****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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bobinator
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Yeah, it's still there. Has to be.
BallerStaf2003
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Although this season has been hugely disappointing, it's clear that this episode is very specific to George R. Martins overall vision for the show and the ending. A lot of it didn't make much sense (especially Jamie and Daenerys), because the little details that required more time to tell the story were cut to cram everything in. It seems every other episode had the producers trying to fill in the gaps to get to this point while skipping over character development, and they failed.

In GRRM's world. There is no good and evil, only shades in between. And power corrupts ruthlessly and without fail.

Jon's fatal flaw of trusting people will haunt him as it caused the genocide of many. The Northerners who were good became the rapists. The unsullied who were liberators are now executioners. It's very difficult to watch, but true to the world he created.

Daenerys was the ultimate villain after all. You could see this coming when she burned the Tarlys last season. I knew she was going to go mad, but I did not expect her to slaughter innocent people. I guess the expert marksman on the scorpion wasn't on this shift?

On the flip side, seeing Cersei show her bare soul with the love of her life shows her as a child, just wanting love. The good of her finally came out in the end when she lost power. Hard to watch and hard to process. Also, a very anticlimactic way for such a villain to die.

Tyrion once again shows he can't do anything right, as he stumbled his opportunity to help Varys. I can't help but feel his character has been wasted by the show.

Arya's journey on the ground was so heartbreaking and amazing to watch. She was with the civilians and the savior of humanity is powerless against a ruthless dragon queen. Was the white horse Bran? Her father? The Hound from the grave?

There's obviously more to Jamie than the show has shown us, but what is his point? He's been redeeming himself for eight seasons and just doesn't care if hundreds of thousands die? Where did that come from?

Regardless, the episode was satisfying regardless of the many things that don't make sense given the time restraints.

My predictions for the last episode?

Tyrion goes on trial and is possibly executed for letting Jamie free.

Jon Snow will become Azor Ahai and make the sacrifice to kill who he loves to save what's left of Westeros.

Jon will not be king, he will go back north and live in solitude.

Sansa will rule the iron throne.

Maybe we can get some clarity as to what Bran does.... if anything.
bobinator
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Also, going back to the Bran messing-with-the-past discussion of last week. Now everything that happened in Bran's vision has happened during the events of the show except the Mad King's death.

Still think there's some potential there, but for the life of me can't make those pieces fit now.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.


When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."

I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.

never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but

when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. Like


Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.

And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???

well. that's actually not really the point. but they supported Cersei. didn't overthrow her themselves. she came to the walls and warned them she was going to do it if they did not. they've certainly also heard what she did in Meereen and now at WF.


BUT beyond that it's very easy from the air to firebomb some place and see it as a target and not the humanity at ground level. Air Force bombers and jet fighters and missiles from a distance do it all the time.

KL represented all that she hated and her anger took over.

The anger was at KL, the North, Westeros, her advisers, her loss of children and advisers too.

Her ANGER was not with the civilians but with all KL represented to her.




I can agree with that now that you moved the goal posts.

Show me where I said she was angry with civilians and I'll agree with you that I moved them.

I thought her anger and it's direction were obvious. Just like civilians in other bombed cities they are often innocent victims - Nagasaki for example. The target there was the Empire and pushing for surrender. Yet millions of innocents died.

Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her
This was your argument. I just don't think they did enough to have her go torch everybody. That's why I'm saying I wish they had more episodes to play that out.

NOPE - you did it AGAIN. you pick and choose and leave out what doesn't suit your invalid point.



It wasn't even anywhere else it was literally right AFTER that - the same phrase you TRUNCATED



Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.


so
1. Destroys those she is angry with

followed by
2. a LIST of those she is angry with - KL, Westeros, the North, her advisers and anger over the deaths of he children her army, etc.

I literally laid it all out for you right there.

And you took the first part and asked where she ever was every angry with civilians. Then, I again said it was anger with KL and everything else. Then you accused me of moving the goalposts and used the same partial quote to imply I said she was angry with civilians.


what she does, to whom, and why are all right there.......

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.


