AliasMan02 said:

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fig96 said:

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I maintain that TFA was the exact movie we needed at that point in time.

It was the first time in a long time that Star Wars truly felt like Star Wars again.

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I've always contended the same. The issue was the things it set in motion with no plan to resolve.

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Looking at it as part of the new trilogy, no argument.

Flashdiaz said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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fig96 said:

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I maintain that TFA was the exact movie we needed at that point in time.

It was the first time in a long time that Star Wars truly felt like Star Wars again.

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I've always contended the same. The issue was the things it set in motion with no plan to resolve.

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this gets me every time. How the hell do you take the world's largest, most profitable media franchise and not have a plan for it? It's like having a mansion built and tell them to just go ahead and build the foundation without plans for what is going on top and we'll figure out the rest later. Such a fundamental aspect of just about any project in any industry.

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To be fair, Lucas never had a plan with the other trilogies, either.

The url is a bit click-baity, but Liam Neeson thinks there's a bit too much happening with Star Wars these days

https://variety.com/2023/film/news/liam-neeson-disses-star-wars-hurt-spinoffs-1235526503/

AliasMan02 said:

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Flashdiaz said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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fig96 said:

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I maintain that TFA was the exact movie we needed at that point in time.

It was the first time in a long time that Star Wars truly felt like Star Wars again.

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I've always contended the same. The issue was the things it set in motion with no plan to resolve.

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this gets me every time. How the hell do you take the world's largest, most profitable media franchise and not have a plan for it? It's like having a mansion built and tell them to just go ahead and build the foundation without plans for what is going on top and we'll figure out the rest later. Such a fundamental aspect of just about any project in any industry.

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To be fair, Lucas never had a plan with the other trilogies, either.

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I know... but that's no excuse to not have a rough plan. Just because that worked once doesn't mean it was going to work again, especially in an established and highly scrutinized franchise such as Star Wars.

Flashdiaz said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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Flashdiaz said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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fig96 said:

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I maintain that TFA was the exact movie we needed at that point in time.

It was the first time in a long time that Star Wars truly felt like Star Wars again.

---

I've always contended the same. The issue was the things it set in motion with no plan to resolve.

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this gets me every time. How the hell do you take the world's largest, most profitable media franchise and not have a plan for it? It's like having a mansion built and tell them to just go ahead and build the foundation without plans for what is going on top and we'll figure out the rest later. Such a fundamental aspect of just about any project in any industry.

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To be fair, Lucas never had a plan with the other trilogies, either.

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I know... but that's no excuse to not have a rough plan. Just because that worked once doesn't mean it was going to work again, especially in an established and highly scrutinized franchise such as Star Wars.

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Agree. I always assumed Disney would have a process for how it plans its work. I could see Lucasfilm not having that, just because it always relied on a single visionary for direction. But it seems crazy that a big corporate machine like Disney would be cool with JJ literally making up the story for TFA as he's filming it, and then walking off without a transition plan or rough outline of how it would all go.

Seems like we can debate The Last Jedi now...again?

Who wants to go first?

It sucked. EOA.

YouBet said:

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Seems like we can debate The Last Jedi now...again?

Who wants to go first?

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It was 10 times better than Avatar 2.

TCTTS said:

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Rey & Luke Plot Line = Good
Rey & Kylo Plot Line = Good
Poe, Leia, Holdo Plot Line = Too Preachy/Inert
Finn & Rose Plot Line = Terrible
Luke Dying = Dumb

The good parts get better with age, while the bad parts get worse with age.

In the end, Leia should have been the one to pull the "Holdo Maneuver," going out in a blaze of glory, while Luke should have been the one to live, finally dying in Episode IX.

I think that about sums it up for me.

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Snoke Dying = VERY DUMB AND SCREWED UP THE WHOLE THING

TCTTS said:

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Rey & Luke Plot Line = Good
Rey & Kylo Plot Line = Good
Poe, Leia, Holdo Plot Line = Too Preachy/Inert
Finn & Rose Plot Line = Terrible
Luke Dying = Dumb

The good parts get better with age, while the bad parts get worse with age.

