I don't think it's an inconsistency, at least not until later on when they're able to fly one over the wall.

I think this is the Night King testing the defenses. He knows they can't cross the wall, but he's seeing if he can reanimate a body on the other side of the wall (and maybe kill a bunch of the Night's Watch in the process).

I don't think it's a big jump to think that he had a WW relatively close by to raise them at night in the castle once they were through the wall.

So I think all of that was actually a decently well thought out plan.

I really hate this battle because the Battle of the Bastrds was so well done, this just makes me think the writers went stupid. The directors said they wanted ebbs and flows which is why they gave hope with the dothraki then removed it, gave hope with the trench then removed it, gave hope with Jon v NK then removed it.

So let's start from the top:

1. Visibility. Prior to the winds of winter, there was zero visibility to fight at night. No one thought to light the forest on fire like the King Beyond the Wall did. Nor did they throw fireballs into the battlefield to illuminate the enemy.

2. The trebuchets. Who the actual fk puts trebuchets in front of the infantry? Hell put them behind the walls and you can have them flinging fire all fight. But noooooOOOOOooo.

3. Dothraki. (Let's ignore the fact they didnt have dragonglass.) You know the army of the dead has vastly superior numbers why put the unarmored cavalry in front? That's not how you use calvary. That is precisely how you waste your cavalry, you threw a rock at a train. Instead you place them on the south of winterfell, have the enemy engage the infantry and then signal the cavalry to swing around and flank (probably couldn't pinch because you dont know how deep the ranks of the undead are because you didnt light the battlefield).

4. The trench. What the hell is the point of putting dragonglass on the tips of your wood if your plan is to light the wood afire before they get to the barrier? Secondly, why the hell light it, that buys you tens of minutes until the logs burn down. It would have been far more effective leaving an empty trench and having the dragonglass barricade pointed down at anything trying to pull itself up. Once they breach that, light the wood cutting off the breachers from their army.

Also, if your wood was 6 feet off the ground it would take more undead to self-immolate to go over the barrier than like they did and make the top of the barrier at ground level.

5. The walls of winterfell. Look. You have Tormund Giantsbane, he has scaled the northern Wall dozens of times in life. Does anyone consult him on how to best knock climbers off the walls of winterfell? No. There was no measures other than archers to keep the undead off the walls.


The living killed Stannis far too soon.

This post:

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Benjen Stark himself said "The Wall's not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."

Edit to note that this isn't from the book, it's from the show. Season 6, Episode 6.

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Federale01 said:

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I'm not sure he yelled Go or it was intentional. But he was engaged for a few minutes with the dragon. If you look at where the WWs were standing, arya would have had to run through the tunnel past the WWs to make their hair move like it did. She was booking it through the courtyward and tunnel and launched herself before anyone could react. Again, not sure that's how it happened but it's the only way that makes sense to me.

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It's an interesting idea. The hair blowing does imply she ran by sorta fast. And one would have to in order to jump 8 feet in the air like Michael Jordan. And it makes sense that they wouldn't show Arya running behind Jon in the courtyard since that would spoil the surprise.

I have been assuming that the dragon was there merely to keep Jon from being able to go kill the NK. That Arya was already in Godwood waiting for the NK to show up. But then THAT would beg the question.. why did she wait so damn long? Why watch Theon get skewered and then wait for the NK to slowly waltz to Bran, gloat a while, and then reach for his sword? It does make sense that she got there as soon as she could. So... maybe...

bobinator said:

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This post:

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Benjen Stark himself said "The Wall's not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."

Edit to note that this isn't from the book, it's from the show. Season 6, Episode 6.

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Hmmm... so the Benjen Stark thing seemed very stupid to me. Like how he magically showed up just in time to save Jon. So if I had to guess, the wall is just a physical barrier in the book and that the show added the ancient spell thing to justify Benjen staying north the whole damn time. Because otherwise it makes no sense.

bobinator said:

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I don't think it's an inconsistency, at least not until later on when they're able to fly one over the wall.

I think this is the Night King testing the defenses. He knows they can't cross the wall, but he's seeing if he can reanimate a body on the other side of the wall (and maybe kill a bunch of the Night's Watch in the process).