MuckRaker96
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If you had the close captions on, you probably noticed Sandor whispered "I love you 3000" right before he pushed Gregor off the edge.
Joseph Parrish
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It's not an invalid point. I'm not going to copy paste all your garbage. You just hate being challenged. "All of KL and Westeros (aka, the innocent civilians)" did NOTHING to betray her, so the point after wasn't necessary to quote. And even if you try to spin something, showing loyalty to another ruler isn't even in the same ballpark as what her actual enemies did.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Sort of how Dany whispered "Hail Hydra" into Jorah's ear before burning him.
M.C. Swag
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Can you and ATM start a separate thread?
Brian Earl Spilner
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Nice little pick-me-up after seeing Dany go full Hitler.

Zombie Jon Snow
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Joseph Parrish said:



It's not an invalid point. I'm not going to copy paste all your garbage. You just hate being challenged. "All of KL and Westeros" did NOTHING to betray her, so the point after wasn't necessary to quote.

Don't take this part:


This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her


and challenge me on where she was angry with civilians, then accuse me of moving the goalposts when the second part of the statement you keep trying to use says:


all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.


It is necessary to quote - you said yourself you agreed after I said it was anger with all of those parties and represented in KL as the target (not the civilians themselves).

Aggie_2463
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Arya is going to kill Dany for wasting Kings Landing.

John is either going to hand the throne over to Sansa, hell maybe even ole Tyrion.
Joseph Parrish
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Because you changed it to what they represented...not what they did. They did nothing. There was no betrayal by the civilians.

Representation vs action....those are not the same.
BallerStaf2003
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Aggie_2463 said:

Arya is going to kill Dany for wasting Kings Landing.

John is either going to hand the throne over to Sansa, hell maybe even ole Tyrion.


Hopefully Sansa.

Tyrion has been a complete failure for four seasons now.
OldShadeOfBlue
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Scientific said:

bangobango said:

3. Jon is the central character in this series and he is one of the least developed.

I've been really critical of this season, but I dont feel Jon is deserving of that actually. I mean, short of his goodbye to Ghost.

I think Jon's actions line up exactly with who he is supposed to be. People are asking why doesn't he reciprocate the love Dany has for him? Because he was raised under Ned Stark- he adored his father. Throughout the show he reflects those Stark principles. His moral conviction does not allow him love his own aunt, but he still has the naivety of Ned to obey his King/Queen based on his principles. Jon was an outcast his entire life, and proving himself to his father was always important to him.
I don't disagree with the idea that Jon has been underdeveloped. It straight up surprised me when Jon, after all he's been through, would still be daft enough to say "I don't want it" and believe it's even a factor. And after all of the people around him have made it clear to him that things were headed this way, he still let it happen. It's not until after the fact that he realizes mistakes have been made. They have setup so many reasons over 8 seasons for Jon's arc to change and he still hasn't. His father died, his brother died, and even Jon himself died because of the typical Stark decision making and he still hasn't learned a damn thing. And after all this, I'm supposed to believe that he'd be capable of running the Seven Kingdoms?

Honestly after all that has happened, I believe now more than ever that there's no longer a good option for a ruler and we'll be stuck with the best of the not so great options. Actually reminds me quite a bit of the 2016 election amirite?
MuckRaker96
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Aggie_2463 said:

Arya is going to kill Dany for wasting Kings Landing.

John is either going to hand the throne over to Sansa, hell maybe even ole Tyrion.
Why would Arya give a **** about KL? That's where her father got murdered
Body By Fisher
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MuckRaker96 said:

If you had the close captions on, you probably noticed Sandor whispered "I love you 3000" right before he pushed Gregor off the edge.
I love the random inaudible conversations between extras that you get to read in CC. I have no idea which 2 soldiers are talking, and yet I'm privy.
bobinator
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Okay I'll defend the show in this instance. Jon doing anything other than what he did wouldn't have made sense. Jon isn't going to go against Dany just because of what she might do. She has to actually do it first.

He refused to believe that she actually would, and he was wrong.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Joseph Parrish said:




Because you changed it to what they represented...not what they did. They did nothing. There was no betrayal by the civilians.

Representation vs action....those are not the same.

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

FTACO97
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Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Zombie Jon Snow said:


It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.


