Sine poena nulla lex.

C@LAg said:

---

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

And now my watch has ended.

Started on 1/11, so just under 3 months.

One more week!

---

wrong. 6 days 23 hours and 1 minute of as now.

---

not sure what timezone you're in but it starts at 8pm CT here. So under 6 days 22 hours now (and it would have been 6 days 22 hours 1 minute from your post).

So, Cleganebowl is 99% certain to be happening. (GET HYPE.)

They teased it very strongly in the finale.

Question - Will it be an undead on undead fight, or will Hound still be alive? What will be the circumstances leading up to that fight, and who wins?

I think it's always been sitting up for (real) Hound to get his revenge on the Mountain for years of abuse. I expect nothing less.

GRRM is an underdog writer - Dany, Jon, Tyrion and a lot of the sidekicks too are underdog stories: The Hound, Brienne, Pod, Bronn to some degree, etc. Of course some will die (cuz that's also GRRM) but I expect a resolution of their arc to happen before they do.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

Undead Mountain isn't a wight. He fights for Cersei, so they wouldn't be on the same side.

---

Oh, you mean current mountain vs undead hound. Of course in that situation, the show would be forcing us to root for the mountain against the Hound. That would contradict where the show has been going for the last several seasons. The Hound is the reluctant hero that we are supposed to like, not the other way around.

I think it's more likely (and predictable) that the Mountain gets killed, becomes wight, and is killed by the Hound in a grand duel.

I am assuming that the show continues it's slide into predictability like it had in the final season. Good guys win (for the most part), bad guys lose (for the most part).

Belton Ag said:

---

Quote:

---

I think it's more likely (and predictable) that the Hound gets killed, becomes wight, and is killed by the Hound in a grand duel.

---

And I though I was confused before...

---

Oops.. I meant the mountain.. fixing

aTmAg said:

---

Belton Ag said:

---

Quote:

---

I think it's more likely (and predictable) that the Hound gets killed, becomes wight, and is killed by the Hound in a grand duel.

---

And I though I was confused before...

---

Oops.. I meant the mountain.. fixing

---

I got it, just giving you a hard time.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

---

I think it's always been sitting up for (real) Hound to get his revenge on the Mountain for years of abuse. I expect nothing less.

GRRM is an underdog writer - Dany, Jon, Tyrion and a lot of the sidekicks too are underdog stories: The Hound, Brienne, Pod, Bronn to some degree, etc. Of course some will die (cuz that's also GRRM) but I expect a resolution of their arc to happen before they do.

---

I agree that they've been setting up Hound vs Mountain and it feels like most fans would be disappointed if we didn't get it.

Regarding your next point - why does it matter "cuz that's also GRRM"? Do you think B&W are trying to finish the story like he would or are they taking ownership and giving it their own ending? I tend to think they are taking it their own way.

If we get Clegane bowl, they will both be in their current states. I am not sure, but I don't think the zombies retain any "skill" for fighting. They are just a sheer numbers overwhelm you kind of deal.

Quinn said:

---

Zombie Jon Snow said:

---

I think it's always been sitting up for (real) Hound to get his revenge on the Mountain for years of abuse. I expect nothing less.

GRRM is an underdog writer - Dany, Jon, Tyrion and a lot of the sidekicks too are underdog stories: The Hound, Brienne, Pod, Bronn to some degree, etc. Of course some will die (cuz that's also GRRM) but I expect a resolution of their arc to happen before they do.

---

I agree that they've been setting up Hound vs Mountain and it feels like most fans would be disappointed if we didn't get it.

Regarding your next point - why does it matter "cuz that's also GRRM"? Do you think B&W are trying to finish the story like he would or are they taking ownership and giving it their own ending? I tend to think they are taking it their own way.

---

I think he set it up that way - and while they may be taking many liberties I still believe the overall arc of most main characters is true to his vision and direction. and in the case of something like the Hound it is just too deeply rooted for writers to take it in any other direction.

Hodor for example - we had zero indication of that from the books - but the writers stayed true to GRRMs intention for that character. GRRM says the name is the same origin but different context of the reveal (still "hold the door" but not for the escape from the wights). Something they did not have to do - but it had a great payoff. In the grand scheme of things Hodor's storyline did not mean much (except that he held the door). The show writers devoted a lot of time to that character and episode for him.

I just don't think you can NOT have The Hound v The Mountain given the buildup we have had. And that's still from GRRM. Different writers but parts of the story have a necessary will of their own that writers cannot avoid. imho.

What about this:

Jamie kills Cersie, the Mountain kills Jamie. The Hound kills the Mountain, who gets killed and turns wight. Arya kills the hound in an ironic completion of her kill list.

Well, I just lost my entire post, so here goes again.

Do you guys think GRRM will go a different direction as far as how he brings down the Wall?

B&W said that they knew from pretty early on that a dragon would bring it down. (In the show.)