I don't think it's a big jump to think that he had a WW relatively close by to raise them at night in the castle once they were through the wall.

So I think all of that was actually a decently well thought out plan.

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So that is another thing that is inconsistent. If he can wake up a dead dude onthe other side of the wall when he's miles away, why couldn't he wake up a dragon on the bottom of a pond and have it swim it's own ass up? Why bother with chains at all?

There's a difference between touching to create a WW (or WW dragon) and raising the dead to be wights.

Chipotlemonger said:

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There's a difference between touching to create a WW (or WW dragon) and raising the dead to be wights.

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I thought the difference was creating a WW was by touching a living dude (or baby). That if you are dead and are raised, then you are a wight.

They kept the episode dark for reality of war.

Poor planning on living side for better TV quality.

Have some WW fight because it's good TV.

The Dothraki charge is what they do. See earlier battle. They charge in and slaughter people. Flaming, dragon glass coated swords should work for awhile.

Everybody was fodder until the NK comes out.

Arya would have been a great kill in Jon was taking on all of the WW and fighting like a boss!! Or his sword gets light up by Viserion first and then fights.

Arya for the kill isn't what people are upset about.

bobinator said:

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I mean, maybe, but that's not really the argument here. My point is that it's very clearly stated in the show, by an extremely trustworthy source, that the dead can't go past the wall as long as the wall stands.

That's a core reason why I thought their plan to retrieve one in season 7 shouldn't have been possible. Now, they don't know that of course, but it still shouldn't have been possible by the rules laid out in the show.

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But it would still be worth a try, right? Because without Cersei's (false) pledge to halt hostilities against Dani, there is no way Dani would move her armies north. And without Dani's dragons and armies, the north would have been toast. Also, if I remember right, that at the time Dani herself wasn't convinced that it was true. She had just grown to trust Jon more. It wasn't until she saw it all herself that she was 100% on board.

Urban Ag said:

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aTmAg said:

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bobinator said:

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This post:

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Benjen Stark himself said "The Wall's not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."

Edit to note that this isn't from the book, it's from the show. Season 6, Episode 6.

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Hmmm... so the Benjen Stark thing seemed very stupid to me. Like how he magically showed up just in time to save Jon. So if I had to guess, the wall is just a physical barrier in the book and that the show added the ancient spell thing to justify Benjen staying north the whole damn time. Because otherwise it makes no sense.

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No. It is discussed in the books as well. It's discussed in the show. It's not debatable unless you're claiming you know more about it then the people who actually created it.

The has magic built in to it that keeps White Walkers from crossing it. Period.

The was is 700' tall to keep out wights, wildlings, and any of the other bad sh** up there the people south of the wall preferred not to have around, like mammoths, giants, direwolves, lions, etc.

It really is that simple.

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People who created what? You talking GRRM? Or the fictitious people who created the wall?

You're getting "I think this was dumb by the characters" and "I think this was dumb by the people who write this show" confused.

Now, in this particular case, I do think it's both. I do think it was a dumb plan. A much easier plan would have been to try and get someone to go north and show them rather to try and steal a magical being that you know travels in massive packs.

But it's not an unbelievably dumb plan. The unbelievably dumb part is that it worked, because like I said, based on everything we know about the rules of the show, it shouldn't have. That wight should have blown into pieces or something as soon as they crossed the wall. (like they did running into the three eyed raven's cave.)

But that's what I'm saying, sometimes we just have to get over that stuff and move on because it was done to shorten the story. There was nothing really 'on the board' so to speak that could bring down the wall other than a dragon, so this is the best they came up with.

Nothing that happened in this last episode was as bad from a 'what we know about how this world functions' standpoint as that was.

bobinator said:

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AGnBCS said:

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2. Every Valyrian steel sword we know of was in this battle yet we did not see one fight with any of them against a white walker.

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I actually think has a good reason behind it. The Night King saw at hardhome that the White Walkers were susceptible to valyrian steel swords, so why would he even put them in the field? They don't have like epic fighting skills or anything.