When has she ever killed innocent civilians before? Not sure how you can say that's "in her nature."

I wish they hadn't cut these last two seasons short. Could have used more development.

never said it was her nature to kill innocent civilians before .....but

when you edit and pick and choose what you reply to you purposefully leave out pertinent info. Like


Quote:

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.

It was a response in kind. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't necessary. But come on it was in her nature.

And the innocent civilians did what to anger her???
They wouldn't stand up against Cersei! They made that point several times over the past few episodes. She expects them to revolt against Cersei like the slaves she freed. But then she lands on that tower on Drogon and looks down at the people and they're not celebrating her victory, they're fearing for their lives and scared to death of her.
Old Tom Morris
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The betrayal of the citizens by sticking with Cersei is pretty thin. This is where I think some sort of internal KL betrayal to make this go down easier would have been in order with more episodes to work with. Just a little more to chew on as far as rejection by people in KL to really sell the move to rule with fear. Maybe that's how you have Missandei get kidnapped vs. the off-screen Euron thing.
BallerStaf2003
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MuckRaker96 said:

Aggie_2463 said:

Arya is going to kill Dany for wasting Kings Landing.

John is either going to hand the throne over to Sansa, hell maybe even ole Tyrion.
Why would Arya give a **** about KL? That's where her father got murdered


She had a change of heart with the hound and went completely back to her stark roots. Empathy for civilians that have nothing to do with Ned's death.
Zombie Jon Snow
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bobinator said:

Okay I'll defend the show in this instance. Jon doing anything other than what he did wouldn't have made sense. Jon isn't going to go against Dany just because of what she might do. She has to actually do it first.

He refused to believe that she actually would, and he was wrong.

Yep. Lots of them were wrong.

Varys was right.

Tyrion got her to reluctantly agree to call it off when the bells rang but..... she lied (for dramatic purposes i suppose). And he and Jon thought she would do the right thing when it came down to it.

By the way not shown of course but - I would imagine in the morning or sometime late that night she found out Jamie escaped and probably knew it was Tyrion heck the Unsullied guards would say the dwarf ordered them to stand down - it's not hard to believe that played into her changing her mind.
SpreadsheetAg
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Stolen from Humor Thread because it fits here (for some people)

MuckRaker96
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Burlington Bar Bell Scene Reaction video has 13,000 views in first 20 minutes. And a cameo by young Hodor!

Brian Earl Spilner
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MuckRaker96 said:

Aggie_2463 said:

Arya is going to kill Dany for wasting Kings Landing.

John is either going to hand the throne over to Sansa, hell maybe even ole Tyrion.
Why would Arya give a **** about KL? That's where her father got murdered
Arya doesn't seem like the type to be ok with killing innocent people by the thousands.
bangobango
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M.C. Swag said:

Can you and ATM start a separate thread?


Autism fight?
Body By Fisher
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Quote:

She had a change of heart with the hound and went completely back to her stark roots. Empathy for civilians that have nothing to do with Ned's death.
So far, that's the least talked about Big Thing in this episode.

Arya fled KL in hiding after Ned's death and hadn't been back since. She returns just in time to see it burn and crumble, and again narrowly escapes. I assume they gave her the white horse to let her ride out in contrast to the way she had to sneak out last time.
bangobango
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BallerStaf2003 said:

Although this season has been hugely disappointing, it's clear that this episode is very specific to George R. Martins overall vision for the show and the ending. A lot of it didn't make much sense (especially Jamie and Daenerys), because the little details that required more time to tell the story were cut to cram everything in. It seems every other episode had the producers trying to fill in the gaps to get to this point while skipping over character development, and they failed.

In GRRM's world. There is no good and evil, only shades in between. And power corrupts ruthlessly and without fail.

Jon's fatal flaw of trusting people will haunt him as it caused the genocide of many. The Northerners who were good became the rapists. The unsullied who were liberators are now executioners. It's very difficult to watch, but true to the world he created.

Daenerys was the ultimate villain after all. You could see this coming when she burned the Tarlys last season. I knew she was going to go mad, but I did not expect her to slaughter innocent people. I guess the expert marksman on the scorpion wasn't on this shift?

