I certainly agree. I won't ever stop seeing Star Wars. I saw The Last Jedi three times despite thinking it was hot garbage. But other than Rogue One, I have viewed these new movies no differently than going to see something like The Meg, for instance; just another movie to see.

To return to the MCU, characters like Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, and Black Panther don't move the needle for me. They are great characters, yes, but they are not the main show when talking about an Avengers movie. I am a big Cap fan, and I also really like Iron Man. I suspect Cap will sacrifice himself in defeating Thanos in the next movie, but regardless of how it happens, Cap is done in this series. So these will just become another movie to see.

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

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I certainly agree. I won't ever stop seeing Star Wars. I saw The Last Jedi three times despite thinking it was hot garbage. But other than Rogue One, I have viewed these new movies no differently than going to see something like The Meg, for instance; just another movie to see.

To return to the MCU, characters like Doctor Strange, Spider-Man, and Black Panther don't move the needle for me. They are great characters, yes, but they are not the main show when talking about an Avengers movie. I am a big Cap fan, and I also really like Iron Man. I suspect Cap will sacrifice himself in defeating Thanos in the next movie, but regardless of how it happens, Cap is done in this series. So these will just become another movie to see.

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Iron Man and Cap are the "main show" because the MCU built them up to be with 100 movies. Now we'll get a bunch of movies with the new guys. It's not like Spider-ManMan is a small time character or they guy some bum actor to play him. He's probably the biggest and most well known in all of Marvel. I think it'll become a lot easier to get into Strange & Panther if we're not consumed by the rest of the old crew.

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Iron Man and Cap are the "main show" because the MCU built them up to be with 100 movies. Now we'll get a bunch of movies with the new guys. It's not like Spider-ManMan is a small time character or they guy some bum actor to play him. He's probably the biggest and most well known in all of Marvel. I think it'll become a lot easier to get into Strange & Panther if we're not consumed by the rest of the old crew.

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Never said Spider-Man was a small time character. But that character has never been one that I particularly cared about, one way or the other. Probably because I absolutely loathed, entirely, that gay song "Spider-Man ... Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can ..." Like so many of the other Marvel characters, I had heard of Doctor Strange but knew absolutely nothing about him (like Iron Man and Thor, for instance). I grew up largely as a fan of Superman and Batman, watching the awful Hulk and Wonder Woman TV series, and aware of Captain America.

I will see the movies that follow the next Avengers, and I'll probably enjoy them. And who knows, perhaps they'll blow me away like the original Iron Man did.

I love that Spiderman song. Growing up in the 60's, it's iconic to me, as are Lynda Carter and Lou Ferrigno and Adam West. Those shows weren't awful back in the 60's and 70's, just maybe compared to today's technology-rich shows.

I've always been a DC guy - Batman, Flash, and GL especially - but I love love love the Marvel movies and how they all tie together.

I saw the first three SW movies, then the fourth and that's all. I haven't seen ANY of the most recent ones, although I guess I need to see Rogue One.

Isn't the new season of dare-devil out on netflix today?

What's stopping them from developing new characters that have never been in Marvel before? Not everything has to be from the comics does it?

And how does Adam play in? I'm assuming he will be the villain in GOTGV3, but his character is too important to not have a farther reaching arch.

Don't forget, X-Men and F4 could also be joining the universe which would give a huge spark. Imagine Tony and Cap gone, Thor back doing space things, Guardians off world somewhere, most of the excitement of the original 3 phases gone.. but now we get a rebooted and re-energized Xmen. They could even almost fast forward to present day from the current Xmen and keep a lot of the same actors.. McAvoy, Fassbender, Turner, Lawrence, Hoult, etc. They would have to completely ignore Quicksilver. Maybe Dark Phoenix kills him off so he's dead in both iterations.

FightinTexasAg15 said:

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Isn't the new season of dare-devil out on netflix today?

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Yes its out

Sex Panther said:

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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

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Never said Spider-Man was a small time character. But that character has never been one that I particularly cared about, one way or the other. Probably because I absolutely loathed, entirely, that gay song "Spider-Man ... Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can ..."

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Ruffling feathers, I see. The song sucks. And who the heck are you calling 'kid'?

It's been said before, but there's absolutely no way they roll in the current X-Men franchise as-is. The way I see it, there are three options:

1) The Fox X-Men have been here all along. This is problematic, because in the new Fox universe, mutants have been in the public spotlight since the 1970s.

2) Somehow the realities come together. Avengers 4 will have been wrapped up long before the Fox acquisition is finalized, it's too late to add some kind of "we un-did the Snap but now two realities have merged" subplot or post-credits for that movie.