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I think you're right in this regard...why put someone in the field that isn't a serious martial threat if there is the possibility that for each leader that falls, you will reduce your army by 10%.

bobinator said:

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Quote:

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4. Jon could have ended visyrion with one poke of longclaw when he and rhaegal were fighting him in the aerial battle.

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This one is interesting because I admit I hadn't thought of it. But I think there's a decent chance that perhaps Jon didn't think of it either. It's not like he's a seasoned veteran of dragon riding, so maybe he thought he didn't have control enough to draw his sword?

There is also maybe something to the dragon having armored skin. We do see that even the dragonglass and valyrian weapons have to pierce the dead before taking effect, so he'd have had to get a pretty good thrust behind it which would have been difficult.

I think this is an interesting point, but not one that bothers me at all.

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He was holding on for dear life. They need to put some damn saddles on those things.

Sansa Stark married Joe Jonas yesterday, I wonder if the ceremony was from the Old Gods or the New.

Maybe valerian steel doesn't work on whites...just dragon glass and fire. And only valerian steel and dragon glass works on White Walkers....but not fire. Kind of a messed up rock paper scissor comparison.

bonfarr said:

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Sansa Stark married Joe Jonas yesterday, I wonder if the ceremony was from the Old Gods or the New.

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I give it a year.

aTmAg said:

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Federale01 said:

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I'm not sure he yelled Go or it was intentional. But he was engaged for a few minutes with the dragon. If you look at where the WWs were standing, arya would have had to run through the tunnel past the WWs to make their hair move like it did. She was booking it through the courtyward and tunnel and launched herself before anyone could react. Again, not sure that's how it happened but it's the only way that makes sense to me.

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It's an interesting idea. The hair blowing does imply she ran by sorta fast. And one would have to in order to jump 8 feet in the air like Michael Jordan. And it makes sense that they wouldn't show Arya running behind Jon in the courtyard since that would spoil the surprise.

I have been assuming that the dragon was there merely to keep Jon from being able to go kill the NK. That Arya was already in Godwood waiting for the NK to show up. But then THAT would beg the question.. why did she wait so damn long? Why watch Theon get skewered and then wait for the NK to slowly waltz to Bran, gloat a while, and then reach for his sword? It does make sense that she got there as soon as she could. So... maybe...

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Because he had to be at the tree to bring to full-circle the dragon-glass knife to the body under the tree that created him?

chipotle said:

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bonfarr said:

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Sansa Stark married Joe Jonas yesterday, I wonder if the ceremony was from the Old Gods or the New.

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I give it a year.

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Yeah she is going to be a huge movie star and realize he is a short guy that used to be a popular musician.

I always kinda wondered if Bran coming south of the wall weakened the wall's magic since Bran was marked. Kinda like how the dead could attack the 3ER bc of Bran's mistake.

And I do remember them saying something how the wall's magic kept the white walkers away

All this speculation and the rest of the season is really just going to be a "Winter's Over!" celebration with Tyrion wine-drunk the whole time...

bobinator said:

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You're getting "I think this was dumb by the characters" and "I think this was dumb by the people who write this show" confused.

Now, in this particular case, I do think it's both. I do think it was a dumb plan. A much easier plan would have been to try and get someone to go north and show them rather to try and steal a magical being that you know travels in massive packs.

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You are not gonna get Cersei to travel north. And you sure as hell aren't going to get her to ride a dragon. The next thing would be to get her hand or some other trusted aid to see in her stead. Of course she wouldn't just hand over a hostage for nothing. She would expect somebody in return. Who would that be? Hand for hand? There is no way Tyrion would volunteer since she'd just kill him and write off her own hand. And I can't think of who else Cersie trusts enough. The mountain doesn't even talk. Maybe something could be figured out, but it's not as easy as it sounds.

Quote:

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But it's not an unbelievably dumb plan. The unbelievably dumb part is that it worked, because like I said, based on everything we know about the rules of the show, it shouldn't have. That wight should have blown into pieces or something as soon as they crossed the wall. (like they did running into the three eyed raven's cave.)

