****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

wannaggie
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Fenrir said:

Since when has Tyrion been the projection of Martin I to the story?
Since the 3000 pages where the author treats all of Tyrion's passages and thoughts as the most fully realized and sympathetic out of all the characters.

Again, I'm talking about the writing of the character. It's very obvious from the way the narrative voice gives him the microphone and a platform to stand on, that the author feels and personalizes more of Tyrion than anyone else. He's given the most complex layers, he's given the widest spectrum of possibility -- is he just a drunken sex addict? Is he an evil scheming Lannister? Is he a kind-hearted man who cares about the weak and innocent because he knows what it's like to be persecuted? Is he out for Truth, Justice, and the Westerosi way? Does he want to save King's Landing because he loves the city for its marvels and delights? Is he a masterful genuis unparalleled in the entire Western world? Is he a decadent hedonistic coward and a weakling, or is he actually quite brave and willing to pick up a sword and fight to defend his side? Is he a lover, or is he a *****-murderer?

There are lots of Evil characters in the books, and there are no Good characters in the books, Tyrion by far goes the longest way into the story with the reader unsure of where exactly he will end up in the end.

TV Sam is pretty close to character of Book Sam. He's there to give Jon a sidekick and help the reader find out The Mechanism For How Things Work in White Walkerlandia, but as a written character he's pretty vanilla soy latte.
Old Tom Morris
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Quote:

Or they could've had her talk about her plans to kill a lot more innocent people, or to kill his sisters, or something.
I thought having her specifically call out Winterfell in her Hitler speech was an excellent move. Although at that point, I was more bothered by the fact Jon even needed much convincing by Tyrion
Zombie Jon Snow
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bonfarr said:

bangobango said:

Quad Dog said:

I for one think that Jon solving everything with a magic, deus ex machina, sword would have been pretty lame too.

Some of you think every time there is a last minute save that it is Deus Ex Machina. That terms is supposed to be reserved for situations when the save is not earned or foreshadowed, where it literally comes out of nowhere to save the heroes. If the Lord of Light suddenly appeared on the battle field and laid waste to all the undead, then that would be a rather on-point example of Deus Ex Machina in GOT.

If you spend seven seasons foreshadowing a powerful weapon that can help the characters fight off the dead, however, and you outline the steps that have to be completed to invoke that weapon, and then the characters do those steps and find that powerful weapon and that powerful weapon helps the characters actually fight off the dead, that's called good writing, not Deus Ex Machina.

Do you think the a-bomb was Deus Ex Machina for WWII?


Correct, think Captain Marvel in Endgame for an example of Deus Ex Machina.

Not really - she wasn't the reason they defeated Thanos.

I was worried they would do that but they didn't. All she did was the one girl power moment and even there he tossed her like a ragdoll.

Unless you mean how she saved Tony - then yes it was a bit of one for that moment.

annie88
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Old Tom Morris said:

I think the books will end very closely if not identically to this, but that the path to get there will be quite a bit different.
Will be interesting. I've never read the books, just watched the show. Think I'll go back and do that. A former co-worker who got me into the show a few years ago said the books have a lot more detail and he would go into all these back stories on all the different houses it was quite interesting.

I binged watched 50 episodes of it in 13 days before these season six. I think reading the books will be awesome.
La Bamba
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swc93 said:

I guess none of Varys's letters actually went out; otherwise everyone on the Jedi Counsel at the end would have been declaring for John.
Why does this matter? Everyone at the table who mattered already knew the truth about Jon. And they still traded him to the North to please effing Greyworm......

Greyworm.......
Old Tom Morris
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back stories on all the different houses it was quite interesting.
Some interesting. Some meandering garbage. As I've mentioned before, while people are mostly obsessing negatively about how D&D landed the ending, they should still get a ton of praise for how well they filtered the material they did have in the earlier seasons. Very well thought out and effective in the great stuff they pulled in - down to dialogue - vs. what they chose to ditch.
Fenrir
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I disagree with the idea that a character being fleshed out and complicated means the author is projecting themselves into the story like you're claiming.

I don't think it matter to discuss it anymore either way.
Bryan98
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Sex Panther said:

pagerman @ work said:

I didn't mind the episode honestly. I had a few issues (like why anyone cared what the Unsullied and Grey Worm thought about anything), but one puzzling thing that just rang hollow to me was why in God's name anyone would ever make Bron the master of coin?