Has there been any hints in the books that this is what GRRM is planning, or do y'all think it will be completely different?

I know there used to be theories that some sort of magic is holding up the wall, and Bran crossing the Wall (after being marked by the NK) would break the spell. Maybe this is what GRRM is doing?

They kind of put it on the nose when Sandor walked up to Zombie-Gregor at the Dragon Pit Summit and told him as much, "Is that you in there? Do you remember me? You know what's coming for you and has been for some time, ... 'brother'..."

That's what I meant by strongly teasing it.

I'm sure the walkers had a plan to get past it (no idea what it could be), but the dragon was obviously an easy plot device that requires no explanation

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

Interesting.

Personally, I don't love the idea of a "magic item" like a horn bringing it down, but then again, as cool as it was to see a dragon bring it down, I didn't love that either.

It essentially made it so that our heroes were the reason they were able to attack Winterfell in the first place. The Wall had stood for generations, and there wasn't any huge reason to think the Wall couldn't stop them this time.

Which is ironic to think about, in hindsight. Tyrion tells her "sometimes doing nothing is the hardest thing to do", when she has to go rescue everyone.

In this case, doing nothing would have meant the death of everyone who ventured beyond the wall, but it also ensured the Army of the Dead would never cross.

---

Couldn't they have just gone in through that gate? That seemed like a big weakness. A sort of a flaw in the story, IMO.

The wildlings almost made it through the gate, but the undead probably succeed bc of the sheer numbers. It would cost them a lot, and the night's watch probably just drops fire all over them.

Then again, there are numerous unmanned gates that the walkers never went through. Which probably means there was magic holding them out. The books certainly talk about it (Coldhands can't go through).

redline248 said:

---

The wildlings almost made it through the gate, but the undead probably succeed bc of the sheer numbers. It would cost them a lot, and the night's watch probably just drops fire all over them.

Then again, there are numerous unmanned gates that the walkers never went through. Which probably means there was magic holding them out. The books certainly talk about it (Coldhands can't go through).

---

I guess that is magic that is no match for a dragon.

Makes sense

aTmAg said:

---

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

Interesting.

Personally, I don't love the idea of a "magic item" like a horn bringing it down, but then again, as cool as it was to see a dragon bring it down, I didn't love that either.

It essentially made it so that our heroes were the reason they were able to attack Winterfell in the first place. The Wall had stood for generations, and there wasn't any huge reason to think the Wall couldn't stop them this time.

Which is ironic to think about, in hindsight. Tyrion tells her "sometimes doing nothing is the hardest thing to do", when she has to go rescue everyone.

In this case, doing nothing would have meant the death of everyone who ventured beyond the wall, but it also ensured the Army of the Dead would never cross.

---

Couldn't they have just gone in through that gate? That seemed like a big weakness. A sort of a flaw in the story, IMO.

---

"They" = Army of the Dead?

I don't think so:

Quote:

---

"The Wall's not just ice and stone," Benjen told Bran and Meera. "Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."

---

It's almost time people. Try and not get killed.

aTmAg said:

---

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

Interesting.

Personally, I don't love the idea of a "magic item" like a horn bringing it down, but then again, as cool as it was to see a dragon bring it down, I didn't love that either.

It essentially made it so that our heroes were the reason they were able to attack Winterfell in the first place. The Wall had stood for generations, and there wasn't any huge reason to think the Wall couldn't stop them this time.

Which is ironic to think about, in hindsight. Tyrion tells her "sometimes doing nothing is the hardest thing to do", when she has to go rescue everyone.

In this case, doing nothing would have meant the death of everyone who ventured beyond the wall, but it also ensured the Army of the Dead would never cross.

---

Couldn't they have just gone in through that gate? That seemed like a big weakness. A sort of a flaw in the story, IMO.

---

I mean, the gate isn't all that wide. All they would've needed is to light that tunnel on fire and none of the wights can come through.

Episode IV said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Brian Earl Spilner said:

---

Interesting.

Personally, I don't love the idea of a "magic item" like a horn bringing it down, but then again, as cool as it was to see a dragon bring it down, I didn't love that either.

It essentially made it so that our heroes were the reason they were able to attack Winterfell in the first place. The Wall had stood for generations, and there wasn't any huge reason to think the Wall couldn't stop them this time.

Which is ironic to think about, in hindsight. Tyrion tells her "sometimes doing nothing is the hardest thing to do", when she has to go rescue everyone.

In this case, doing nothing would have meant the death of everyone who ventured beyond the wall, but it also ensured the Army of the Dead would never cross.

---

Couldn't they have just gone in through that gate? That seemed like a big weakness. A sort of a flaw in the story, IMO.

---

"They" = Army of the Dead?

I don't think so:

Quote:

---

"The Wall's not just ice and stone," Benjen told Bran and Meera. "Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass."

---

---

Was it known info that a dragon could bring the wall down?