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Many pages back we theorized something that might explain it. That perhaps the reason it worked was because the wight was flown OVER the wall. And that spell doesn't rise to infinity. That would explain why there would be an interest in making it so freaking tall. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense. Just make it a foot tall and let the magic do the real work.

That's what I thought was going to happen. I thought when Bran crossed the wall we might start to see the wall fall apart. Not like all at once, but that clearly the magic that was holding it together has been broken, the army of the dead approaches it, the Night King sends one wight to test it (like the ice on the frozen lake), and it makes it through whatever tunnel/passage/whatever they're at, and then the whole army follows.

That's kind of what I was expecting to happen.

Chase said:

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aTmAg said:

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Federale01 said:

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I'm not sure he yelled Go or it was intentional. But he was engaged for a few minutes with the dragon. If you look at where the WWs were standing, arya would have had to run through the tunnel past the WWs to make their hair move like it did. She was booking it through the courtyward and tunnel and launched herself before anyone could react. Again, not sure that's how it happened but it's the only way that makes sense to me.

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It's an interesting idea. The hair blowing does imply she ran by sorta fast. And one would have to in order to jump 8 feet in the air like Michael Jordan. And it makes sense that they wouldn't show Arya running behind Jon in the courtyard since that would spoil the surprise.

I have been assuming that the dragon was there merely to keep Jon from being able to go kill the NK. That Arya was already in Godwood waiting for the NK to show up. But then THAT would beg the question.. why did she wait so damn long? Why watch Theon get skewered and then wait for the NK to slowly waltz to Bran, gloat a while, and then reach for his sword? It does make sense that she got there as soon as she could. So... maybe...

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Because he had to be at the tree to bring to full-circle the dragon-glass knife to the body under the tree that created him?

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Where is this or mentioned in the show? Since the NK doesn't exist in the books, I assume it's an HBO invention. I heard the producers say it in the "behind the scenes" video, but I don't remember the show saying it.

For some reason I took it to mean that he had to be stabbed in the same place on his body. Which to me makes no sense since Arya was coming in with the knife over her head initially. She only switched to the lower position when he caught that arm.


Also, he was standing there for what seemed like ages. If she was already in godwood it would make no sense for her to wait while he stood there under the tree and gloated for so long.

Chase said:

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aTmAg said:

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Federale01 said:

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I'm not sure he yelled Go or it was intentional. But he was engaged for a few minutes with the dragon. If you look at where the WWs were standing, arya would have had to run through the tunnel past the WWs to make their hair move like it did. She was booking it through the courtyward and tunnel and launched herself before anyone could react. Again, not sure that's how it happened but it's the only way that makes sense to me.

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It's an interesting idea. The hair blowing does imply she ran by sorta fast. And one would have to in order to jump 8 feet in the air like Michael Jordan. And it makes sense that they wouldn't show Arya running behind Jon in the courtyard since that would spoil the surprise.

I have been assuming that the dragon was there merely to keep Jon from being able to go kill the NK. That Arya was already in Godwood waiting for the NK to show up. But then THAT would beg the question.. why did she wait so damn long? Why watch Theon get skewered and then wait for the NK to slowly waltz to Bran, gloat a while, and then reach for his sword? It does make sense that she got there as soon as she could. So... maybe...

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Because he had to be at the tree to bring to full-circle the dragon-glass knife to the body under the tree that created him?

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Ehhhhhhh -- I would applaud the show if this was the case. They never spell it out of any of us that all of this had to happen in a particular order in a particular way. Wasn't there quite a bit of debate seasons back about where the NK was created by CoF? It wasn't like CoF directly told us "oh hey, it happended at the Godswood at WF and he needs to be killed there with this particular dagger". I'm fine if that needed to be the case but damn the show made if awfully hard for viewers to piece it all together and its being led by people on the internet picking up on these subtle clues and hints.

Either this show is for the common HBO viewer that is satisfied with how this went down with little complexity, or there is more magic and lore to the ending they just left out or didn't spell out to us before it happened. If they are trying to play both sides they haven't done it very well. Either tell us this is how it needs to happen before the battle or its all just a coincidence and none of it really matters.

Jaime would have been fine.

But your second thing has no basis in the show at all. It's just wild speculation.