It was just fan service because he was a fan favorite. Although I love that Bronn ended up one of the biggest winners of all. He went from a complete nobody mercenary to the Lord of ****ing Highgarden and Master of Coin.
Chaos is a ladder.
"Texas - It's still America down here!"
bangobango
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Old Tom Morris said:

Quote:

Or they could've had her talk about her plans to kill a lot more innocent people, or to kill his sisters, or something.
I thought having her specifically call out Winterfell in her Hitler speech was an excellent move. Although at that point, I was more bothered by the fact Jon even needed much convincing by Tyrion
Yeah, but Jon shouldn't have been able to understand anything other than Winterfell in that speech, since he doesn't speak the language she was talking in at that time.
Ban Cow Gas
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That was beyond a messy ending for the show, but I have to say that Emilia Clarke is pretty good at playing a villain. I thought her acting was hit and miss throughout the series, but she nailed it on the last couple of episodes IMO.
Brock Sampson
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Bryan98 said:

Sex Panther said:

pagerman @ work said:

I didn't mind the episode honestly. I had a few issues (like why anyone cared what the Unsullied and Grey Worm thought about anything), but one puzzling thing that just rang hollow to me was why in God's name anyone would ever make Bron the master of coin?

It was just fan service because he was a fan favorite. Although I love that Bronn ended up one of the biggest winners of all. He went from a complete nobody mercenary to the Lord of ****ing Highgarden and Master of Coin.
Chaos is a ladder.


Then why is Bran king!?

Chaos is a handicap accessible lift
Tobias Funke
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Oh cool, an Endgame spoiler in a GOT thread. Thanks fellas
bobinator
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Endgame came out like a month ago, we've got to be beyond the statute of limitations on a spoiler there.
Tobias Funke
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(I've seen like 3 movies total in that series)
Sex Panther
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Tobias Funke said:

Oh cool, an Endgame spoiler in a GOT thread. Thanks fellas

It came out almost a month ago and has made 2.6 billion dollars. You're on your own at this point.
Social Media Influencer
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Tobias Funke said:

Oh cool, an Endgame spoiler in a GOT thread. Thanks fellas
So I guess you don't want me to explain how Arya is about to find out that Westeros is a lot like The Village?

Or how Tyrion is kind of like Leo's character in Shutter Island?

Urban Ag
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Fenrir said:

I disagree with the idea that a character being fleshed out and complicated means the author is projecting themselves into the story like you're claiming.

I don't think it matter to discuss it anymore either way.
No.

It's actually true.

In late 2011, GRRM was promoting a Dance with Dragons on his book tour in Europe. He did a session a public library somewhere in Germany with both fans and reporters and took questions from both.

A fan actually asked him which character he saw the most of himself in and GRRM basically laughed and told the fan that he knew exactly who it was but thanks for asking. He went to talk about his childhood in New Jersey, the family never having enough money and how isolated he felt rarely traveling outside the confined his local community. He lamented that he wasn't much more physically attractive a young man than he is now and found his escape in comic books, horror, and scifi. He was a geek and didn't try to be anything else and he was picked on by other teen boys. He came to resent if not hate the athletic, good looking, guys that always seemed to have everything go their way and got the best looking girls and just the whole way teenage society worked in America.

Said writing Tyrion was the easiest for him but writing Theon, Jon, Jamie, and Rob was the most fun because through those characters he exacted revenge on the boys that made fun of him. He would make them suffer and take their amazing lives and ruin them. Alpha males losing the abilities and looks and "other things" that made them the men they were. And Jon of course would never find any real joy in his life.

So there is some basis for the whole argument.




















/yeah, I totally just made that up
Teddy Perkins
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bangobango said:

Old Tom Morris said:

Quote:

Or they could've had her talk about her plans to kill a lot more innocent people, or to kill his sisters, or something.
I thought having her specifically call out Winterfell in her Hitler speech was an excellent move. Although at that point, I was more bothered by the fact Jon even needed much convincing by Tyrion
Yeah, but Jon shouldn't have been able to understand anything other than Winterfell in that speech, since he doesn't speak the language she was talking in at that time.
Ranger222
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Zombie Jon Snow said:


imho....

they should have just had Jon escape the city after and we don't know where he is. i mean there was nobody there anyway.

he was no part of the council meetings anyway. Just have them all say they haven't seen him and GW says he was the last one seen entering before the Queen was found dead. they know it was him but don't know where he is.