Either option handcuffs the MCU to some unfortunate storytelling and casting developments. For example, Wolverine is gone. Apocalypse is dead. All the characters are either teleported in from the 90s, or they've caught up to real time and Jean Gray is 45, Beast is in his 70s and Magneto is pushing 90. Also Wolverine is gone, Apocalypse is dead, etc.

I think the only option that makes sense is 3) reboot.

That said, there's still a lot of untapped storytelling potential, even after all the films we've seen. Kind of like with Spider-Man: Homecoming, I think you can go back to the roots while using villains we've never seen before. Maybe the first film focuses on the original team (Angel, Beast, Iceman, Cyclops and Jean Grey). Kitty Pryde. Wait to introduce Wolverine or Magneto. You've still got Mister Sinister, or you can do Sabretooth or Apocalypse right. Avengers vs. X-Men, the Morlocks, the Mutant Massacre, Juggernaut, Omega Red, the Shi'ar, the Sentinels, the Brotherhood of Mutants, Mastermind. All kinds of stuff.

I can't wait for when the Fantastic Four and X-Men get rolled in, and I think that will definitely boost people's fading interest, but we're probably half a decade away from seeing any of that. They'll find a way to make it all fit together as part of the larger MCU. But who knows what that will look like by then. My guess is Fantastic Four first, and slowly start rebuilding the X-teams after that. And actually developing characters that aren't Logan, Xavier, Mystique or Magneto.

Bruce Almighty said:

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FightinTexasAg15 said:

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Isn't the new season of dare-devil out on netflix today?

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Yes its out

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Anyone know if I will have had to have watched the Defenders first?

I've seen the first two seasons of Daredevil but couldn't get through two episodes of the Defenders before I got bored.

I guess I've never really thought about the actual integration in much detail, but you bring up some interesting points.

First of all, there's no way they bring in the the current roster/iteration. Marvel will definitely reboot all the X-Men/Fantastic Four characters. But does it bother anyone else that if/when the X-Men/Fantastic Four are integrated into the MCU - even if in three to five years or so - they might not seem that "special" in this universe? I thought the whole point of the X-Men is that they're viewed as a threat to humanity by regular ol' humans. As far as I've understood it (I've never read an X-Men comic, only seen the movies), humanity was about as normal as can be, and then boom, mutants started popping up here and there and that's kind of the whole conceit. That's where all the drama/friction comes from.

So how is it going to work if they're introduced into a world that's already seen superheroes, aliens, and gods; a world in which half the population also disappeared (and presumably comes back) at the hand of an intergalactic/interdimensional space god? Is anyone in that universe even going to give a sh*t if a dude with claws shows up, or bat an eyelash at a woman who can control the weather? I just feel like the whole conflict is lost - they're not really "the others" in this world - they're just more of the same.

Yes, it will be "cool" to see Wolverine and Spider-Man team up, and share the same cinematic space, but at what cost to the conceit that makes the X-Men... the X-Men? In all likelihood, by the time the X-Men are introduced, I'm assuming Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc, will all be long gone anyway. So a lot of the fun team-ups probably won't even get to happen.

This is all a long of way of saying that Feige certainly has his work cut out for him, because I have no idea how to address this issue. In fact, I'm going to make a prediction right now and say that Feige ultimately won't even be the one tasked with solving this problem at all. I bet he moves on before then, and then who knows where the hell this whole thing goes after that.

A big factor in the X-Men equation is that they are kids. Or at least their stories revolve around kids. That's a pretty unique dimension to add to the MCU.

I guess, but so is Spider-Man, and that dynamic was explored about as well as it could be explored in Homecoming. I'm not saying there's not a cool, unique way to do it, I just have absolutely no idea how they're going to pull it off, seeing as the basic conceit seems to be rendered moot in this world.

I think a few things separate the mutant population from your "average" superpowered people. At least this is the way I've always seen it.

1) The quantity. This is usually presented as a growing epidemic, whereas the world technically only has like 20 "superheroes" at this time, give or take.

2) The fear that they're the evolutionary next step. "Homo superior." They're going to replace us normal folks, like when the Neanderthals were exterminated by Homo sapiens.

3) It could be anyone. Most of the enhanced individuals we know now are scientists and soldiers, but this could strike at any moment. They might even walk among you and you wouldn't even know it.

4) It tends to manifest at puberty, like Alias said above. So instead of a trained soldier, this could be your son, or your neighbor's kid. Or worst yet, the bully at your kid's school. What if that bully can't control his powers.