That's what I'm saying is the difference between something mildly absurd like Lady Mormont killing the zombie giant, and this plot hole from last year.

Lady Mormont's killing the wight giant was clearly just a bit of fan service. It was a little silly, but it didn't go against the rules of the show or anything. So I kind of eye-rolled a bit, but it didn't really bother me much.

But Benjen Stark literally said "While it stands, the dead cannot pass." So you've laid down a very specific rule with that statement, and then you break it without explanation. That's the kind of thing that annoys me when shows do it. Building rules, however crazy they may be, into your world and then using and following those rules is the difference between great fantasy/sci-fi shows/books and mediocre ones to me.

Federale01 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Trident 88 said:

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Just read the quote below in an article. Does anyone think this is what happened? I thought Jon just lost it in the courtyard and decided to stand up, yell defiantly at the dragon, and wait for it to burn him alive.

Frankly, this makes more sense.

Quote:

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The latest theory to get tongues wagging is that Jon Snow actually did help to kill the night king. Just before Arya reached the Night King, Snow can be seen coming from behind his shelter to fight Viserion, the undead dragon. Apparently, he screams "Go!," allowing Arya to pass by and do her deed.

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ETA: Sorry if this was already recently posted. I took a break from reading the posts yesterday because they stopped being interesting.

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Jon Snow was nowhere near Arya.

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I posted this back on page 190. Jon was trying to get through the courtyard that led to the Godswood. According to all thr maps of winterfell, there was really only one way to get there. Arya would have had to run through the same courtyard. The dragon was swinging his head around until Jon focused his attention by jumping in front of him. We don't know for sure of course because we don't follow Arya's path like we do Jon's, but its very possible if not likely.

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Except arya is a bit more nimble/agile than Jon is now, so it's more likely she went over a wall or through trees.

Federale01 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Trident 88 said:

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Just read the quote below in an article. Does anyone think this is what happened? I thought Jon just lost it in the courtyard and decided to stand up, yell defiantly at the dragon, and wait for it to burn him alive.

Frankly, this makes more sense.

Quote:

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The latest theory to get tongues wagging is that Jon Snow actually did help to kill the night king. Just before Arya reached the Night King, Snow can be seen coming from behind his shelter to fight Viserion, the undead dragon. Apparently, he screams "Go!," allowing Arya to pass by and do her deed.

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ETA: Sorry if this was already recently posted. I took a break from reading the posts yesterday because they stopped being interesting.

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Jon Snow was nowhere near Arya.

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I posted this back on page 190. Jon was trying to get through the courtyard that led to the Godswood. According to all thr maps of winterfell, there was really only one way to get there. Arya would have had to run through the same courtyard. The dragon was swinging his head around until Jon focused his attention by jumping in front of him. We don't know for sure of course because we don't follow Arya's path like we do Jon's, but its very possible if not likely.

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I see you mentioned that Jon may have distracted the dragon for her back on page 190. It was a good catch/theory, but like you said, we weren't given any hint at all that he got to the courtyard before her.

I'm now convinced that Jon really was yelling, "GOOOOO!!!" to Arya, but the sound wasn't clear enough above the dragon roar and other noise to be sure that he was doing anything but just yelling at the dragon. So, that's the only problem that I have now with this scene. We didn't need to see Arya, but we needed to clearly understand what Jon was yelling.

They shot this so that we would all be surprised by Arya's attack on the NK, and while I agree that the payoff justified this approach, I hope that Jon or Arya will remove any doubt about this theory by acknowledging their teamwork in the next episode.

He also wasn't killed with dragon glass... I'm not sure what y'all are talking about here.

aTmAg said:

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Chase said:

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Because he had to be at the tree to bring to full-circle the dragon-glass knife to the body under the tree that created him?

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Where is this or mentioned in the show? Since the NK doesn't exist in the books, I assume it's an HBO invention. I heard the producers say it in the "behind the scenes" video, but I don't remember the show saying it.

For some reason I took it to mean that he had to be stabbed in the same place on his body. Which to me makes no sense since Arya was coming in with the knife over her head initially. She only switched to the lower position when he caught that arm.


