Star Wars Discussion Thread
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Maybe I'm different from most of the critics of this movie in that I didn't have much of a problem at all with Luke's arc in the movie. The tweeted explanation that TCTTS posted is great and I have no problem if this was the intended story for Luke.
It's just that the writing wasn't that strong.
- The lame humor was just all wrong.
- The attempt to make Finn realize what the rebellion was all about and turn him into a true rebel not just a deserter was extremely hamhanded and involved a character (Rose) who truly was on the level of Jar Jar when it comes to usefulness and distraction from the movie.
- The attempt to make Poe a true leader just didn't make sense the way it was written.
I guess my problem isn't with the intended direction of the movie, it's just that I don't think Rian Johnson was up to the task of telling it in a clever way.
It's just that the writing wasn't that strong.
- The lame humor was just all wrong.
- The attempt to make Finn realize what the rebellion was all about and turn him into a true rebel not just a deserter was extremely hamhanded and involved a character (Rose) who truly was on the level of Jar Jar when it comes to usefulness and distraction from the movie.
- The attempt to make Poe a true leader just didn't make sense the way it was written.
I guess my problem isn't with the intended direction of the movie, it's just that I don't think Rian Johnson was up to the task of telling it in a clever way.
You're nitpicking. You could have said the same stuff about C-3po (in particular), and a other characters when Episodes IV, V, & VII came out...
aggiephoenix02 said:
You're nitpicking. You could have said the same stuff about C-3po (in particular), and a other characters when Episodes IV, V, & VII came out...
Did you mean to add /sarcasm at the end of your statement? Because if not then that's hilarious. You and I clearly have different definitions of nitpicking.
I actually pointed out major overall flaws in the writing of the movie (IMO of course). Major flaws in how the story arcs of major characters were written and you compare them to C3PO? And then call that nitpicking? Your logic actually confuses me, or maybe your attempt at humor does.
Your post made me smile...
aggiephoenix02 said:
Your post made me smile...
Well, hey if thats the end result of my posting on this thread then my time has been worth it.
And now I'm laughing. This was good...
Don't we have more context to Kylo's turn to the dark side than Vader's in the OT? Vader was simply "seduced by the dark side".
TCTTS said:
Pretty great thread about Luke's arc in TLJ. Still not quite the arc I wanted to see, but it at least explains why Johnson had to do what he did...
That said, this also reminded me how much I dislike Kylo's backstory. I really like his character as a whole, it's just that I STILL don't understand how he came to be so f*cked up by the dark side, or what was so bad about being Leia and Han's son or his childhood or whatever that caused him to turn in such dramatic fashion. I get that there's the Vader pull/connection and all that, but it's all so murky and whatever reasoning given feels so half-assed. In some ways, I wish they would have kept that part of Lucas' original 7/8/9 outline and had actually SHOWN Ben turn somehow. Granted, that might have been too Anakin-esque, and I get why Abrams chose to skip all that, but I just needed a better, more resonate explanation from these films.
Interesting read tying together everything from OT through TFA with Luke.
After in the same thread he also answers questions about Leia's force use float, Holdo/Acbar/Leia debate for the kill shot, the Rose/finn arc, etc....
He definitely has some different views and presents it well (no arguing or name calling).
I think he over glamorizes the Rose/finn stuff but to each his own.
Was gonna say this, but didn't want people to jump on me for always comparing to the OT.
All of his twitter thoughts in one article:TCTTS said:
Pretty great thread about Luke's arc in TLJ. Still not quite the arc I wanted to see, but it at least explains why Johnson had to do what he did...
http://bigshinyrobot.com/60239/luke-skywalkers-arc-star-wars-last-jedi/
Dude makes some awesome points. His first major point had never occurred to me before about why didn't he save Han.
Brian Earl Spilner said:
Was gonna say this, but didn't want people to jump on me for always comparing to the OT.
I hear ya. I looked at it more than once before hitting post.
