Star Wars Discussion Thread

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Zombie Jon Snow
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Belton Ag said:

CJS4715 said:

Does it take a blog to get there? Maybe Rian screwed up on balancing between handing the information on silver platter vs. requiring the audience to decide. I think there are some minor clues or hints that should have been given, but I don't hate the ambiguity either.
Not really. I accepted why Luke was the way he was in the movie and begrudgingly understood it. I just think the relative ambiguity is part of the reason why the movie is so polarizing, and I hate that the community is so divided right now.

The community definitely has some dislike of the ambiguity but I think more than that they feel as if they were specifically owed something and that's just wrong/pathetic.

Nobody said you were going to get Rey's backstory, Snoke's backstory, Kylo's backstory, some massive Jedi showdown, etc.....

Hell we never really got anyone backstories from the OT until the prequels.

Belton Ag
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BernArnold said:

Belton Ag said:

CJS4715 said:

Does it take a blog to get there? Maybe Rian screwed up on balancing between handing the information on silver platter vs. requiring the audience to decide. I think there are some minor clues or hints that should have been given, but I don't hate the ambiguity either.
Not really. I accepted why Luke was the way he was in the movie and begrudgingly understood it. I just think the relative ambiguity is part of the reason why the movie is so polarizing, and I hate that the community is so divided right now.

The community definitely has some dislike of the ambiguity but I think more than that they feel as if they were specifically owed something and that's just wrong/pathetic.

Nobody said you were going to get Rey's backstory, Snoke's backstory, Kylo's backstory, some massive Jedi showdown, etc.....

Hell we never really got anyone backstories from the OT until the prequels.


I'm not talking about backstories. I'm specifically talking about Johnson's treatment of Luke Skywalker.

Let's face it, Luke's story is the single most polarizing part about TLJ.
AgMarauder04
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Belton Ag said:

BernArnold said:

Belton Ag said:

CJS4715 said:

Does it take a blog to get there? Maybe Rian screwed up on balancing between handing the information on silver platter vs. requiring the audience to decide. I think there are some minor clues or hints that should have been given, but I don't hate the ambiguity either.
Not really. I accepted why Luke was the way he was in the movie and begrudgingly understood it. I just think the relative ambiguity is part of the reason why the movie is so polarizing, and I hate that the community is so divided right now.

The community definitely has some dislike of the ambiguity but I think more than that they feel as if they were specifically owed something and that's just wrong/pathetic.

Nobody said you were going to get Rey's backstory, Snoke's backstory, Kylo's backstory, some massive Jedi showdown, etc.....

Hell we never really got anyone backstories from the OT until the prequels.


I'm not talking about backstories. I'm specifically talking about Johnson's treatment of Luke Skywalker.

Let's face it, Luke's story is the single most polarizing part about TLJ.

For a badass Jedi, the best thing he did was project an image of himself across the galaxy for a couple minutes. My biggest disappointment was no show of force badassery. We never got it.
Zombie Jon Snow
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AgMarauder04 said:

Belton Ag said:

BernArnold said:

Belton Ag said:

CJS4715 said:

Does it take a blog to get there? Maybe Rian screwed up on balancing between handing the information on silver platter vs. requiring the audience to decide. I think there are some minor clues or hints that should have been given, but I don't hate the ambiguity either.
Not really. I accepted why Luke was the way he was in the movie and begrudgingly understood it. I just think the relative ambiguity is part of the reason why the movie is so polarizing, and I hate that the community is so divided right now.

The community definitely has some dislike of the ambiguity but I think more than that they feel as if they were specifically owed something and that's just wrong/pathetic.

Nobody said you were going to get Rey's backstory, Snoke's backstory, Kylo's backstory, some massive Jedi showdown, etc.....

Hell we never really got anyone backstories from the OT until the prequels.


I'm not talking about backstories. I'm specifically talking about Johnson's treatment of Luke Skywalker.

Let's face it, Luke's story is the single most polarizing part about TLJ.

For a badass Jedi, the best thing he did was project an image of himself across the galaxy for a couple minutes. My biggest disappointment was no show of force badassery. We never got it.

Unless you consider that force badassery....which I do.

I mean nobody has basically done that before (certainly that we've seen) and it was the ultimate sacrifice really.

He wasn't just going into mano-a-mano combat with Kylo which "could" result in his death. He knew the effort of this "would" kill him. Hence why he said his goodbyes to Leia beforehand.

He could have gone there in person, he had an X-wing after all.

but he
a. bought the resistance time
b. one upped the overly angry Kylo without having to defeat him and made him look like a fool
c. got his moment of legendary Jedi demonstration


It's all there....it's just not what some people wanted or expected.