In the end, Leia should have been the one to pull the "Holdo Maneuver," going out in a blaze of glory, while Luke should have been the one to live, finally dying in Episode IX.

I think that about sums it up for me.

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I'll go with this.

Will ask again in about 26-34 pages.

TCTTS said:

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Rey & Luke Plot Line = Good
Rey & Kylo Plot Line = Good
Poe, Leia, Holdo Plot Line = Too Preachy/Inert
Finn & Rose Plot Line = Terrible
Luke Dying = Dumb

The good parts get better with age, while the bad parts get worse with age.

In the end, Leia should have been the one to pull the "Holdo Maneuver," going out in a blaze of glory, while Luke should have been the one to live, finally dying in Episode IX.

I think that about sums it up for me.

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You missed the criticism of bombs "falling" in space!

TCTTS said:

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I'm torn.

Overall, I think Snoke was a highly underutilized character who definitely needed more screen time, and a bit more backstory/motivation. And yes, all things considered, he died too early.

That said, in a vacuum, I absolutely LOVE his death *scene* and the way he dies. That whole sequence is incredible.

But again, it's a sequence that probably should have served as the climax of the trilogy, not of the second movie.

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I can turn on TFA and watch it. I cannot do the same for the 2 movies after it. That really makes me sad and angry.

Isn't there a video showing all the unnecessary spins and kicks and flips in that fight between Rey and Ren and Snoke's guards?

Choreography = not so great. But it was thrilling in the moment.

Yes, and it's hilarious. Especially the part where the guy has Rey locked up in a strangle hold and inexplicably lets her go so she can turn and stab him with her dropped saber.


I still think that fight is cool, though.

Of all the things in the final trilogy, the force being used to teleport things bugs me the most for whatever reason.

Same. That was just too much of a leap for me.

No discussion of TLJ is complete without mentioning the utter brilliance of adding a "your mom" joke to the Star Wars universe.

AliasMan02 said:

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Flashdiaz said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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fig96 said:

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I maintain that TFA was the exact movie we needed at that point in time.

It was the first time in a long time that Star Wars truly felt like Star Wars again.

---

I've always contended the same. The issue was the things it set in motion with no plan to resolve.

---

this gets me every time. How the hell do you take the world's largest, most profitable media franchise and not have a plan for it? It's like having a mansion built and tell them to just go ahead and build the foundation without plans for what is going on top and we'll figure out the rest later. Such a fundamental aspect of just about any project in any industry.

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To be fair, Lucas never had a plan with the other trilogies, either.

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He had the outline of all the major beats in both trilogies.

And in particular for the prequels.

The Porkchop Express said:

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YouBet said:

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Seems like we can debate The Last Jedi now...again?

Who wants to go first?

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It was 10 times better than Avatar 2.

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Nice try.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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Flashdiaz said:

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AliasMan02 said:

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fig96 said:

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I maintain that TFA was the exact movie we needed at that point in time.

It was the first time in a long time that Star Wars truly felt like Star Wars again.

---

I've always contended the same. The issue was the things it set in motion with no plan to resolve.

---

this gets me every time. How the hell do you take the world's largest, most profitable media franchise and not have a plan for it? It's like having a mansion built and tell them to just go ahead and build the foundation without plans for what is going on top and we'll figure out the rest later. Such a fundamental aspect of just about any project in any industry.

---

To be fair, Lucas never had a plan with the other trilogies, either.

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He had the outline of all the major beats in both trilogies.

And in particular for the prequels.

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He absolutely did not for the OT. What little "plan" there was he didn't follow, so no credit given there. Very foundational elements like the Skywalker bloodline were all made up as the movies progressed.

PT had some, because it's a prequel and the ending is already set, but it so wildly departed from the OT canon and Lucas's own original vision for things like the Clone Wars that it's hard to call any of that a plan. I mean for Episode I he didn't have a first draft of a script until a couple of weeks before they started filming, not unlike JJ in TFA.


