****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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Southlake
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I've been waiting 8 years to see a Dragon go completely berserk and destroy everything in its path.

Anything else is just details to me....

Well done indeed.
Joseph Parrish
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


By the way your wasting of a million civilians you keep repeating is WAAAYYY overblown.

She killed no more than maybe 25-50K tops in that city. Ok maybe 100K tops with the fires after, etc.

All of KL is not wiped out - those in the streets are and some buildings. 100's of thousands were safely inside somewhere.



And you know this how? You're pulling numbers out of nowhere here.
observation.

where are they pulling the 1 million from? you think everyone in that city died????

yet jon, grey worm, arya and a horse randomly in different places are the only 4 survivors?

it's gross exaggeration.

You're pulling numbers out of nowhere and speaking like it definitely happened. Nobody knows the total death count.
FIDO95
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/revision/latest?cb=20150423194920
jtstanley4621
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https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-better-way-game-of-thrones-could-have-arrived-at-this-1834720538

I thought this was a good thought, and I think I would have liked the episode more had it played out this way.
bobinator
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Pulling back for a second, the fact that we're discussing whether a central characters decision making even made sense, and that there are a significant number of people on all sides, is not a good sign.

It makes all of our battle tactics/plot holes/scorpion analysis seem trivial.

There were several examples of stuff in this episode that in any other episode would have just been massively eye-rolling, and we're not even talking about that stuff.

Whether you think Dany's decision to kill all of those people made sense or not, the fact that it's even up for discussion is kind of crazy.
The Dog Lord
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FIDO95 said:

/revision/latest?cb=20150423194920
Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.
Champ Bailey
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bobinator said:

Pulling back for a second, the fact that we're discussing whether a central characters decision making even made sense, and that there are a significant number of people on all sides, is not a good sign.

It makes all of our battle tactics/plot holes/scorpion analysis seem trivial.

There were several examples of stuff in this episode that in any other episode would have just been massively eye-rolling, and we're not even talking about that stuff.

Whether you think Dany's decision to kill all of those people made sense or not, the fact that it's even up for discussion is kind of crazy.


I thought it was pretty clear she was losing it. If you want to be mad, that's fine though.
Champ Bailey
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The Dog Lord said:

FIDO95 said:

/revision/latest?cb=20150423194920
Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.


She murdered hundredsof slavers as soon as she got there.
Scientific
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bangobango said:

3. Jon is the central character in this series and he is one of the least developed.

I've been really critical of this season, but I dont feel Jon is deserving of that actually. I mean, short of his goodbye to Ghost.

I think Jon's actions line up exactly with who he is supposed to be. People are asking why doesn't he reciprocate the love Dany has for him? Because he was raised under Ned Stark- he adored his father. Throughout the show he reflects those Stark principles. His moral conviction does not allow him love his own aunt, but he still has the naivety of Ned to obey his King/Queen based on his principles. Jon was an outcast his entire life, and proving himself to his father was always important to him.
Sports-Ag
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Always pretty cool how they make the show and go behind the scenes. Sometimes just need to step back and see how the people make the show and the great work they do. The extreme work and details they do for a tv show.

Sports-Ag
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I thought the director said it better than D&D when Dany is on Drogon looking at KL before she lights it up.

"She feels empty. It wasn't what she thought it was. It's not enough.
El Hombre Mas Guapo
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aTmAg said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


By the way your wasting of a million civilians you keep repeating is WAAAYYY overblown.

She killed no more than maybe 25-50K tops in that city. Ok maybe 100K tops with the fires after, etc.

All of KL is not wiped out - those in the streets are and some buildings. 100's of thousands were safely inside somewhere.



And you know this how? You're pulling numbers out of nowhere here.
observation.

where are they pulling the 1 million from? you think everyone in that city died????

yet jon, grey worm, arya and a horse randomly in different places are the only 4 survivors?

it's gross exaggeration.

I'm not sure the point is important. Dany was trying to get them all. The fact that she missed some doesn't change that fact.



What makes you sure she wanted to 'get them all' and not just burn down the capitol / break the wheel...
Zombie Jon Snow
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Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.


When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."

I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.

never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but

when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. Like


Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.

And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???

well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.


BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.

KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.

The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.

Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.



Zombie Jon Snow
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Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


By the way your wasting of a million civilians you keep repeating is WAAAYYY overblown.

She killed no more than maybe 25-50K tops in that city. Ok maybe 100K tops with the fires after, etc.

All of KL is not wiped out - those in the streets are and some buildings. 100's of thousands were safely inside somewhere.



And you know this how? You're pulling numbers out of nowhere here.
observation.

where are they pulling the 1 million from? you think everyone in that city died????

yet jon, grey worm, arya and a horse randomly in different places are the only 4 survivors?

it's gross exaggeration.

You're pulling numbers out of nowhere and speaking like it definitely happened. Nobody knows the total death count.
As was he - and admitted he was just being shorthanded with it.

