****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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Zombie Jon Snow
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HtownAg92 said:

Marcus Aurelius said:

Trying to think of a movie / TV series where enemies meet to negotiate with respect and one attacks the other with a disadvantage. 300 ?? "This is Sparta!!!!!!"



lol

they were all pretty well equal though - except Spanish news who brought like 7.

and it was an ambush not a parlay. they wanted to fight.

M.C. Swag
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Urban Ag said:

M.C. Swag said:

bobinator said:

I also still think it's as easy as not wanting to just kill Dany, she needs to wipe out her army. I've posted this a few times already, but just once more to see what folks think...

Cersei knows that if Dany falls, Jon (who isn't there) will be in control. Jon, and by extension Sansa and the others, are much more pragmatic leaders and will likely pull the army back, regroup, call in more banners against Cersei, create a large alliance, etc. And then attack King's Landing down the road in a battle that Cersei has no chance to win.

Her best chance is if they attack, right now, so she's trying to provoke Dany into doing it. That's why she kills Missandei, she doesn't want Dany to be patient and wait for support, she wants her to attack with everything she has, right now.

So yeah, Cersei doesn't play by the rules, but she accepted this parlay and isn't going to break the rules of it because it doesn't benefit her to.
The parts that are bolded don't make sense. You contradicted yourself. Either Cersei WANTS Dany to attack for some obvious benefit to her or she doesn't and adheres by the rules because there's nothing to gain. Which is it?
Cersei and Co don't know the details of how the first dragon died. They do know they killed the second in an ambush. They also know once the threat was realized that hitting a dragon/rider aware of the danger didn't work out as well. If Cersei has her troops start flinging arrows and giant crossbow bolts at Dany and her entourage, she immediately puts herself in great danger that Drogon goes beserk and attacks. That could easily end in deep fried bich or in Drogon's death, but it's not a sound risk to take. A pissed off, wounded, Drogon at that proximity could end her reign in moments and she's know it.
Why does the details of Viserion's death matter? Euron is standing right next to Cersei and saw precisely how easy it was to take down Rhaegal. Like, why didn't Drogon go berserk when Rhaegal died? Why did he fly away from a handful of ships? But now that there's dozens of stationary cross bows, he is somehow more dangerous than he was before? Don't buy it.
kraut
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M.C. Swag said:

The two situations don't equate man. The second Cersei kills Dany in the pit is the second that Drogon fire annihilates everyone in that courtyard. It was a lose/lose proposition. That is not even close to what could happen now with her surrounded by Super Cross Bows. Dany offers no threat to Cersei. And it makes no sense to 'honor' the parlay when you just executed Missandei with obvious intentions of provocation. You're completely glossing over that. Cersei killed Missandei, but spared Tyrion? Why? She literally sent an assassin to kill him. Wouldn't see relish in doing the deed herself? C'mon man. You can't keep goal tending this one.
Cercei told Danni to surrender unconditionally or Missandei dies. She was keeping her word at the parlay.
Phrasing
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chipotle said:

gigemJTH12 said:

Oh I took at as she just thinks the writing sucks.

I HOPE it's how you took it.

I saw it as, "writing sucks" and "my character doesn't end well".
Or she might have just been stoned....looked very giggly
redline248
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bobinator said:

I also still think it's as easy as not wanting to just kill Dany, she needs to wipe out her army. I've posted this a few times already, but just once more to see what folks think...

Cersei knows that if Dany falls, Jon (who isn't there) will be in control. Jon, and by extension Sansa and the others, are much more pragmatic leaders and will likely pull the army back, regroup, call in more banners against Cersei, create a large alliance, etc. And then attack King's Landing down the road in a battle that Cersei has no chance to win.

Her best chance is if they attack, right now, so she's trying to provoke Dany into doing it. That's why she kills Missandei, she doesn't want Dany to be patient and wait for support, she wants her to attack with everything she has, right now.