AgMarauder04
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I wasn't devastated, but I can't tell you how much I would have loved to see him wave his hand after his image was barraged and crumpled/flung away the walkers.
Ag Since 83
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He's a Jedi. He's not going to kill the bad guys if he can avoid it. He accomplished his mission
Ulrich
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BernArnold said:


I mean nobody has basically done that before (certainly that we've seen) and it was the ultimate sacrifice really.

He wasn't just going into mano-a-mano combat with Kylo which "could" result in his death. He knew the effort of this "would" kill him. Hence why he said his goodbyes to Leia beforehand.


Luke Skywalker and Rian Johnson may know that, but the viewers don't. This is actually the best example of Johnson valuing "twists" over telling a coherent story.

If we had spent more time with Luke during the buildup and knew what he was risking going in, there would have been a lot of psychological tension in the showdown as we wondered whether he would survive the effort. We could have seen the strain back on Ach To. When he died, we would have understood and it might have been very powerful.

Instead, the typical viewer's process went something like "this is so awesome, Luke risking death to face down the First Order! Oh no, Luke Skywalker died! Well, he went out in a totally badass way, i 'get' that ending, it's appropriate. Wait... he wasn't even there, it was a fakeout and he never risked anything at all? Wait, now he's dying from... old age?"

It's taking several viewings and quite a bit of reading between the lines for people to figure out the climax of the movie. That's bad storytelling.
redline248
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Quote:

I can't believe naysayers overlook all those (and more) amazing moments because of a few nitpicks or one rather tangential part.
As with most things on the internet, and seemingly in society, it has to be either/or...

For myself, I enjoyed a lot of the movie, but I don't think all the criticisms are nitpicks. There are legitimate issues with the film.
Flashdiaz
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Ulrich said:

BernArnold said:


I mean nobody has basically done that before (certainly that we've seen) and it was the ultimate sacrifice really.

He wasn't just going into mano-a-mano combat with Kylo which "could" result in his death. He knew the effort of this "would" kill him. Hence why he said his goodbyes to Leia beforehand.


Luke Skywalker and Rian Johnson may know that, but the viewers don't. This is actually the best example of Johnson valuing "twists" over telling a coherent story.

If we had spent more time with Luke during the buildup and knew what he was risking going in, there would have been a lot of psychological tension in the showdown as we wondered whether he would survive the effort. We could have seen the strain back on Ach To. When he died, we would have understood and it might have been very powerful.

Instead, the typical viewer's process went something like "this is so awesome, Luke risking death to face down the First Order! Oh no, Luke Skywalker died! Well, he went out in a totally badass way, i 'get' that ending, it's appropriate. Wait... he wasn't even there, it was a fakeout and he never risked anything at all? Wait, now he's dying from... old age?"

It's taking several viewings and quite a bit of reading between the lines for people to figure out the climax of the movie. That's bad storytelling.
I actually agree with this... it wasn't that Luke became one with the force, it was that it was so jarring.

We go from Luke 'floating' and thinking wow he just made Kylo look foolish with this new force power while letting the resistance escape.
to Luke 'saying see you around kid'... awesome! there's going to be a showdown or something in episode 9.
to Luke dying.... what?
Chipotlemonger
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Would be great!
Zombie Jon Snow
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I get that part for sure.....it was jarring for me as well.

I almost wonder if there was not some thought to changing it and not showing him dying - partly also because of Leia/Carrie dying (which we know will happen).

I mean I could see leaving it at what he did and he is severely weakened maybe on the island and cannot now leave, does not have the strength and cannot force project anymore either....

then maybe one more visit from Rey in IX.....I would have held his death for the end of the Skywalker 9 movie arc.

but it is what it is.
Brian Earl Spilner
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TLJ in a nutshell. (Stolen from reddit.)

fig96
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Ulrich said:

BernArnold said:


I mean nobody has basically done that before (certainly that we've seen) and it was the ultimate sacrifice really.

He wasn't just going into mano-a-mano combat with Kylo which "could" result in his death. He knew the effort of this "would" kill him. Hence why he said his goodbyes to Leia beforehand.


Luke Skywalker and Rian Johnson may know that, but the viewers don't. This is actually the best example of Johnson valuing "twists" over telling a coherent story.

If we had spent more time with Luke during the buildup and knew what he was risking going in, there would have been a lot of psychological tension in the showdown as we wondered whether he would survive the effort. We could have seen the strain back on Ach To. When he died, we would have understood and it might have been very powerful.

Instead, the typical viewer's process went something like "this is so awesome, Luke risking death to face down the First Order! Oh no, Luke Skywalker died! Well, he went out in a totally badass way, i 'get' that ending, it's appropriate. Wait... he wasn't even there, it was a fakeout and he never risked anything at all? Wait, now he's dying from... old age?"