It's NOT 1 million was my point. Not even close.

benchmark
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dahouse said:

Why did Varys remove his rings when he was arrested?
I was thinking they were poison rings and he'd pour wine on them and take a big swig and end things on his own terms...but didn't happen. So I guess it was just his way of acknowledging the inevitable.
Joseph Parrish
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.


When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."

I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.

never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but

when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. Like


Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.

And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???

well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.


BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.

KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.

The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.

Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.




I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.
The Dog Lord
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Champ Bailey said:

The Dog Lord said:

FIDO95 said:

/revision/latest?cb=20150423194920
Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.


She murdered hundred of slavers as soon as she got there.
As a calculated response to their murder of the same number of children. Even with somewhat of a justification, she also later admitted that she did not handle it properly since some of those she had killed had spoken out against killing the children.
aTmAg
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El Hombre Mas Guapo said:

aTmAg said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


By the way your wasting of a million civilians you keep repeating is WAAAYYY overblown.

She killed no more than maybe 25-50K tops in that city. Ok maybe 100K tops with the fires after, etc.

All of KL is not wiped out - those in the streets are and some buildings. 100's of thousands were safely inside somewhere.



And you know this how? You're pulling numbers out of nowhere here.
observation.

where are they pulling the 1 million from? you think everyone in that city died????

yet jon, grey worm, arya and a horse randomly in different places are the only 4 survivors?

it's gross exaggeration.

I'm not sure the point is important. Dany was trying to get them all. The fact that she missed some doesn't change that fact.



What makes you sure she wanted to 'get them all' and not just burn down the capitol / break the wheel...
She was burning the streets when there was nothing but people running for their lives there.

Also, I'm pretty sure that burning a crapton of innocent civilians is not what was originally meant by "break the wheel".
bobinator
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Champ Bailey said:


I thought it was pretty clear she was losing it. If you want to be mad, that's fine though.
That's not what anyone is arguing. Nobody is arguing that she wasn't losing it.

It's just whether that final moment was earned or not.

There seem to be four schools of thought:

  • I personally didn't think it made any sense. To me her obsession was with the Iron Throne. She had become so singularly focused on it that she forgot why she started doing this to begin with. And now with the Iron Throne right there for the taking, she opts instead to just kill a bunch of innocent people for no particular reason.
  • She did have a reason to kill everyone. She coldly calculated that she wouldn't be able to rule without striking fear into all of Westeros, so she just brings the whole city down to serve as an example to everyone else. She isn't crazy, this had a very specific purpose.
  • She's just absolutely lost it and felt like killing everyone.
  • She doesn't think the people in King's Landing are innocent. These are the people who booted out her family so this is all a rage massacre. So she's partially crazy, but in her own head she thinks these people deserve it.

All of these are plausible based on how you read certain events, but that's what I'm saying is that in itself is an issue. Dany is a central character, and in the next to last episode the audience is split into multiple camps over what just happened with her.
Champ Bailey
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The Dog Lord said:

Champ Bailey said:

The Dog Lord said:

FIDO95 said:

/revision/latest?cb=20150423194920
Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.


She murdered hundred of slavers as soon as she got there.
As a calculated response to their murder of the same number of children. Even with somewhat of a justification, she also later admitted that she did not handle it properly since some of those she had killed had spoken out against killing the children.


And I bet she later regrets destroying King's Landing.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.


When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."

I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.

never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but

when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. Like


Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.

And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???

well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.


BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.

KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.

The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.

Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.




I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.

Show me where I said she was angry with civilians and I'll agree with you that I moved them.

I thought her anger and it's direction were obvious. Just like civilians in other bombed cities they are often innocent victims - Nagasaki for example. The target there was the Empire and pushing for surrender. Yet millions of innocents died.
Social Media Influencer
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Quote:

Hell at this point i just assume the iron throne will be no more - the wheel will be broken as promised.

Each house on their own.
This is what I've been expecting for a couple seasons. But now, who the hell knows?
Joseph Parrish
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.


When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."

I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.

never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but

when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. Like


Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.

And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???

well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.


BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.

KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.

The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.

Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.




I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.

Show me where I said she was angry with civilians and I'll agree with you that I moved them.

I thought her anger and it's direction were obvious. Just like civilians in other bombed cities they are often innocent victims - Nagasaki for example. The target there was the Empire and pushing for surrender. Yet millions of innocents died.

Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her
This was your argument. I just don't think they did enough to have her go torch everybody. That's why I'm saying I wish they had more episodes to play that out.
Fenrir
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bobinator said:

Champ Bailey said:


I thought it was pretty clear she was losing it. If you want to be mad, that's fine though.
That's not what anyone is arguing. Nobody is arguing that she wasn't losing it.

It's just whether that final moment was earned or not.