Also, he was standing there for what seemed like ages. If she was already in godwood it would make no sense for her to wait while he stood there under the tree and gloated for so long.

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Bran had a vision in season 6 or 7 showing how the NightKing was created. The symmetry of how he was killed is something I (and many others) have guessed at, not something that was specifically said had to be done.

As for Arya's attempt, the drop to the other hand is the same gambit she used to defeat Brienne in a sword fight a few seasons back so it was definitely a move she considers a go-to.

Ranger222 said:

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Chase said:

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Because he had to be at the tree to bring to full-circle the dragon-glass knife to the body under the tree that created him?

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Ehhhhhhh -- I would applaud the show if this was the case. They never spell it out of any of us that all of this had to happen in a particular order in a particular way. Wasn't there quite a bit of debate seasons back about where the NK was created by CoF? It wasn't like CoF directly told us "oh hey, it happended at the Godswood at WF and he needs to be killed there with this particular dagger". I'm fine if that needed to be the case but damn the show made if awfully hard for viewers to piece it all together and its being led by people on the internet picking up on these subtle clues and hints.

Either this show is for the common HBO viewer that is satisfied with how this went down with little complexity, or there is more magic and lore to the ending they just left out or didn't spell out to us before it happened. If they are trying to play both sides they haven't done it very well. Either tell us this is how it needs to happen before the battle or its all just a coincidence and none of it really matters.

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As I told someone else, the vision Bran received was pretty clear but the idea it HAS TO be done that way is just a guess based on other instances in epic fantasy where a particular time, place or person have to be just so.

I think at it's heart, it's still trying to be epic fantasy but I'm worried the writers having to tell the tale beyond GRRM's works don't have the chops to do it justice. I think that is the biggest reason we're seeing so many people upset about this episode...it just doesn't jive with the way the rest of the series has gone down and much of that appears to be hesitancy to let a main character go. I mean, I cheered when Lady Mormont put the dragon-glass through the giant wight's eye but by their own admission, she should never have been part of the story and they did it because she "deserved a good ending."

My single biggest issue with this episode is the dual deaths of younger girls both held before the big bad guy happening within 30 minutes of each other. That smacks of writers not being creative enough to craft two separate interesting deaths.

We'll see how it wraps up but I certainly don't think a neat little package is something that GRRM would put out so many are sure to not care for what happens.

Has any one seen a still image of the two dragons above the cloud cover? I thought that brief scene was gorgeous and would like to see a still of i but can't find it.

bobinator said:

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Jaime would have been fine.

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She wouldn't have just handed over Jamie to her enemy. They went to war over Tyrion's kidnapping and he's worthless from Tywin's perspective. She would want somebody equally valuable in exchange. The only person I'd think that she'd accept would be Tyrion, and that isn't going to happen.

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But your second thing has no basis in the show at all. It's just wild speculation.

That's what I'm saying is the difference between something mildly absurd like Lady Mormont killing the zombie giant, and this plot hole from last year.

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Your argument is wild speculation too. Perhaps Benjen was wrong (where would he have heard that from? It's not like the dead talk a lot). Perhaps it's a 8000 year old myth that he didn't want to test. All I'm saying is it's not hard to explain away.

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Lady Mormont's killing the wight giant was clearly just a bit of fan service. It was a little silly, but it didn't go against the rules of the show or anything. So I kind of eye-rolled a bit, but it didn't really bother me much.

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Despite me arguing about it a lot, it didn't bother me much either. I still gave the show 4.5 stars out of 5.

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But Benjen Stark literally said "While it stands, the dead cannot pass." So you've laid down a very specific rule with that statement, and then you break it without explanation. That's the kind of thing that annoys me when shows do it. Building rules, however crazy they may be, into your world and then using and following those rules is the difference between great fantasy/sci-fi shows/books and mediocre ones to me.

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I think the Benjen thing is far more questionable than having a wight cross the boundary. How is he half wight (or whatever)? Why is the the only one like that? Why hasn't he approached the wall to tell them where he's been and why he hasn't come back (until Jon needs last minute saving)? How does he know what he knows? To me, that is by far the bigger flaw in the story.