You're pulling numbers out of nowhere and speaking like it definitely happened. Nobody knows the total death count.Zombie Jon Snow said:observation.Joseph Parrish said:And you know this how? You're pulling numbers out of nowhere here.Zombie Jon Snow said:
By the way your wasting of a million civilians you keep repeating is WAAAYYY overblown.
She killed no more than maybe 25-50K tops in that city. Ok maybe 100K tops with the fires after, etc.
All of KL is not wiped out - those in the streets are and some buildings. 100's of thousands were safely inside somewhere.
where are they pulling the 1 million from? you think everyone in that city died????
yet jon, grey worm, arya and a horse randomly in different places are the only 4 survivors?
it's gross exaggeration.
/revision/latest?cb=20150423194920 Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.FIDO95 said:
bobinator said:
Pulling back for a second, the fact that we're discussing whether a central characters decision making even made sense, and that there are a significant number of people on all sides, is not a good sign.
It makes all of our battle tactics/plot holes/scorpion analysis seem trivial.
There were several examples of stuff in this episode that in any other episode would have just been massively eye-rolling, and we're not even talking about that stuff.
Whether you think Dany's decision to kill all of those people made sense or not, the fact that it's even up for discussion is kind of crazy.
The Dog Lord said:Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.FIDO95 said:
bangobango said:
3. Jon is the central character in this series and he is one of the least developed.
aTmAg said:I'm not sure the point is important. Dany was trying to get them all. The fact that she missed some doesn't change that fact.Zombie Jon Snow said:observation.Joseph Parrish said:And you know this how? You're pulling numbers out of nowhere here.Zombie Jon Snow said:
By the way your wasting of a million civilians you keep repeating is WAAAYYY overblown.
She killed no more than maybe 25-50K tops in that city. Ok maybe 100K tops with the fires after, etc.
All of KL is not wiped out - those in the streets are and some buildings. 100's of thousands were safely inside somewhere.
where are they pulling the 1 million from? you think everyone in that city died????
yet jon, grey worm, arya and a horse randomly in different places are the only 4 survivors?
it's gross exaggeration.
Joseph Parrish said:And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."Zombie Jon Snow said:
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.
never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but
when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. LikeQuote:
This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
As was he - and admitted he was just being shorthanded with it.Joseph Parrish said:You're pulling numbers out of nowhere and speaking like it definitely happened. Nobody knows the total death count.Zombie Jon Snow said:observation.Joseph Parrish said:And you know this how? You're pulling numbers out of nowhere here.Zombie Jon Snow said:
By the way your wasting of a million civilians you keep repeating is WAAAYYY overblown.
She killed no more than maybe 25-50K tops in that city. Ok maybe 100K tops with the fires after, etc.
All of KL is not wiped out - those in the streets are and some buildings. 100's of thousands were safely inside somewhere.
where are they pulling the 1 million from? you think everyone in that city died????
yet jon, grey worm, arya and a horse randomly in different places are the only 4 survivors?
it's gross exaggeration.
I was thinking they were poison rings and he'd pour wine on them and take a big swig and end things on his own terms...but didn't happen. So I guess it was just his way of acknowledging the inevitable.dahouse said:
Why did Varys remove his rings when he was arrested?
I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."Zombie Jon Snow said:
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.
never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but
when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. LikeQuote:
This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.
BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.
KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.
The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.
Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.
As a calculated response to their murder of the same number of children. Even with somewhat of a justification, she also later admitted that she did not handle it properly since some of those she had killed had spoken out against killing the children.Champ Bailey said:The Dog Lord said:Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.FIDO95 said:
She murdered hundred of slavers as soon as she got there.
She was burning the streets when there was nothing but people running for their lives there.El Hombre Mas Guapo said:aTmAg said:I'm not sure the point is important. Dany was trying to get them all. The fact that she missed some doesn't change that fact.Zombie Jon Snow said:observation.Joseph Parrish said:And you know this how? You're pulling numbers out of nowhere here.Zombie Jon Snow said:
By the way your wasting of a million civilians you keep repeating is WAAAYYY overblown.
She killed no more than maybe 25-50K tops in that city. Ok maybe 100K tops with the fires after, etc.
All of KL is not wiped out - those in the streets are and some buildings. 100's of thousands were safely inside somewhere.
where are they pulling the 1 million from? you think everyone in that city died????
yet jon, grey worm, arya and a horse randomly in different places are the only 4 survivors?
it's gross exaggeration.
What makes you sure she wanted to 'get them all' and not just burn down the capitol / break the wheel...
That's not what anyone is arguing. Nobody is arguing that she wasn't losing it.Champ Bailey said:
I thought it was pretty clear she was losing it. If you want to be mad, that's fine though.
The Dog Lord said:As a calculated response to their murder of the same number of children. Even with somewhat of a justification, she also later admitted that she did not handle it properly since some of those she had killed had spoken out against killing the children.Champ Bailey said:The Dog Lord said:Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.FIDO95 said:
She murdered hundred of slavers as soon as she got there.
Joseph Parrish said:I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."Zombie Jon Snow said:
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.
never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but
when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. LikeQuote:
This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.
BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.
KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.
The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.
Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.
This is what I've been expecting for a couple seasons. But now, who the hell knows?Quote:
Hell at this point i just assume the iron throne will be no more - the wheel will be broken as promised.
Each house on their own.
Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."Zombie Jon Snow said:
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.
never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but
when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. LikeQuote:
This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.
BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.
KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.
The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.
Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.
Show me where I said she was angry with civilians and I'll agree with you that I moved them.
I thought her anger and it's direction were obvious. Just like civilians in other bombed cities they are often innocent victims - Nagasaki for example. The target there was the Empire and pushing for surrender. Yet millions of innocents died.
This was your argument. I just don't think they did enough to have her go torch everybody. That's why I'm saying I wish they had more episodes to play that out.Quote:
This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her
bobinator said:That's not what anyone is arguing. Nobody is arguing that she wasn't losing it.Champ Bailey said:
I thought it was pretty clear she was losing it. If you want to be mad, that's fine though.
It's just whether that final moment was earned or not.
There seem to be four schools of thought:
- I personally didn't think it made any sense. To me her obsession was with the Iron Throne. She had become so singularly focused on it that she forgot why she started doing this to begin with. And now with the Iron Throne right there for the taking, she opts instead to just kill a bunch of innocent people for no particular reason.
- She did have a reason to kill everyone. She coldly calculated that she wouldn't be able to rule without striking fear into all of Westeros, so she just brings the whole city down to serve as an example to everyone else. She isn't crazy, this had a very specific purpose.
- She's just absolutely lost it and felt like killing everyone.
- She doesn't think the people in King's Landing are innocent. These are the people who booted out her family so this is all a rage massacre. So she's partially crazy, but in her own head she thinks these people deserve it.
All of these are plausible based on how you read certain events, but that's what I'm saying is that in itself is an issue. Dany is a central character, and in the next to last episode the audience is split into multiple camps over what just happened with her.
Agreed on that at least. That's actually what I'm most interested in seeing next week. What does she say to Jon/others? Does she seem somewhat normal again, or is she transformed almost permanently into angry/crazy Dany? The preview of her overlooking her troops and KL looked Hitler-esque.Champ Bailey said:The Dog Lord said:As a calculated response to their murder of the same number of children. Even with somewhat of a justification, she also later admitted that she did not handle it properly since some of those she had killed had spoken out against killing the children.Champ Bailey said:The Dog Lord said:Not innocent. He killed a prisoner that was awaiting trial when she was trying to establish rule of law.FIDO95 said:
She murdered hundred of slavers as soon as she got there.
And I bet she later regrets destroying King's Landing.
Then why was she so adamant before about not wanting to be the queen of ashes? If they were merely supporters of Cersei they why not nuke the city seasons ago?Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."Zombie Jon Snow said:
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.
never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but
when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. LikeQuote:
This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.
That's when you are at 30,000 feet. Not when you are 100 (or even landing on the buildings).Quote:
BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.
There were several shots where she nuked civilians in an open area without a building nearby. She seemed quite angry with the civilians too. And what was BS, was that she took it out on them before taking it out on Cersei. That also made no sense.Quote:
KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.
The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.
Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.
But killing civilians in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were what they felt were necessary to force a surrender. Killing troops only likely wasn't going to do it. Also, Dany didn't need to kill civilians to ensure the surrender. She had it already.Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???Zombie Jon Snow said:Joseph Parrish said:When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."Zombie Jon Snow said:
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.
never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but
when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. LikeQuote:
This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.
It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.
well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.
BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.
KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.
The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.
Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.
Show me where I said she was angry with civilians and I'll agree with you that I moved them.
I thought her anger and it's direction were obvious. Just like civilians in other bombed cities they are often innocent victims - Nagasaki for example. The target there was the Empire and pushing for surrender. Yet millions of innocents died.
This is basically what I've been trying to say. I'm ok with her going MQ, just felt a little forced doing it so quickly.aTmAg said:
There were several shots where she nuked civilians in an open area without a building nearby. She seemed quite angry with the civilians too. And what was BS, was that she took it out on them before taking it out on Cersei. That also made no sense.
It'll probably look like her previous vision...if I had to guess. Still there, just covered in ash.El Hombre Mas Guapo said:
Is the Iron Throne still standing? Surely they would show it melting/crashing down if it was destroyed.
Curious what the board thinks
I think it's still there. Some of the Red Keep may still be standing, but it's hard to tell how much since they didn't show a wide shot again toward the end after pieces of it collapsed in the Jaime/Cersei and Hound/Mountain scenes.El Hombre Mas Guapo said:
Is the Iron Throne still standing? Surely they would show it melting/crashing down if it was destroyed.
Curious what the board thinks
Agreed 100%Joseph Parrish said:This is basically what I've been trying to say. I'm ok with her going MQ, just felt a little forced doing it so quickly.aTmAg said:
There were several shots where she nuked civilians in an open area without a building nearby. She seemed quite angry with the civilians too. And what was BS, was that she took it out on them before taking it out on Cersei. That also made no sense.
Just like she forgot about the Iron Fleet? She's getting early onset Alzheimers.Quote:
singularly focused on it that she forgot why she started doing this to begin with.