There seem to be four schools of thought:

  • I personally didn't think it made any sense. To me her obsession was with the Iron Throne. She had become so singularly focused on it that she forgot why she started doing this to begin with. And now with the Iron Throne right there for the taking, she opts instead to just kill a bunch of innocent people for no particular reason.
  • She did have a reason to kill everyone. She coldly calculated that she wouldn't be able to rule without striking fear into all of Westeros, so she just brings the whole city down to serve as an example to everyone else. She isn't crazy, this had a very specific purpose.
  • She's just absolutely lost it and felt like killing everyone.
  • She doesn't think the people in King's Landing are innocent. These are the people who booted out her family so this is all a rage massacre. So she's partially crazy, but in her own head she thinks these people deserve it.

All of these are plausible based on how you read certain events, but that's what I'm saying is that in itself is an issue. Dany is a central character, and in the next to last episode the audience is split into multiple camps over what just happened with her.


This season the creators have had a bad habit of having to explain in the post show about motivations and what went down in the episode. There has been a little too much telling and not enough clearly showing.
The Dog Lord
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Champ Bailey said:

The Dog Lord said:

Champ Bailey said:

The Dog Lord said:

FIDO95 said:

/revision/latest?cb=20150423194920
Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.


She murdered hundred of slavers as soon as she got there.
As a calculated response to their murder of the same number of children. Even with somewhat of a justification, she also later admitted that she did not handle it properly since some of those she had killed had spoken out against killing the children.

And I bet she later regrets destroying King's Landing.
Agreed on that at least. That's actually what I'm most interested in seeing next week. What does she say to Jon/others? Does she seem somewhat normal again, or is she transformed almost permanently into angry/crazy Dany? The preview of her overlooking her troops and KL looked Hitler-esque.
aTmAg
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.


When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."

I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.

never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but

when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. Like


Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.

And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???

well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.
Then why was she so adamant before about not wanting to be the queen of ashes? If they were merely supporters of Cersei they why not nuke the city seasons ago?

Quote:

BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.
That's when you are at 30,000 feet. Not when you are 100 (or even landing on the buildings).
Quote:

KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.

The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.

Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.
There were several shots where she nuked civilians in an open area without a building nearby. She seemed quite angry with the civilians too. And what was BS, was that she took it out on them before taking it out on Cersei. That also made no sense.
El Hombre Mas Guapo
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Is the Iron Throne still standing? Surely they would show it melting/crashing down if it was destroyed.

Curious what the board thinks
canadiaggie
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Someone raised the point (on here or reddit don't remember which) that the citizens pleading for Cersei to surrender rather than for mercy directly from Dany may have been one of the final straws. In the sense that she realised that she'll never be seen as the benevolent queen she has, IMO, deluded herself into believing she is. She realises that everything she was told about Westeros being different from Essos, that she would be seen as a foreign conqueror, etc. is all true to a greater magnitude than probably even those who told her thought so.

So much so that in their darkest hour, the people looked to Cersei rather than relying on Dany's mercy
The Dog Lord
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.


When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."

I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.

never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but

when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. Like


Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.

And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???

well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.


BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.

KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.

The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.

Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.




I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.

Show me where I said she was angry with civilians and I'll agree with you that I moved them.

I thought her anger and it's direction were obvious. Just like civilians in other bombed cities they are often innocent victims - Nagasaki for example. The target there was the Empire and pushing for surrender. Yet millions of innocents died.

But killing civilians in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were what they felt were necessary to force a surrender. Killing troops only likely wasn't going to do it. Also, Dany didn't need to kill civilians to ensure the surrender. She had it already.
Joseph Parrish
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aTmAg said:



There were several shots where she nuked civilians in an open area without a building nearby. She seemed quite angry with the civilians too. And what was BS, was that she took it out on them before taking it out on Cersei. That also made no sense.

This is basically what I've been trying to say. I'm ok with her going MQ, just felt a little forced doing it so quickly.
Joseph Parrish
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El Hombre Mas Guapo said:

Is the Iron Throne still standing? Surely they would show it melting/crashing down if it was destroyed.

Curious what the board thinks
It'll probably look like her previous vision...if I had to guess. Still there, just covered in ash.
Brian Earl Spilner
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This is Jon next episode.

The Dog Lord
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El Hombre Mas Guapo said:

Is the Iron Throne still standing? Surely they would show it melting/crashing down if it was destroyed.

Curious what the board thinks
I think it's still there. Some of the Red Keep may still be standing, but it's hard to tell how much since they didn't show a wide shot again toward the end after pieces of it collapsed in the Jaime/Cersei and Hound/Mountain scenes.
aTmAg
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Joseph Parrish said:

aTmAg said:



There were several shots where she nuked civilians in an open area without a building nearby. She seemed quite angry with the civilians too. And what was BS, was that she took it out on them before taking it out on Cersei. That also made no sense.

This is basically what I've been trying to say. I'm ok with her going MQ, just felt a little forced doing it so quickly.
Agreed 100%
SpreadsheetAg
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Quote:

singularly focused on it that she forgot why she started doing this to begin with.
Just like she forgot about the Iron Fleet? She's getting early onset Alzheimers.
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