So yeah, Cersei doesn't play by the rules, but she accepted this parlay and isn't going to break the rules of it because it doesn't benefit her to.


What is the difference in provoking Dany to attack right then and just sending out a cavalry to run them down right then? Am I missing what you mean by the bolded part?

Edit: I should have kept reading
Urban Ag
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The dragon standing just outside range of her projectiles is still very relevant. You're absolutely correct in that Dany had such a small force with her that they could easily rain arrows all over them and send out cavalry through the gates to run them all down. Easily. But they still fear the dragon.
JABQ04
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Marcus Aurelius said:

Trying to think of a movie / TV series where enemies meet to negotiate with respect and one attacks the other with a disadvantage. 300 ?? "This is Sparta!!!!!!"


Kingdom of Heaven. Just rewatched the other day. Nut job Templar kills emissary for Muslims. Sends head back with other guy
Icecream_Ag
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clinker03 said:

chipotle said:

gigemJTH12 said:

Oh I took at as she just thinks the writing sucks.

I HOPE it's how you took it.

I saw it as, "writing sucks" and "my character doesn't end well".
Or she might have just been stoned....looked very giggly
she's always giggly
HtownAg92
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

HtownAg92 said:

Marcus Aurelius said:

Trying to think of a movie / TV series where enemies meet to negotiate with respect and one attacks the other with a disadvantage. 300 ?? "This is Sparta!!!!!!"



lol

they were all pretty well equal though - except Spanish news who brought like 7.

and it was an ambush not a parlay. they wanted to fight.


Yes, but they did lay out the rules about hitting in the face and messing up hair.
M.C. Swag
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Urban Ag said:

The dragon standing just outside range of her projectiles is still very relevant. You're absolutely correct in that Dany had such a small force with her that they could easily rain arrows all over them and send out cavalry through the gates to run them all down. Easily. But they still fear the dragon.
You guys keep ignoring the act of what she did with Missandei. Does executing Missandei speak to someone who is 'AFRAID'? Cersei is not afraid of Dany or her Dragon (and she doesn't have any reason to be afraid. A handful of Super Cross Bows negated 2 dragons....now she has dozens and there's only 1.)
Phrasing
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Urban Ag said:

The dragon standing just outside range of her projectiles is still very relevant. You're absolutely correct in that Dany had such a small force with her that they could easily rain arrows all over them and send out cavalry through the gates to run them all down. Easily. But they still fear the dragon.
Exactly. They got lucky with the first one in an amush (no matter how unrealistic - it is what it is). They are still very much afraid of the other one. They are not going to just assume to take it down with the turbo charged cross bows. If they miss Cersei is extra crispy toast - its a big risk.
Joseph Parrish
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Urban Ag said:

But they still fear the dragon.
They will have to deal with Drogon in any scenario though. And I agree, Cersei beheading Missandei was provocation...not an act of fear.
Zombie Jon Snow
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M.C. Swag said:

The two situations don't equate man. The second Cersei kills Dany in the pit is the second that Drogon fire annihilates everyone in that courtyard. It was a lose/lose proposition. That is not even close to what could happen now with her surrounded by Super Cross Bows. Dany offers no threat to Cersei. And it makes no sense to 'honor' the parlay when you just executed Missandei with obvious intentions of provocation. You're completely glossing over that. Cersei killed Missandei, but spared Tyrion? Why? She literally sent an assassin to kill him. Wouldn't see relish in doing the deed herself? C'mon man. You can't keep goal tending this one.

Drogon was not there. He flew off and the dragons are neither seen nor heard again meaning they are not close. They could have killed her and gotten into hiding before he came back.


