread either via link or "a friend who read something and emailed me" helps.

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Great read!

redline248 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Charlie Conway said:

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aTmAg said:

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OldShadeOfBlue said:

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At first I thought Arya may have been waiting for the Night King at the Godswood. On my rewatch yesterday I think I found a clear hint that Arya did in fact sneak past the White Walkers. As the Night King is reaching for his sword it shows a close up of a White Walker and you can see something slightly blow his hair by. I think Arya just legit runs through them as they're all facing Bran.

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In Hardhome, the WW don't seem particularly fast (running wise). I can't think of a time that I have ever seen a WW (including the NK) run. So it may not be ridiculous that Arya can run through them from behind before they can react.

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Except in the very first scene of the entire show they are seen running quickly through the woods and moving very fast

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You talking about this:



I don't think those are WW, I think they are just wights. Those are damn fast (faster than living people it seems).

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They are definitely supposed to be Walkers. If you play the video at 0.25 speed, you can see them carrying swords of ice. Looks like from the 1st episode to the next time we see them HBO gave them a makeover.

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I always thought the one that beheaded the Ranger was a WW. I just finished season 1 with wife (first time watching for her) and I think that's what it was supposed to be.

PatAg said:

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The Dog Lord said:

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bobinator said:

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Maybe a new topic, but it'll be better than just arguing the same stuff all day (which I've been a part of so I'm not hating on it... just think maybe it's run its course)

Are there any narrative 'loose ends' from the show that we think are going to actually come into play in these last few episodes? From a "pieces on the board" standpoint as the writers like to say, what all do we still have out there that maybe we aren't thinking about?

I know there's any number of magical devices/people/etc out there in the books that we haven't seen in the show, but from just the show, anything out there that could come off the top rope in the last three episodes?

One thing I keep thinking about is that conversation between Tyrion and Bran the night before the battle that we didn't get to see. I'm thinking that conversation is going to matter at some point, but I don't have a good idea on what could have been said.

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Howland MF Reed!!!

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Whatever Dorne is up to, they really only lost Oberyn and the Sand Snakes. They still have their ruler in place, and presumably most of their army.

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Uhhh, think you might have missed an episode.

Render said:

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Quote:

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This was a show designed to buck the trends. To pierce the tropes and show us something new. But now it has devolved into a gelatinous blob of disappointment and embarrassment. You have become the very thing you swore to destroy.

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That was a true evisceration of the last episode

MuckRaker96 said:

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PatAg said:

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The Dog Lord said:

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bobinator said:

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Maybe a new topic, but it'll be better than just arguing the same stuff all day (which I've been a part of so I'm not hating on it... just think maybe it's run its course)

Are there any narrative 'loose ends' from the show that we think are going to actually come into play in these last few episodes? From a "pieces on the board" standpoint as the writers like to say, what all do we still have out there that maybe we aren't thinking about?

I know there's any number of magical devices/people/etc out there in the books that we haven't seen in the show, but from just the show, anything out there that could come off the top rope in the last three episodes?

One thing I keep thinking about is that conversation between Tyrion and Bran the night before the battle that we didn't get to see. I'm thinking that conversation is going to matter at some point, but I don't have a good idea on what could have been said.

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Howland MF Reed!!!

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Whatever Dorne is up to, they really only lost Oberyn and the Sand Snakes. They still have their ruler in place, and presumably most of their army.

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Uhhh, think you might have missed an episode.

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that was hands down the very worst of the entire series, just f'n terrible