It's taking several viewings and quite a bit of reading between the lines for people to figure out the climax of the movie. That's bad storytelling.
But again, I feel like people are projecting what they wanted to happen and saying it's bad storytelling because it didn't happen that way.

Why do we need to know ahead of time that doing this would kill Luke? The flip side of your argument is that it would've removed any tension because we'd have known it wasn't actually him, we'd have known Kylo was fighting air and totally faked out, it would have removed the "aha" moment, etc.

I feel like a lot of folks want things really spelled out, i.e. "if Luke does this he's most likely going to kill himself" but then we'd have people complaining that it was overly explained. Lots of films leave much more to the viewer's interpretation.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Agreed there too....cuz it is stated actually... only in retrospect do you realize it is important. but what is wrong with that?

Kylo said to Rey about their connection something like "are you doing this??......no,the effort would kill you".


I think people in the coming years will watch this movie and realize some of the built in moments like that... and appreciate the good stuff a lot more and not let the bad diminish. I'm already there pesonally.
aggiephoenix02
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BernArnold said:


Agreed there too....cuz it is stated actually... only in retrospect do you realize it is important. but what is wrong with that?

Kylo said to Rey about their connection something like "are you doing this??......no,the effort would kill you".


I think people in the coming years will watch this movie and realize some of the built in moments like that... and appreciate the good stuff a lot more and not let the bad diminish. I'm already there pesonally.
Word! Me too. This movie is awesome, and will get better over time...
Ulrich
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I had no opinions on what needed to happen. I went in totally dark on spoilers and discussion. In hindsight I think the actual events come together into a really cool way to end Luke's story... but I think the story was told in a way that rips the heart out of the scene.

Its bad storytelling for two reasons: first, it looked super heroic at first but the twist made it look less heroic by comparison (even though, as I've said, I've decided the fundamental idea was actually really good). Second, we're still kind of speculating that the effort killed him and it definitely wasn't clear to people in the moment, which is why there were tons of people ticked off early on about Luke dying for no reason. Because of that, it's really hard for people to know whether Luke was risking anything or if he knew he was risking anything going in.

This isn't subtlety of theme or motivation, failing to providing the insane amounts of backstory star wars fans tend to want, or quibbles over whether I think the storyline makes sense. It's that by telling the story backwards, Johnson created a plot twist at the cost of cheapening Luke's sacrifice. He already had half a dozen plot twists (Rey being a nobody, Ren killing Snoke, Luke throwing away the lightsaber, and not one but two complex rebel escape plans getting foiled). This one made the movie worse.
Ulrich
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And to follow up... this is a star wars movie, a character-driven fantasy opera, not some art house thought provoker. You shouldn't have to piece together tiny facts from half a movie ago to understand the plot or the characters. That is a total failure.
Farmer1906
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

TLJ in a nutshell. (Stolen from reddit.)




Don't don't bother Luke? So bother Luke then.
VanZandt92
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My criticism of the movie has little to do with Luke. I'm just hoping the Solo movie is better.
fig96
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Ulrich said:

And to follow up... this is a star wars movie, a character-driven fantasy opera, not some art house thought provoker. You shouldn't have to piece together tiny facts from half a movie ago to understand the plot or the characters. That is a total failure.
Seriously? We're not talking about Donnie Darko here.

Luke knew he'd expend so much energy (and IMO knew he'd be serving his purpose in the Force) that he said his goodbye to Leia beforehand. It works pretty much the same way if we he just thought he might die in combat, which is how we all saw it at first. And he wasn't there to save Han because he was so disconnected from the Force.

That's not a huge academic leap.
Ulrich
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We have to remember an incidental bit of dialogue from a different context that may or may not be referencing the same force ability and is definitely referring to a character that is not a Jedi master.

Maybe try realizing that if half the interested world is still complaining that it doesn't make sense, Johnson did a crappy job communicating the plot whether or not we can prove that there were hints after a month of discussion and repeated rewatching. Star Wars does not generally fall into the brain teaser category of movies.
fig96
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But why do you need to know anything about an obscure line?

At face value he expended a bunch of energy, and personally I saw it more of him having served his purpose. Either way it's a bit open to interpretation but the context of the situation gives you enough to figure it out. It seems some people just dont like that that's how Luke passed into Jedi heaven.

That doesn't make it nonsensical or hard to understand.
SeattleAgJr
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Apparently Solo is going back in for MORE reshoots.

I smell a stinker for sure now.

https://nerdist.com/solo-star-wars-reshoots-x-force-movie-kylo-ren-meme-nntb/

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1835309/wait-is-solo-a-star-wars-story-doing-even-more-reshoots
Brian Earl Spilner
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I almost hope Solo ends up being the best of the new films just for the supreme irony of it.
SeattleAgJr
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I am pretty damn confident that that will not be the case.