5) Many mutants - and I think this gets glossed over in some of the more recent X-men films - are grotesque as hell. So in a lot of ways, it's not the "I'm normal but I have claws" types, like Wolverine, Jean Grey, Iceman, etc. but rather the "I'm a freak of nature and people feel threatened or horrified as soon as I enter the room" types that represent mutants best, like Angel, Beast, Sabretooth or Nightcrawler.

So theoretically, that all combines into a scary vision of where our world is headed. Nasty, out-of-control, deadly people that either walk among you and you don't realize it, or they're in your kid's school and could kill your kid's entire class with just a thought. And they're going to, because their evolutionary destiny is to replace us!

That kind of thing. The Morlocks are like scary mutant homeless, but it kind of fits the image pretty well - freaky, distorted beings that feel outcast by society and might feel like they need to fight back, with any means necessary, to survive.

i can't remember if i saw the comment here early in the thread, or on reddit, but a point to be made about the X-Men is that it is genetic. All of the Earth-based heroes so far in the MCU got their abilities through experimentation/augmentation of some sort.

X-Men hits closer to home with fear of the unknown. Some mutants are bad, some look gruesome. They go to your kid's school, they could be your neighbor. They are mixed within the general population, and you don't even know it.

Great points, which just gave me an idea...

What if an event in the MCU is what starts causing the mutations?

Instead of it being a natural evolution thing, what if, say, a small percentage of the people who come back from Thanos' snap now have a genetic mutation (some of which are apparent, some of which aren't at all). I'm not saying that should be the event, only that that's an example of what I'm talking about.

Point being, to see the mutations popping up in real time, and potentially have them be a result of some interdimensional skirmish on Earth or something, could be a cool way to show the "consequences" of all this superhero warfare. Now everyone is being affected by this, and it's all potentially changing life as we know it.

How core is the "natural evolution" aspect to mutants/the X-Men in general? How important is it that mutants are *born* with a mutation vs. randomly "catching" a mutation instead? Can the former be swept aside for more of a cause-and-effect conceit?

I see this one come up from time to time as far as how you could naturally roll this into the universe. My only problem with this would be that it would negate a lot of that untold history of a few mutants, like Wolverine or Magneto or Apocalypse or Namor, that have histories that go way back before 2018.

I could be wrong on this, but I don't know if natural evolution was always the explanation for it. I want to say that in the 60s it was maybe radiation, or some kind of unknown possibility like that. All I remember for sure is on the 90s cartoon, someone asks where mutants even come from and Beast lists some of the more popular theories - gamma rays, pollution, ozone depletion, or maybe just too much television. (How 90s!)

So they could certainly do something like, the power of the Infinity Gauntlet left some with unexplainable changes to their DNA, but then it'd be harder to go back and say "Apocalypse was born in ancient Egypt and still lives today" or things like that.

Interestingly, some people think they're already laying the groundwork for some kind of retcon. Marvel Studios released a "Visual Dictionary" and the portion for Scarlet Witch says this. Bolded for emphasis:

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"She may be called Scarlet Witch, but Wanda's powers aren't derived from the occult. Whether it altered her or merely unlocked something latent inside Wanda, the Infinity Stone on Loki's scepter bestowed incredible powers of the mind. Wanda's internal neuro-electric interface allows her to conjure blasts of red telekinetic energy. She can also use this energy to create barriers, levitate and move objects; to communicate and read thoughts by telepathy; and even to manipulate the minds of others."

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What if an event in the MCU is what starts causing the mutations?

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Just do the opposite of the comic "House of M" where Scarlet Witch went a little crazy and reduced the number of mutants from millions to a few hundred.

Very interesting. And yeah, there would then definitely be an issue of how do they address any historical mutants, Wolverine's past, etc. It's a pickle for sure.

Also, would the "creation/discovery" of mutants dovetail into the "powered beings" registration thing that came out of Civil War?

So you're actually touching on how Agents of SHIELD approached things, a "terrigen" was released that triggered latent abilities in some people that were exposed to it and they became Inhumans. I haven't watched the last seasaon or two so I don't know how they followed that up.

The Fox show The Gifted has tackled mutants in a more subtle way but pretty true to the comics, its set in modern day and mutations have been known to the public for a decade or so and are becoming more common (manifesting at puberty). Our heroes are a family with kids who are mutants that end up on the run and needing help from an X-type group of mutants.

That's a good question. There's certainly a lot they could do for something like that, to integrate the mutant storyline with the MCU setting. They could also try the Mutant Registration Act, and potentially force the Avengers to apprehend mutant dissidents (AvX), or maybe use a government-sponsored team like the Thunderbolts or X-Factor to try and track them down.