Edit to give some credit: Something Lucas did follow through from the beginning was the three part arc for the Emperor. Mentioned in 1, glimpsed in 2, big bad in 3.

But the really big things, like Vader being Luke's father is well established as being invented for Empire. Likewise Leia being Luke's sister was not the case until Jedi. Issues like the second Death Star and the Ewoks were such radical departures from any plan that Gary Kurtz quit over it.

Vader being Luke's father isn't such a huge departure from what he established in ANH, to be fair.

We know that Vader was Obi-Wan's apprentice and betrayed him. We know that Luke's father was also a Jedi.

Yes, they were two separate people at first, but making them the same person isn't such a massive change from what his original outline likely was. He obviously knew Luke had to fight Vader and that Vader would have to finally defeat the Emperor.

Also I know people say there's no way he knew Leia was Luke's sister until ROTJ, but I definitely think he knew as early as ESB, what with Leia clearly having force ability to hear Luke calling out to her.

In either case, there was MUCH more of a plan for both of his trilogies than there ever was for the sequels. They literally did a 180 on Rey's backstory. First she's nobody, then she's REALLY nobody, then suddenly she's a Palpatine.

Finn was set up for great things and amounted to pretty much nothing in the end.

Snoke could've been great until he was just turned into one of countless Palp clones. Don't get me started on Palp returning and basically neutering Kylo immediately in the final movie.

I will admit, it's easy to criticize in retrospect, but I was insanely hyped before all three of those movies and I can't pretend I didn't have awesome experiences with them at the theater, in particular TFA. I'm kind of nostalgic for that era of Star Wars to be honest. Feels like so long ago now.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Vader being Luke's father isn't such a huge departure from what he established in ANH, to be fair.

We know that Vader was Obi-Wan's apprentice and betrayed him. We know that Luke's father was also a Jedi.

Yes, they were two separate people at first, but making them the same person isn't such a massive change from what his original outline likely was. He obviously knew Luke had to fight Vader and that Vader would have to finally defeat the Emperor.

Also I know people say there's no way he knew Leia was Luke's sister until ROTJ, but I definitely think he knew as early as ESB, what with Leia clearly having force ability to hear Luke calling out to her.

In either case, there was MUCH more of a plan for both of his trilogies than there ever was for the sequels. They literally did a 180 on Rey's backstory. First she's nobody, then she's REALLY nobody, then suddenly she's a Palpatine.

Finn was set up for great things and amounted to pretty much nothing in the end.

Snoke could've been great until he was just turned into one of countless Palp clones. Don't get me started on Palp returning and basically neutering Kylo immediately in the final movie.

I will easy it's easy to criticize in retrospect, but I was insanely hyped before all three of those movies and I can't pretend I didn't have awesome experiences with them at the theater, in particular TFA. I'm kind of nostalgic for that era of Star Wars to be honest. Feels like so long ago now.

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What sucks is pretty much all that ST beef was done in TROS.

- Daisy was told Rey was a nobody by JJ from the start. He reneged on the deal after it was so core to the whole theme of TLJ
- Finn was done dirty by JJ from the start, a casualty of him writing the story as he went and having nowhere for Finn to really fit. Imagine being told when cast that you are the new star of Star Wars, then being so relegated. In TLJ he had a good arc (choosing a side), the only arc really there for him, but a love interest that never connected with anyone. Then TROS totally squashed him by making him Force Sensitive but never actually making that clear in the movie? Probably the character screwed the most.
- Agree on all the Snoke stuff. TROS took what Kylo did in TLJ and made it a punchline.

Bottom line is JJ wrote TROS by Googling fan theories and speculation and stuffing as many into the movie as possible. I'll probably never get over it.

Here's a good mental exercise... What's worse, the sequel trilogy or the Christmas Special? If you could erase one from history? Which would it be?