It makes sense Tyrion was held - and Grey Worm kind of follows orders and had nobody to tell him what to do with Tyrion. Then have Bran appoint Tyrion as he did much to Grey Worms chagrin. And the Unsullied and Dothraki decide to leave.

then have a final scene with Jon showing up at the wall, greeting Tormund on his own and they set off for the far north.

no Nights Watch stuff which does not make sense at this point anyway. Have it be on jon's own accord. He doesn't want to rule anything anyway.



I like it. You could even have the whereabouts of Dany questioned -- no one knows that she was killed since there wasn't a body after drogon took her (of course there was blood on the ground but they could have done away with that).... I thought it was a little weird everyone knew the exact details of Dany's death even though the body was gone and there were no witnesses. I guess Jon squealed to everyone about it.

Maybe people would think Jon and Dany rode off together to spend "1000 years" together like they wanted to in episode 1 at the cave after the dragon ride. Only Jon would have known what truly happened -- and Tyrion I suppose would have his doubts. Imagine the book given to Tyrion at the end being a love story about Jon and Dany, defeating Cersei and freeing KL and then just riding off together, leaving everyone behind. That would kind of been interesting as well, especially if the story is told as a lesson not to abuse power or else Dany, Jon and Drogon might return to set things straight.
bangobango
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Teddy Perkins said:

bangobango said:

Old Tom Morris said:

Quote:

Or they could've had her talk about her plans to kill a lot more innocent people, or to kill his sisters, or something.
I thought having her specifically call out Winterfell in her Hitler speech was an excellent move. Although at that point, I was more bothered by the fact Jon even needed much convincing by Tyrion
Yeah, but Jon shouldn't have been able to understand anything other than Winterfell in that speech, since he doesn't speak the language she was talking in at that time.

BusterAg
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Sarduakar said:

bangobango said:

Do you think the a-bomb was Deus Ex Machina for WWII?
It kind of was from the Japanese point of view.


I love this.
InternetFan02
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Jon didn't want the throne

Jon *wanted* to go back north more than anything

Jon recognizes that the Targaryen seed is dangerous and is content to never take a wife and never produce any Targaryen heirs

The show did a ****ty job with this - he should have chosen this path with conviction
benchmark
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wannaggie said:

benchmark said:

wannaggie said:

benchmark said:

Fenrir said:

I don't know, Tyrion being excluded from Sam's book for reasons unknown was pretty unintentionally funny as well. I'm not sure there is a single individual that made more of an impact on the war of the 5 Kings as Tyrion. It makes zero sense to exclude him.
Especially since his speech helped decide the new King! Tyrion probably was in more scenes over the course of the series than any other actor...just bizarre.
Every author eventually falls prey to the vanity of writing themselves into their work.
Tyrion has clearly been the GRRM avatar in this story.
Hmm. Not buying it. Sam and Bran are supposed to be keepers of the history and records. It makes no sense for the one who is in charge of recording events to purposefully leave out an influential person. I could see Cersei pulling a stunt like that because she hated Tyrion, but not Sam.
That's why Tyrion gets left out of "A Song Of Ice And Fire" -- it's an authorial joke (or unintentional psychological slip).

Tyrion, the character, is the most prolific character in the GRRM books, because in the first half of the story he's Living The Dream of every mom's-basement fantasy nerd -- the Imp is the childish Id of the Comic Bookstore Guy -- yeah he's physically unattractive, can't throw a spiral, probably would be out of breath walking up some stairs, but he's learned to accept being an outcast and spend his time whoring and drinking and being a Party Animal. He's a lothario, he's got Game with the ladies, and whenever he doesn't have Game, he's big ballin with cash yo. He's also super smart and witty and like tooootally way smarter than everyone else around him.

Does that seem clearer?