As for this one - I was talking about why they didn't shoot the dragon or the unsullied from distance or just send out their army. Executing Missandei was a given like Rickon. Captive pawns are expendable and are used to make a point. Admittedly the Tyrion part is poor writing he would never have gone that close. And she should have killed him.
M.C. Swag
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kraut said:

M.C. Swag said:

The two situations don't equate man. The second Cersei kills Dany in the pit is the second that Drogon fire annihilates everyone in that courtyard. It was a lose/lose proposition. That is not even close to what could happen now with her surrounded by Super Cross Bows. Dany offers no threat to Cersei. And it makes no sense to 'honor' the parlay when you just executed Missandei with obvious intentions of provocation. You're completely glossing over that. Cersei killed Missandei, but spared Tyrion? Why? She literally sent an assassin to kill him. Wouldn't see relish in doing the deed herself? C'mon man. You can't keep goal tending this one.
Cercei told Danni to surrender unconditionally or Missandei dies. She was keeping her word at the parlay.
So she honors the pledge to kill Missandei, but not to send an army north? She honors the rules of parlay, but blowing up a church is fair game? C'mon man.
cbr
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

I'm not gonna last word you BCG - I have no problem with that and I'm not childish so I don't feel the need to retort to any insults particularly.


But on the actual argument - which I have not responded to at all for 11 pages because I thought it was dumb - I will say finally and only once:


I think the entire argument is asinine - both sides.


It has zero to do with physics, it has zero to do with range or how they got there or the weapons capability or anything of that sort.


The ENTIRE REASON they did not shoot the dragon is the same reason they did not shoot Tyrion, shoot the small number of Unsullied, or take shots at the Queen who was right there, or send out a regiment to take out that small group, etc.

They agreed to a parlay there. That's why the two advisors met halfway to discuss terms. They obviously did not come to attack and both Queens were out there (on foot and in dresses) which they never would be if any fighting was going to take place.

That's it.

Generally speaking you don't shoot during an armistice discussion. You may put on a show of arms as they did but shooting is frowned upon - Qyburn was at risk out there for one thing. A minor non combatant as a captive was executed for dramatic effect but otherwise there was not going to be any shooting.


Lol what!? You mean like you dont blow up the courtroom to avoid your trial or kill babies to avoid a rival? You do if its your arch enemy. That whole passle of 100 fools in front of the gate would be dead instantly if anyone is in character for that scene.
M.C. Swag
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

M.C. Swag said:

The two situations don't equate man. The second Cersei kills Dany in the pit is the second that Drogon fire annihilates everyone in that courtyard. It was a lose/lose proposition. That is not even close to what could happen now with her surrounded by Super Cross Bows. Dany offers no threat to Cersei. And it makes no sense to 'honor' the parlay when you just executed Missandei with obvious intentions of provocation. You're completely glossing over that. Cersei killed Missandei, but spared Tyrion? Why? She literally sent an assassin to kill him. Wouldn't see relish in doing the deed herself? C'mon man. You can't keep goal tending this one.

Drogon was not there. He flew off and the dragons are neither seen nor heard again meaning they are not close. They could have killed her and gotten into hiding before he came back.
cbr
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Urban Ag said:

gigemJTH12 said:

Oh I took at as she just thinks the writing sucks.

I HOPE it's how you took it.
she been following to much Mark Hamill twitter
Yeah, that reaction pretty well confirms that the horrendous flameout of suckage continues.
Phrasing
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M.C. Swag said:

kraut said:

M.C. Swag said:

The two situations don't equate man. The second Cersei kills Dany in the pit is the second that Drogon fire annihilates everyone in that courtyard. It was a lose/lose proposition. That is not even close to what could happen now with her surrounded by Super Cross Bows. Dany offers no threat to Cersei. And it makes no sense to 'honor' the parlay when you just executed Missandei with obvious intentions of provocation. You're completely glossing over that. Cersei killed Missandei, but spared Tyrion? Why? She literally sent an assassin to kill him. Wouldn't see relish in doing the deed herself? C'mon man. You can't keep goal tending this one.
Cercei told Danni to surrender unconditionally or Missandei dies. She was keeping her word at the parlay.
So she honors the pledge to kill Missandei, but not to send an army north? She honors the rules of parlay, but blowing up a church is fair game? C'mon man.
I think you can argue it from either side - but with the show writing the way it is this season, you have to have certain assumptions, even if they are not 100% logical in the scientific/physics world:

(1) Drogon was out of range of the ballistas
(2) Dany and her small contingent was out of range of the arrows
(3) Tryion came into range of the arrows when he walked past Qyburn (this is why the archers nocked and pulled back)
(4) Cersei chose not to kill him for some reason. I think because killing him meant losing Qyburn in this scenario. Or it could have been she wanted to kill him herself up close - who knows.
(5) If she sends out an army to kill everyone, she risks a dragon attack. Killing Drogon with the crossbows is not 100% - it is still a risk.
chipotle
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clinker03 said:

(1) Drogon was out of range of the ballistas







I'm going to chalk this up to being bad theatrics.
Urban Ag
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Game over man. Game over.

Let's just pack it in. Cersei wins. Why even watch the last two episodes?

You guys have effectively whittled down a fantasy series to expecting, demanding, Tom Clancy level detail of tactics, strategy, predictability, and realism.

You win. I shall abandon my quest for enjoyment of S8. I bend the knee to House Complainer, not the First of Their Name, The Unentertained, Kings of the Gripes, Khals of Message Board Warriors, Breakers of GOT Fans, and Fathers of Engineering, War Strategy, and Human Psychology.
jtstanley4621
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They could have just made the direwolves NORMAL sized dogs for the TV show. Yes, they're huge in the books. But just say something like they're extra strong or smart or something. Then you don't have to have any CG involved with them and they can be used as normal and you won't have to just randomly edit them in scenes. Never understood why they didn't just do that.
bangobango
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M.C. Swag said:

The two situations don't equate man. The second Cersei kills Dany in the pit is the second that Drogon fire annihilates everyone in that courtyard. It was a lose/lose proposition. That is not even close to what could happen now with her surrounded by Super Cross Bows. Dany offers no threat to Cersei. And it makes no sense to 'honor' the parlay when you just executed Missandei with obvious intentions of provocation. You're completely glossing over that. Cersei killed Missandei, but spared Tyrion? Why? She literally sent an assassin to kill him. Wouldn't see relish in doing the deed herself? C'mon man. You can't keep goal tending this one.
Look, I give this show a lot of grief, and I think that scene was pretty poorly done and shot, but it was a parlay. Missandei was a POW, so executing her probably does not violate the terms of a parlay. Shooting Tyrion does violate terms of a parlay.

The entire premise of Tyrion trying so hard to save Cersei is ridiculous anyways. This is the guy who shot his father in the heart with a cross bow and strangled the woman he loves to death. He would not be working this hard to save a woman trying to kill him and he is not so stupid as to be completely oblivious to her true nature. They have completely killed Tyrion's character b/c they cannot think of anything for him to do.
Malcolm52
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People keep saying Dany and co were out of range of arrows. Ok fine. Guess what though? They were not out of range of those effing crossbows. Fire a couple bolts into them and waste Dany! At least kill Tyrion!
cbr
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clinker03 said:

M.C. Swag said:

kraut said:

M.C. Swag said:

The two situations don't equate man. The second Cersei kills Dany in the pit is the second that Drogon fire annihilates everyone in that courtyard. It was a lose/lose proposition. That is not even close to what could happen now with her surrounded by Super Cross Bows. Dany offers no threat to Cersei. And it makes no sense to 'honor' the parlay when you just executed Missandei with obvious intentions of provocation. You're completely glossing over that. Cersei killed Missandei, but spared Tyrion? Why? She literally sent an assassin to kill him. Wouldn't see relish in doing the deed herself? C'mon man. You can't keep goal tending this one.
Cercei told Danni to surrender unconditionally or Missandei dies. She was keeping her word at the parlay.
So she honors the pledge to kill Missandei, but not to send an army north? She honors the rules of parlay, but blowing up a church is fair game? C'mon man.
I think you can argue it from either side - but with the show writing the way it is this season, you have to have certain assumptions, even if they are not 100% logical in the scientific/physics world:

(1) Drogon was out of range of the ballistas
(2) Dany and her small contingent was out of range of the arrows
(3) Tryion came into range of the arrows when he walked past Qyburn (this is why the archers nocked and pulled back)
(4) Cersei chose not to kill him for some reason. I think because killing him meant losing Qyburn in this scenario. Or it could have been she wanted to kill him herself up close - who knows.
(5) If she sends out an army to kill everyone, she risks a dragon attack. Killing Drogon with the crossbows is not 100% - it is still a risk.
Good effort. I just cant see it. They have to face the dragon sometime. It will never get better than while its cowering half a mile away on an open field in broad daylight with the mother standing in an open field just out of arrow range and no army anywhere. It will never, could never, ever get easier than just killing them right there.

Ride out and pin cushion those fools and if the dragon comes up to help pin cushion that sucker too.

Its absolutely impossible for the good guys to be that stupid to march up like that with your dragon cowering in fear out of range. Its literally impossible for anyone to be that stupid. And its impossible for the bad guys to be stupid enough not to waste them right there since they did. No one could possibly be that stupid.

Its also impossible for them to think cersi was going to surrender or that she was not going to kill missandre, so what was the point of marching up to the gate before your army even arrives? Of course no way she doesnt kill tyrion either, but thats irrelevant because there is no way she doesnt kill them all.

For that matter, given their propensity for being ambushed, its frankly absurd to be kicking dust up outside kl without your army anyway. And impossible that cersi didnt have scouts, so why didnt they ambush them?

The whole thing is so completely absurd i just cant really suspend disbelief and enjoy it. There was never a single scene in 7 seasons that i didnt enjoy. 8-1 and 2 were sort of off, but ok. I enjoyed 3 a lot, despite some logic issues, and the things people griped about here didnt really bother me. But this episode was really incredibly bad.
Urban Ag
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clinker03 said:

M.C. Swag said:

kraut said:

M.C. Swag said:

The two situations don't equate man. The second Cersei kills Dany in the pit is the second that Drogon fire annihilates everyone in that courtyard. It was a lose/lose proposition. That is not even close to what could happen now with her surrounded by Super Cross Bows. Dany offers no threat to Cersei. And it makes no sense to 'honor' the parlay when you just executed Missandei with obvious intentions of provocation. You're completely glossing over that. Cersei killed Missandei, but spared Tyrion? Why? She literally sent an assassin to kill him. Wouldn't see relish in doing the deed herself? C'mon man. You can't keep goal tending this one.
Cercei told Danni to surrender unconditionally or Missandei dies. She was keeping her word at the parlay.
So she honors the pledge to kill Missandei, but not to send an army north? She honors the rules of parlay, but blowing up a church is fair game? C'mon man.
I think you can argue it from either side - but with the show writing the way it is this season, you have to have certain assumptions, even if they are not 100% logical in the scientific/physics world:

(1) Drogon was out of range of the ballistas
(2) Dany and her small contingent was out of range of the arrows
(3) Tryion came into range of the arrows when he walked past Qyburn (this is why the archers nocked and pulled back)
(4) Cersei chose not to kill him for some reason. I think because killing him meant losing Qyburn in this scenario. Or it could have been she wanted to kill him herself up close - who knows.
(5) If she sends out an army to kill everyone, she risks a dragon attack. Killing Drogon with the crossbows is not 100% - it is still a risk.
Quote:

(4) Cersei chose not to kill him for some reason. I think because killing him meant losing Qyburn in this scenario.

And no woman wants to change gynos mid pregnancy. Great point.
bangobango
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Urban Ag said:

Game over man. Game over.

Let's just pack it in. Cersei wins. Why even watch the last two episodes?

You guys have effectively whittled down a fantasy series to expecting, demanding, Tom Clancy level detail of tactics, strategy, predictability, and realism.