We're probably a few years away from that kind of thing, but the Mutant Registration Act is - if memory serves - a topic on the very first episode of the 90s cartoon. I assume the Sokovia Accords will be long gone by 2024 or whenever, but they could introduce a similar law that discriminates against mutants, easily.

MooreTrucker said:

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Also, would the "creation/discovery" of mutants dovetail into the "powered beings" registration thing that came out of Civil War?

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This is where you start to just have to making things up, at least per a canon perspective. The original Civil War storyline was triggered by a team of mutant heroes leveling a town and killing thousands (as you may know).

I don't know how you can introduce mutants without tying that into Civil War as a past event somehow, as TCTTS mentioned it's definitely an interesting storytelling challenge. I think you could have some mutants who have been around but not "heroes" (i.e. just move the discovery of Wolverine up into the present) and then use some sort of mutant outbreak as a triggering event.

make it to when the snap is undone, some people that were originally snapped are not brought back whole.

• the gauntlet was damaged at the end of IW, so not as powerful and perfect
• which ever avenger ends up undoing the snap, was not as strong as thanos (perhaps the act of undoing it actually kills this avenger permanently).
• The weakened state of the glove/avenger means that there are some "errors" made to some of the reanimated people.

fig96 said:

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MooreTrucker said:

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Also, would the "creation/discovery" of mutants dovetail into the "powered beings" registration thing that came out of Civil War?

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This is where you start to just have to making things up, at least per a canon perspective. The original Civil War storyline was triggered by a team of mutant heroes leveling a town and killing thousands (as you may know).

I don't know how you can introduce mutants without tying that into Civil War as a past event somehow, as TCTTS mentioned it's definitely an interesting storytelling challenge. I think you could have some mutants who have been around but not "heroes" (i.e. just move the discovery of Wolverine up into the present) and then use some sort of mutant outbreak as a triggering event.

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True, but I was speaking more to the split of the Avengers over the registration of powered beings than the act that caused it all. And how that registration and the Mutant Registration Act can be linked/combined in the story.

TexasAggie_02 said:

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make it to when the snap is undone, some people that were originally snapped are not brought back whole.

• the gauntlet was damaged at the end of IW, so not as powerful and perfect
• which ever avenger ends up undoing the snap, was not as strong as thanos (perhaps the act of undoing it actually kills this avenger permanently).
• The weakened state of the glove/avenger means that there are some "errors" made to some of the reanimated people.

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I can see something like this, but doubt it happens that way.

Maybe you get the Murlocks like this (all the Murlocks are deformed in some way), so it's an obvious mutant thing, whereas others are able to hide it better.

TCTTS said:

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Great points, which just gave me an idea...

What if an event in the MCU is what starts causing the mutations?

Instead of it being a natural evolution thing, what if, say, a small percentage of the people who come back from Thanos' snap now have a genetic mutation (some of which are apparent, some of which aren't at all). I'm not saying that should be the event, only that that's an example of what I'm talking about.

Point being, to see the mutations popping up in real time, and potentially have them be a result of some interdimensional skirmish on Earth or something, could be a cool way to show the "consequences" of all this superhero warfare. Now everyone is being affected by this, and it's all potentially changing life as we know it.

How core is the "natural evolution" aspect to mutants/the X-Men in general? How important is it that mutants are *born* with a mutation vs. randomly "catching" a mutation instead? Can the former be swept aside for more of a cause-and-effect conceit?

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I was just thinking the same thing.

Just forget the Xmen origins from the comics. Use familiar characters.. but before the snap they were just normal people.

Start with a small batch and grow it from there as people start to realize what's happening to them.

I'm with ya.

MooreTrucker said:

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TexasAggie_02 said:

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make it to when the snap is undone, some people that were originally snapped are not brought back whole.

• the gauntlet was damaged at the end of IW, so not as powerful and perfect
• which ever avenger ends up undoing the snap, was not as strong as thanos (perhaps the act of undoing it actually kills this avenger permanently).
• The weakened state of the glove/avenger means that there are some "errors" made to some of the reanimated people.

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Ah, comics, where you have to add "permanently" to "kills".

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hey, they could've done a re shoot where Drax takes the gauntlet says "i'm coming home girls" and undoes everything, killing him in the process. His story arc is complete and Disney/Marvel are free from him threatening to boycott GOTG3

We need an alternate universe. Something big happens in it and brings in mutants to the current one we all know in love. Some mutants are already established (Wolverine, Prof X, Mag) but they also bring the x gene to this universe. We start to get teenagers turning to mutants. This starts up a recruitment war between Prof X and Mag. It leads to a great war between X-Men & Avengers vs Mutants that want to destroy mankind.