On the flip side, seeing Cersei show her bare soul with the love of her life shows her as a child, just wanting love. The good of her finally came out in the end when she lost power. Hard to watch and hard to process. Also, a very anticlimactic way for such a villain to die.

Tyrion once again shows he can't do anything right, as he stumbled his opportunity to help Varys. I can't help but feel his character has been wasted by the show.

Arya's journey on the ground was so heartbreaking and amazing to watch. She was with the civilians and the savior of humanity is powerless against a ruthless dragon queen. Was the white horse Bran? Her father? The Hound from the grave?

There's obviously more to Jamie than the show has shown us, but what is his point? He's been redeeming himself for eight seasons and just doesn't care if hundreds of thousands die? Where did that come from?

Regardless, the episode was satisfying regardless of the many things that don't make sense given the time restraints.

My predictions for the last episode?

Tyrion goes on trial and is possibly executed for letting Jamie free.

Jon Snow will become Azor Ahai and make the sacrifice to kill who he loves to save what's left of Westeros.

Jon will not be king, he will go back north and live in solitude.

Sansa will rule the iron throne.

Maybe we can get some clarity as to what Bran does.... if anything.


Dude...
Zombie Jon Snow
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what that for? he's entitled to his opinion.
BallerStaf2003
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Insightful! Thanks for your input!
bonfarr
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:



It's not an invalid point. I'm not going to copy paste all your garbage. You just hate being challenged. "All of KL and Westeros" did NOTHING to betray her, so the point after wasn't necessary to quote.

Don't take this part:


This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her


and challenge me on where she was angry with civilians, then accuse me of moving the goalposts when the second part of the statement you keep trying to use says:


all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.


It is necessary to quote - you said yourself you agreed after I said it was anger with all of those parties and represented in KL as the target (not the civilians themselves).




When Dany said "Let it be fear" then she was letting it be known that she wasn't planning to win the throne by winning the hearts and minds and that she was ok with collateral damage. She was going to take the throne by force and kill anything in her path Dothraki style.

Once she said that the innocent civilians were toast and just a means to send the world a message.
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
aTmAg
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Joseph Parrish said:




Because you changed it to what they represented...not what they did. They did nothing. There was no betrayal by the civilians.

Representation vs action....those are not the same.

This woman's nature was to destroy those that anger her - and all of KL and Westeros and the North and her advisors betrayals had angered her greatly and killed 2 of her children and 75% of her army.
If that were the case, then she has the intelligence of a 4 year old child. Which runs counter to her character in past seasons when she's been pretty damned smart.
OldShadeOfBlue
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bobinator said:

Okay I'll defend the show in this instance. Jon doing anything other than what he did wouldn't have made sense. Jon isn't going to go against Dany just because of what she might do. She has to actually do it first.

He refused to believe that she actually would, and he was wrong.
If anything it's solidified Jon's character as an honorable idiot. I don't find it great writing to have a character go through all the trials Jon has gone through to ultimately learn nothing from it and refuse to evolve.

And for me I have more of a problem with Jon refusing the throne than betraying Dany on what she might do. He should have figured this out before she gave him a reason to.
Champ Bailey
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BallerStaf2003 said:

Aggie_2463 said:

Arya is going to kill Dany for wasting Kings Landing.

John is either going to hand the throne over to Sansa, hell maybe even ole Tyrion.


Hopefully Sansa.

Tyrion has been a complete failure for four seasons now.


Meh. I think the books handled him better, especially while he was enslaved, but the show has been fine with him imo. I think the fact that he promised to sign away his whole fortune in the books made him have a lot more to lose on the table.
SpreadsheetAg
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MuckRaker96 said:

Burlington Bar Bell Scene Reaction video has 13,000 views in first 20 minutes. And a cameo by young Hodor!


All the millennial hipsters watching this in the bar and being all deflated and like "Nooooo" , are who I image the main complainers on this thread are like... if this last episode bothered you so much or was unexpected; this show is not going to end like you want. And even with 1 episode left, and certain things trending one way, and you reset your expectations again - it still won't end the way you want even with reset expectations for the next episode.
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