I just hope it is a better Star Wars movie than TLJ.
Farmer1906
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I smell best movie since Empire.
TCTTS
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I almost posted this news earlier to preemptively try and get out in front of this exact response, but thought surely people understand the concept of reshoots by now. Guess not. Again, reshoots happen on EVERY big movie. They're built into the schedule of EVERY blockbuster. So that after the initial cut is assembled, and the filmmakers have finally seen the movie, they can go back and fill in any gaps, make certain things clearer, get a slightly different performance, etc. The past three SW movies have all done the exact same thing. Ron Howard simply has an edit now and is going back and sharpening the movie. That's it and that's all.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Yeah I'm bracing for disaster at this point.

TC, does the complete radio silence not worry you at all though? Four months and not even a single official image. Only a teaser poster.
fig96
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Think it's also worth nothing that he wasn't directing this from the get go, and more than likely didn't get to shoot everything he wanted to on the limited schedule he got.
Chipotlemonger
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Yeah I'm bracing for disaster at this point.

TC, does the complete radio silence not worry you at all though? Four months and not even a single official image. Only a teaser poster.
I think the guidelines are different for an anthology movie like this in between releases of Star Wars movies.
TCTTS
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I think the radio silence can be attributed to TLJ needing to come out first. Seems to be Disney/Lucasfilm policy at this point. They wait til the current SW movie is out to even begin advertising the next one. And the fact the the first trailer is seemingly going to hit so soon after TLJ hit theaters tells me that's exactly what's going on here.

What I can't figure out is why it never got pushed to December. Out of five SW movies in this new era, it's the only one not hitting in December. And if ever there was case for December (i.e. needing more time), this is it. Especially when it could easily compete against such a crappy holiday slate this year. But the fact that they're sticking to May also speaks to a certain confidence.

It's curious and confusing for sure, but at least we'll have an idea of what we're dealing with soon.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Their biggest mistake was sticking this in May in the first place. Granted, they didn't know about the director shakeup at the time, but you'd think they'd push it back to December after it happened.

The schedule was way too cramped to begin with only five months buffer after TLJ, not to mention Avengers in May as well.

Edit: Hadn't read your post. We made the same point.
SeattleAgJr
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Their biggest mistake was sticking this in May in the first place. Granted, they didn't know about the director shakeup at the time, but you'd think they'd push it back to December after it happened.

The schedule was way too cramped to begin with only five months buffer after TLJ, not to mention Avengers in May as well.

Edit: Hadn't read your post. We made the same point.
Assuming Avengers is good and not either a bloated mess or a lame story ala Ultron, there weeks might not be enough of a buffer for Solo, especially if firsthand reports start indicating that it is a mediocre film.

I predict they l be trotting out Harrison Ford for a few interviews to bolster this thing.
TCTTS
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TLJ and Episode IX were both scheduled for May as well. It seemed they were trying to get the franchise back to the summer for good, but when all the Trevorrow stuff went down, Episode IX got bumped (and I can't remember why the same happened to TLJ). Disney has a massive Mary Poppins movie scheduled for December of this year, but that seems easily movable. Otherwise, especially with Avengers in May as well as you mentioned, I cannot figure out why Solo never moved. It's not a shareholder thing because December would still mean the same year. I just don't get it...
SeattleAgJr
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TCTTS said:

I almost posted this news earlier to preemptively try and get out in front of this exact response, but thought surely people understand the concept of reshoots by now. Guess not. Again, reshoots happen on EVERY big movie. They're built into the schedule of EVERY blockbuster. So that after the initial cut is assembled, and the filmmakers have finally seen the movie, they can go back and fill in any gaps, make certain things clearer, get a slightly different performance, etc. The past three SW movies have all done the exact same thing. Ron Howard simply has an edit now and is going back and sharpening the movie. That's it and that's all.
Yes, I fully understand that.
These are after Howard's first full edit, on top of whatever Frankenstein edit he had between his version and Lord/Miller.

it does not change the fact that at 4 months before release things are still cluster****ed.

It does not help there is NO hype for this
That the lead is pretty much uncharismatic AND looks nothing like Ford
and behind the scenes talk has painted a pretty bad image of the production.

Honestly, I would LOVE them to have made a Young Lando movie, because Donald Glover LOOKS like a young Billy Dee, and that story is completely unexplored.
We could have covered how he lost the Falcon to Solo, and then moved on to Lando only things.
In my mind, that would have been a better movie with much more manageable expectations. Also likely to not make a billion $ worldwide.
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