You win. I shall abandon my quest for enjoyment of S8. I bend the knee to House Complainer, not the First of Their Name, The Unentertained, Kings of the Gripes, Khals of Message Board Warriors, Breakers of GOT Fans, and Fathers of Engineering, War Strategy, and Human Psychology.
You guys get so triggered by this stuff. It's going to be okay. I promise.
Brian Earl Spilner
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I'm come around to the idea that Tyrion is trying so hard to save Cersei's baby to atone for the deaths of Myrcella and Tommen. (Which Cersei has managed to guilt him into believing was his fault.)

He probably feels the weight of the destruction of House Lannister on his shoulders.
DartAg1970
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With regards to Cersei not killing Tyrion. I think she has proven several times:

1. Doesn't let the Mountain kill Tyrion after the Dragon Pit meeting
2. Doesn't let the Mountain kill Jaime after he says he's going North

that she is incapable of actually killing her family. Even Tyrion, which is why I think she hired Bronn to do it before they ever made it to King's Landing. It would have been easier for her to just hear they are dead rather than actually be there, see it, and/or give the order to do it.

In the end I don't think she has it in her to do it.
Phrasing
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Urban Ag said:




And no woman wants to change gynos mid pregnancy. Great point.
I mean, you have to get a whole new file, fill out all new forms, get insurance updated - it's a major pain in the ass....
n_touch
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I have enjoyed how sometimes the look large like when Arya was surrounded by them and Ghost when laying by Jon. Yet others they look like a normal dog in size.
canadiaggie
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jtstanley4621 said:

They could have just made the direwolves NORMAL sized dogs for the TV show. Yes, they're huge in the books. But just say something like they're extra strong or smart or something. Then you don't have to have any CG involved with them and they can be used as normal and you won't have to just randomly edit them in scenes. Never understood why they didn't just do that.


Yeah I was thinking it might be cheaper and more cost effective to have someone's fat bear of a malamute stand in as ghost
M.C. Swag
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I'm just asking why she didn't kill Tyrion. Everything else, I'm ok with. But deciding to not kill Tyrion only because of some rules of propriety feels off about what we know about Cersei.
exitone
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Not sure if it has been mentioned here, but apparently the plot for the final episodes, and a copy of the actual Finale has been leaked on line. Be careful not to stumble across spoilers.

I was running through the Google or Bing newsfeed earlier this morning (cant remember which), and there was a headline showing a new fan theory. If that fan theory actually spun up from someone that had access to the leak, it would kind of make sense.

... Just saying, be careful of the intraweb thingy for the next two weeks....
bangobango
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DartAg1970 said:

With regards to Cersei not killing Tyrion. I think she has proven several times:

1. Doesn't let the Mountain kill Tyrion after the Dragon Pit meeting
2. Doesn't let the Mountain kill Jaime after he says he's going North

that she is incapable of actually killing her family. Even Tyrion, which is why I think she hired Bronn to do it before they ever made it to King's Landing. It would have been easier for her to just hear they are dead rather than actually be there, see it, and/or give the order to do it.

In the end I don't think she has it in her to do it.
This is just an aside, and it probably has already been said on this thread, but I just learned it so I am going to share it.

According to my wife, the reason Qyburn came to Bronn with the murder contract is because Bronn and Cersei dated in real life and had a really bad breakup. It's now in their contract that they cannot be in the same scenes together.

I await the german bomb moon posts.
Phrasing
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Quote:

Its also impossible for them to think cersi was going to surrender or that she was not going to kill missandre, so what was the point of marching up to the gate before your army even arrives? Of course no way she doesnt kill tyrion either, but thats irrelevant because there is no way she doesnt kill them all.
I don't think they had any intention of her surrendering. The scene right before it, they made it clear that they were just asking her to surrender so that when Dany killed everyone in King's landing, the survivors knew that she gave Cersei a peaceful option and that death and destruction wasn't their first choice. Argue it all you want, but that's what the show writers were going for.
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