FTACO97 said:All of his twitter thoughts in one article:TCTTS said:
Pretty great thread about Luke's arc in TLJ. Still not quite the arc I wanted to see, but it at least explains why Johnson had to do what he did...
http://bigshinyrobot.com/60239/luke-skywalkers-arc-star-wars-last-jedi/
Dude makes some awesome points. His first major point had never occurred to me before about why didn't he save Han.
While I understand what he is saying about not saving Han it also is not realistic.
I mean when he went to save friends before they were in danger, sure, but not standing on a catwalk about to be sliced in 2 danger. He would have had to teleport there or force project at least. I mean unless he is implying he would have sensed the danger before that and come sooner. But the danger was never really imminent except the danger they were all in as part of the resistance - until he saw Ben and was on the catwalk with him.
To me it is more like why Luke just wasn't there at all in TFA despite the dangers, etc. more so than why he did not save Han.
But it's still a valid point overall.
This goes back to something I posted right after TLJ came out. I get Luke's arc and guilt in the dark side rising in Ben, I just don't think Rian did a very good job of SHOWING that despair and it's seeds from the original movies. Luke's behavior is such a departure from his character from the OT, that (for me at least) more explanation of Luke's fall is warranted on the screen.
What I posted on the other thread on 12/20:
What I posted on the other thread on 12/20:
JJ's use of audio and visual clues with Rey and her saber flashback in TFA definitely, and effectively IMO, connected her story to the OT. Rian didn't really do that here. The fact bloggers and forum posters are having to continually expand on the nuances of Rian's vision for Luke's character path show it needed something more to make it effective for the audience.Quote:
One of the things that gave me pause was Luke and his desire to kill his nephew. I get the hermit/curmudgeon/elderly crisis thing he's turned into, but why a killer? What motivated him to want to kill Ben? That's straight up dark side right there. And that's what cleared it up for me.
Going back to the duel in ROTJ, Luke doesn't want to kill his father, he want's to save him. I'm sure Luke, when first seeing Ben's darkness, felt the same thing. Only after Vader directly threatens Leia, does Luke violently swing to the dark. I even can see similarities in Luke's lightsaber and facial expressions when comparing the two scenes (standing over Ben vs. repeatedly striking Vader while he's off his feet). In TLJ, we only hear subtle clues as to Ben's darkness.
This is where I think the movie needed a little more to ram home the darkness that Luke felt. For instance, maybe a couple of verbal "Ben! NO!!!" from Han or Leia as they are being hurt. Something that is a direct threat to something held dear by Luke. If something like that was in TLJ and I missed it, feel free to correct.
In ROTJ, after Vader's hand is lost, there is the visual of Luke's charred mechanical hand that gives him pause before he becomes just as evil as dear ol' dad. I think Rian tried to give us a similar visual with Luke holding his unlit lightsaber over Ben, but it didn't ring the same. (Was it a glove of mechanical hand? Guess I have to go back and see it again unless you guys can remind me.) A simple Vader's breath here could have made this a complete connection and made a key moment so much more powerful, and believable.
I read that being more about Luke not involving himself in what was going on over the course of time, that if he'd been connected to the Force he would have known what was happening and done something about it.BernArnold said:FTACO97 said:All of his twitter thoughts in one article:TCTTS said:
Pretty great thread about Luke's arc in TLJ. Still not quite the arc I wanted to see, but it at least explains why Johnson had to do what he did...
http://bigshinyrobot.com/60239/luke-skywalkers-arc-star-wars-last-jedi/
Dude makes some awesome points. His first major point had never occurred to me before about why didn't he save Han.
While I understand what he is saying about not saving Han it also is not realistic.
I mean when he went to save friends before they were in danger, sure, but not standing on a catwalk about to be sliced in 2 danger. He would have had to teleport there or force project at least. I mean unless he is implying he would have sensed the danger before that and come sooner. But the danger was never really imminent except the danger they were all in as part of the resistance - until he saw Ben and was on the catwalk with him.
To me it is more like why Luke just wasn't there at all in TFA despite the dangers, etc. more so than why he did not save Han.
But it's still a valid point overall.
I like Luke's arc... having said that, why stay on the island strong in the force (force tree, dark side hole, jedi temple) if he chose to close himself off to the force?