So it's the writers' joke that Tyrion, the character who is the projection of GRRM, original author, is all over the 21st century books "A Song Of Ice And Fire", but he gets completely left out of the fictional "Song Of Ice And Fire" inside the story, because inside the story he's just another character, not the author.
Oh, I understood what you said. I just think the writers made a poor choice in that scene. It doesn't fit the character. Whether it was intentional or not, doesn't really matter to me. I just thought it absurd. Like if they wrote that Bran could really walk, just to surprise us, so they could say they delivered on an unexpected surprise ending....
MuckRaker96
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InternetFan02 said:

Jon didn't want the throne

Jon *wanted* to go back north more than anything

Jon recognizes that the Targaryen seed is dangerous and is content to never take a wife and never produce any Targaryen heirs

The show did a ****ty job with this - he should have chosen this path with conviction
He really should have nailed Dany before he killed her. Think how many wildling women you could impress by telling them how you banged the Queen on the Iron Throne and then killed her. That's like as much street cred as being a jonas brother
MuckRaker96
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Lords of Westeros at the Beginning of Season 1 and End of Season 8
Are the people of Westeros better off now or then?

King on the Throne Season 1: Robert Baratheon; Season 8 : Bran Stark
Dorne: Season 1: Doran Martell; Season 8: Not sure, looked like an extra from Aladdin
Highgarden: Season 1: Mace Tyrell; SEason 8: Ser Bronn of the ****ing Blackwater
Casterly Rock: Season 1: Tywin Lannister; Season 8: Tyrion Lannister
WInterfell: Season 1: Eddard Stark; Season 8; Queen Sansa Stark
The Vale: Season 1: Lysa Arryn; Season 8: Sweet Robin Arryn
The Iron Islands: Season 1: Balon Greyjoy; Season 8: Yara (Asha) Greyjoy
Storm's End: Season 1: Renly Baratheon; Season 8: Gendry Baratheon
Humorous Username
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MuckRaker96 said:

Lords of Westeros at the Beginning of Season 1 and End of Season 8
Are the people of Westeros better off now or then?

King on the Throne Season 1: Robert Baratheon; Season 8 : Bran Stark
Yes
Dorne: Season 1: Doran Martell; Season 8: Not sure, looked like an extra from Aladdin
Push
Highgarden: Season 1: Mace Tyrell; SEason 8: Ser Bronn of the ****ing Blackwater
Yes. So. Many. Brothels.
Casterly Rock: Season 1: Tywin Lannister; Season 8: Tyrion Lannister
Yes
WInterfell: Season 1: Eddard Stark; Season 8; Queen Sansa Stark
No.
The Vale: Season 1: Lysa Arryn; Season 8: Sweet Robin Arryn
Yes
The Iron Islands: Season 1: Balon Greyjoy; Season 8: Yara (Asha) Greyjoy
Yes
Storm's End: Season 1: Renly Baratheon; Season 8: Gendry Baratheon
Push
combat wombat™
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While I was satisfied with the ending, I was REALLY annoyed that they put up with Grey Worm's crap. WTF did he think he was? He wasn't "the boss of" anything.

Sansa needs an heir.




Humorous Username
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Social Media Influencer said:

Tobias Funke said:

Oh cool, an Endgame spoiler in a GOT thread. Thanks fellas
So I guess you don't want me to explain how Arya is about to find out that Westeros is a lot like The Village?

Or how Tyrion is kind of like Leo's character in Shutter Island?




WRONG!

We all know that Westeros was one of the versions of the Matrix that the machines were beta testing.
Humorous Username
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combat wombat said:

While I was satisfied with the ending, I was REALLY annoyed that they put up with Grey Worm's crap. WTF did he think he was? He wasn't "the boss of" anything.

Sansa needs an heir.







Sansa will do what House Lannister did at one point: force her husband to take her last name to preserve the house name.
bangobango
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MuckRaker96 said:

Lords of Westeros at the Beginning of Season 1 and End of Season 8
Are the people of Westeros better off now or then?

King on the Throne Season 1: Robert Baratheon; Season 8 : Bran Stark
Dorne: Season 1: Doran Martell; Season 8: Not sure, looked like an extra from Aladdin
Highgarden: Season 1: Mace Tyrell; SEason 8: Ser Bronn of the ****ing Blackwater
Casterly Rock: Season 1: Tywin Lannister; Season 8: Tyrion Lannister
WInterfell: Season 1: Eddard Stark; Season 8; Queen Sansa Stark
The Vale: Season 1: Lysa Arryn; Season 8: Sweet Robin Arryn
The Iron Islands: Season 1: Balon Greyjoy; Season 8: Yara (Asha) Greyjoy
Storm's End: Season 1: Renly Baratheon; Season 8: Gendry Baratheon
I'm dumb.
The Dog Lord
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Orlando Ayala Cant Read said:

I think at the end of it all it maybe even post credits they coulda had Dany lying somewhere in the snow and all the sudden she opens her eyes with lit eyes (blue or red) and then gone to black. That woulda been an ending people found more satisfying. Also leaves door open for this show to try again.