That's like the Pope turning athiest but staying at the Vatican.
That's like the Pope turning athiest but staying at the Vatican.
I would argue Luke knew Han's fate and saw it when he drew his lightsaber on a younger Ben Solo. And, I agree with the above, it would have been the perfect time to use voices or imagery like JJ did in TFA.
I guess maybe he went there at first looking for answers, and then didn't like the answers he got? So, he shut it down. I still wonder how he did that fishing trick without using force skills though.
that's what I thought as well... would have been perfect to show a vision of Han getting skewered, Leia floating in space, Rey being tortured, Jedi academy burning and Kylo sitting on a throne in a first order ship. Combine all that and I could see a split second of wanting to save all of them and igniting his laser sword.CJS4715 said:
I would argue Luke knew Han's fate and saw it when he drew his lightsaber on a younger Ben Solo. And, I agree with the above, it would have been the perfect time to use voices or imagery like JJ did in TFA.
I understand all of this, and while I didn't hate the movie, I feel I shouldn't have to read a blog on the internet from a third party to "get" why Johnson treated Luke the way he did. It should have been conveyed during the movie itself.FTACO97 said:All of his twitter thoughts in one article:TCTTS said:
Pretty great thread about Luke's arc in TLJ. Still not quite the arc I wanted to see, but it at least explains why Johnson had to do what he did...
http://bigshinyrobot.com/60239/luke-skywalkers-arc-star-wars-last-jedi/
Dude makes some awesome points. His first major point had never occurred to me before about why didn't he save Han.
Flashdiaz said:that's what I thought as well... would have been perfect to show a vision of Han getting skewered, Leia floating in space, Rey being tortured, Jedi academy burning and Kylo sitting on a throne in a first order ship. Combine all that and I could see a split second of wanting to save all of them and igniting his laser sword.CJS4715 said:
I would argue Luke knew Han's fate and saw it when he drew his lightsaber on a younger Ben Solo. And, I agree with the above, it would have been the perfect time to use voices or imagery like JJ did in TFA.
If he actually saw all that though, specifically, you think he would have just abandoned his friends?
Seeing the evil he might do as ruler, or slaying unknown others would be one thing. Seeing your friends killed or seemingly killed in the case of Leia would be another thing.
I don't think people would react well either, if he knew that would happen and did nothing. As opposed to just knowing he would become evil and rule the FO.
true, but remember Yoda's line in ESB:BernArnold said:Flashdiaz said:that's what I thought as well... would have been perfect to show a vision of Han getting skewered, Leia floating in space, Rey being tortured, Jedi academy burning and Kylo sitting on a throne in a first order ship. Combine all that and I could see a split second of wanting to save all of them and igniting his laser sword.CJS4715 said:
I would argue Luke knew Han's fate and saw it when he drew his lightsaber on a younger Ben Solo. And, I agree with the above, it would have been the perfect time to use voices or imagery like JJ did in TFA.
If he actually saw all that though, specifically, you think he would have just abandoned his friends?
Seeing the evil he might do as ruler, or slaying unknown others would be one thing. Seeing your friends killed or seemingly killed in the case of Leia would be another thing.
I don't think people would react well either, if he knew that would happen and did nothing. As opposed to just knowing he would become evil and rule the FO.
Is it really worth jeopardizing Han and Leia, Luke asks. "If you honor what they fight for, yes!"
Does it take a blog to get there? Maybe Rian screwed up on balancing between handing the information on silver platter vs. requiring the audience to decide. I think there are some minor clues or hints that should have been given, but I don't hate the ambiguity either.
I've heard a few people say this and I don't quite get it. You know everything about the history of the character outside of details that were filled in in TLJ, I feel like any sort of exposition trying to explicitly explain this would've been complained about as dumbing things down.Belton Ag said:I understand all of this, and while I didn't hate the movie, I feel I shouldn't have to read a blog on the internet from a third party to "get" why Johnson treated Luke the way he did. It should have been conveyed during the movie itself.FTACO97 said:All of his twitter thoughts in one article:TCTTS said:
Pretty great thread about Luke's arc in TLJ. Still not quite the arc I wanted to see, but it at least explains why Johnson had to do what he did...
http://bigshinyrobot.com/60239/luke-skywalkers-arc-star-wars-last-jedi/
Dude makes some awesome points. His first major point had never occurred to me before about why didn't he save Han.