That would have been WAY worse IMO. I can't stand "non-ending" endings. I already want to know where Drogon will go, if Arya finds anything, how Sansa deals with succession in the North, whether the new system will stick (or for long), will Nymeria's wolf army be a major problem for the riverlands, will someone actually marry Robin Arryn, etc. I can't imagine not knowing what happens when a main character comes back to life at the very end.
The Dog Lord
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bangobango said:

MuckRaker96 said:

Lords of Westeros at the Beginning of Season 1 and End of Season 8
Are the people of Westeros better off now or then?

King on the Throne Season 1: Robert Baratheon; Season 8 : Bran Stark
Dorne: Season 1: Doran Martell; Season 8: Not sure, looked like an extra from Aladdin
Highgarden: Season 1: Mace Tyrell; SEason 8: Ser Bronn of the ****ing Blackwater
Casterly Rock: Season 1: Tywin Lannister; Season 8: Tyrion Lannister
WInterfell: Season 1: Eddard Stark; Season 8; Queen Sansa Stark
The Vale: Season 1: Lysa Arryn; Season 8: Sweet Robin Arryn
The Iron Islands: Season 1: Balon Greyjoy; Season 8: Yara (Asha) Greyjoy
Storm's End: Season 1: Renly Baratheon; Season 8: Gendry Baratheon
Stannis was the lord at Storms End.

Nope. It was Renly. Stannis always felt slighted for not getting Storms End after defending it to the point of starvation. Stannis ruled Dragonstone.
bangobango
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The Dog Lord said:

bangobango said:

MuckRaker96 said:

Lords of Westeros at the Beginning of Season 1 and End of Season 8
Are the people of Westeros better off now or then?

King on the Throne Season 1: Robert Baratheon; Season 8 : Bran Stark
Dorne: Season 1: Doran Martell; Season 8: Not sure, looked like an extra from Aladdin
Highgarden: Season 1: Mace Tyrell; SEason 8: Ser Bronn of the ****ing Blackwater
Casterly Rock: Season 1: Tywin Lannister; Season 8: Tyrion Lannister
WInterfell: Season 1: Eddard Stark; Season 8; Queen Sansa Stark
The Vale: Season 1: Lysa Arryn; Season 8: Sweet Robin Arryn
The Iron Islands: Season 1: Balon Greyjoy; Season 8: Yara (Asha) Greyjoy
Storm's End: Season 1: Renly Baratheon; Season 8: Gendry Baratheon
Stannis was the lord at Storms End.

Nope. It was Renly. Stannis always felt slighted for not getting Storms End after defending it to the point of starvation. Stannis ruled Dragonstone.
You're right, I'm wrong.

You're smart. I am dumb.

You're attractive, I'm not attractive.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Stannis was Lord of Dragonstone.

Robert gave Storm's End to Renly, which was always a major point of contention for Stannis.

Edit: too late
The Dog Lord
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bangobango said:

The Dog Lord said:

bangobango said:

MuckRaker96 said:

Lords of Westeros at the Beginning of Season 1 and End of Season 8
Are the people of Westeros better off now or then?

King on the Throne Season 1: Robert Baratheon; Season 8 : Bran Stark
Dorne: Season 1: Doran Martell; Season 8: Not sure, looked like an extra from Aladdin
Highgarden: Season 1: Mace Tyrell; SEason 8: Ser Bronn of the ****ing Blackwater
Casterly Rock: Season 1: Tywin Lannister; Season 8: Tyrion Lannister
WInterfell: Season 1: Eddard Stark; Season 8; Queen Sansa Stark
The Vale: Season 1: Lysa Arryn; Season 8: Sweet Robin Arryn
The Iron Islands: Season 1: Balon Greyjoy; Season 8: Yara (Asha) Greyjoy
Storm's End: Season 1: Renly Baratheon; Season 8: Gendry Baratheon
Stannis was the lord at Storms End.

Nope. It was Renly. Stannis always felt slighted for not getting Storms End after defending it to the point of starvation. Stannis ruled Dragonstone.
You're right, I'm wrong.

You're smart. I am dumb.

You're attractive, I'm not attractive.

Hey now, no one called you unattractive.
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