I suppose they could've added a few lines of vaguely related dialogue where Luke more explicitly talked about walking away and how being disconnected from the Force meant he wasn't aware of things happening, but again that seems kind of lowest common denominator filmmaking.
Lots of other films make the viewer do a lot more on their own to figure things out.
After TFA, no one questioned that Luke could end up alone on an island or that Kylo went to the dark side, but now after Rian Johnson tried to explain it everyone seems to be more confused and critical on those points than before.
I still don't think the problem has anything to do with the fundamental plot. Johnson was so hot to challenge the viewer and have multiple big twists that he did a poor job of telling the story.
I still don't think the problem has anything to do with the fundamental plot. Johnson was so hot to challenge the viewer and have multiple big twists that he did a poor job of telling the story.
I think mass audiences are just expecting to be spoonfed everything in their blockbusters, as pretentious as that might sound.
Rebutting myself though... i didn't really have trouble with either of the specific things I mentioned. The hermit warrior monk and the evil tyro are both established tropes that I don't really need to have explained, and i thought there was enough exposition to catch us up to the current story. My problems are elsewhere.
CJS4715 said:
Don't we have more context to Kylo's turn to the dark side than Vader's in the OT? Vader was simply "seduced by the dark side".
Quote:
Was gonna say this, but didn't want people to jump on me for always comparing to the OT.
As I've noted before, the OT had the luxury of being first. It was perfectly ok and even expected for there to be no explicit character backstories. Part of the fun was being dropped right into the action/story of something new we'd never seen before. But going into the sequel trilogy, with six movies of rich history, the approach should have been tweaked a bit. We needed more information bridging the gaps not only in plot, but in character as well.
With Vader, when Kenobi first spoke of him to Luke, just enough information was given to us. He was a Jedi who was tempted by the dark side. It sounded like a Greek tragedy, almost romantic in a way. It was a familiar-ish arc, and because of that, we didn't need to know any other details about Vader at the time. The vagueness almost helped.
But we knew Kylo's parents well, obviously. We knew the family he came from. We knew the demons Luke had finally conquered. We knew the favorable shape the universe was in last time we saw it. So with TFA, to then just plop us into the story once again, with no real bridges gapped - it was disorienting. It still is. And through TLJ, what little has been given to us about Kylo's backstory during that time still hasn't been explained all that well. And given all the context we have, it should have been.
Agree with this
TCTTS said:
whoa thats weird if you watch that second video with Bobby Moynihan.....long segment on SW .... and a few nitpicks but you could tell they loved it overall.... and Bobby was talking about it more from an industry view I suppose and how fun that was to see everything turned on its head like screw the SW fanboys who thought they knew what it would be even when he is one himself.
But I thought everyone hated this movie.....hmmmmm...... guess not.
BernArnold said:
But I thought everyone hated this movie.....hmmmmm...... guess not.
CJS4715 said:BernArnold said:
But I thought everyone hated this movie.....hmmmmm...... guess not.
Yep....hate THAT moment and most of Finn/Rose really.....
but in that same video at the end of it when they talk about their favorite moments is great stuff....they each had a different one or two:
- The Leia/Luke moment
- The throne room scene and snoke
- the Luke dual sunset bookending his arc
- the Luke final showdown
- The Haldo warp speed attack
I can't believe naysayers overlook all those (and more) amazing moments because of a few nitpicks or one rather tangential part.
Not really. I accepted why Luke was the way he was in the movie and begrudgingly understood it. I just think the relative ambiguity is part of the reason why the movie is so polarizing, and I hate that the community is so divided right now.CJS4715 said:
Does it take a blog to get there? Maybe Rian screwed up on balancing between handing the information on silver platter vs. requiring the audience to decide. I think there are some minor clues or hints that should have been given, but I don't hate the ambiguity either.
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