Star Wars Discussion Thread

3,108,195 Views | 29861 Replies | Last: 45 min ago by Brian Earl Spilner
AliasMan02
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I agree with the spirit of what you're saying to some extent, except the prequels were not AT ALL respectful of the OT. To frame it against TLJ, for example, one can argue that Luke WOULDN'T have done some of the things he did in TLJ. In the prequels, however, characters routinely did things we know that they DIDN'T do according to the OT.

If you're talking about respecting the OT, you can't praise the films that brought us midi-chlorians, Anakin being a little kid when he meets Obi-Wan, Leia's mother dying in childbirth, etc.
TCTTS
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Brian Earl Spilner
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Will continue the trend of having a small setup for the next movie that started with Rogue One.

RO - Mention of hyperspace tracking (Major plot point in TLJ)
TLJ - Large focus on Han's dice (Major device in Solo)
Solo - Darth Maul (Setup for Obi-Wan?)
TCTTS
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If so, sign me up.
Cstrickland05
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I don't know what more they could add to the Kenobi/Maul story that hasn't already been done in Clone Wars and especially Rebels, which tied it up nicely.
cbr
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Back in after nearly a year to announce that my nephew wanted to watch Tlj and it was even worse than I recall. Literally a complete and total piece of **** garbage movie. And given that they had the greatest franchise in movie history to work with, and a dead Hollywood icon, it was literally the movie in all of history that missed its potential by the most. Ever.

Rt audience vote now has tlj as a 30% ****tier movie than phantom menace.

Wow.

Considering that tfa was pretty nice- if overly cliche'd, and rogue one was simply outstanding, it is beyond comprehension that tlj could have been so godawful.

I will probably see solo this week. Hopefully it's a better spiel than tlj.
TCTTS
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Noblemen06
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As someone who doesn't loathe TLJ, I still thought Solo was significantly better. Hope you enjoy it!
Brian Earl Spilner
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I think it'd be cool if they gave the Obi-Wan movie an actual title rather than just his name. Any ideas?

I was thinking something like Obi-Wan: Exile. Or maybe something less cheesy.
AliasMan02
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I think all the hubbub about Star Wars lately reveals that the franchise is at a crossroads and it's all about two distinct types of superfans. Comic book movies went through something similar, though it lacked the intensity at the edges or the publicity and range provided by social media. I've thought a lot about this and I think the below is all going to show to be true.

Let me first say that the vast majority of Star Wars consumers don't fall into these two groups. However, it is these two groups that guide the global conversation.

While we had comic book movies in prior decades, X-Men was the launching point for the "modern" comic book movie. I think that people don't realize, or have forgotten, that there were a lot of comic book fans who were vehemently opposed to that portrayal. They HATED the costume changes. They HATED the character lineup. They HATED the alterations made to the characters. Hell, in certain circles people were PISSED at Jackman's Wolverine because he was TOO TALL. I'll never forget at debate I had online with a huge X-Men fan who hated everything about the movie because it was not a direct adaptation of Astonishing X-Men #1, or some other existing arc.

Most people in this category were hardcore fans of the original depiction in the comic books.

What we have in today's MCU is really nothing like the source material. It's influenced and inspired by it, but the stories are different. The characters are different. Powers and costumes and everything are different. The same is true of other properties like the X-verse and DCEU.

Most people are on board with these new depictions. Sure, many have their problems but the criticism at large is rarely "it's too different from the source material." In fact, we have a whole new class of superhero hardcore fans who adore these movies (especially the MCU) who don't much care about the original material.

Star Wars superfandom breaks into two camps, imo:

The first group demands adherence to a certain, often unwritten, interpretation of the classic trilogy. Change is unwanted and unwelcome, like those comic book fans who railed against the black uniforms of the X-Men. The beloved characters must remain the same over the years. Traditional alien races should be prominently featured. Stories should be pulled from existing works. It's poetry, and it should rhyme.

Even when new depictions follow the existing material in justifiable and logical ways, if it violates a sort of communal headcanon, it's unacceptable. As one example, people freak out about Space Leia and decry it as an affront to Star Wars fans everywhere. When Johnson points out that Leia's Force abilities are merely the fulfillment of what Luke told her in RotJ ("in time you'll learn to use it as I have"), it doesn't matter because it conflicts with the existing view of Leia when we last saw her.

This group has little interest in Star Wars tales that don't include a Skywalker or tie directly to the OT in some way.

The second group loves the original material but views the new as interesting and exciting. Likes seeing new twists on old ideas and growing concepts to fit a modern telling. Many in this group were not raised during the original run of the OT and identify more broadly with a larger Star Wars universe that includes things other than the three classic films.

This is the group who is looking forward to Episode IX, but also (and maybe more so) in taking the franchise into new eras and far-flung parts of the galaxy. It thinks that closing the book on the Skywalkers is good for the franchise and that the best may yet lie ahead. Star Wars is about more than the OT and can grow beyond it.

The thing of it is, this is a long game. The first group is shrinking and the second group is growing, fast. Literally growing because many are/were kids for whom Ahsoka Tano and Ezra Bridger and Rey are every bit as important to Star Wars as Luke Skywalker. And the more of the old guard who say "I'm out!" and walk away in a huff, the more the balance shifts to the new.

The situations are not identical between comics and Star Wars, of course. The original comic books are just inspiration, while the OT is preserved as canon. But, just like the protestations of some comic book fans were only a bump in the road for modern film franchises, I think you'll see something similar for a galaxy far, far away. The OT will always be the measuring stick, but ultimately the franchise will grow beyond it.
bangobango
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AliasMan02 said:

I think all the hubbub about Star Wars lately reveals that the franchise is at a crossroads and it's all about two distinct types of superfans. Comic book movies went through something similar, though it lacked the intensity at the edges or the publicity and range provided by social media. I've thought a lot about this and I think the below is all going to show to be true.

Let me first say that the vast majority of Star Wars consumers don't fall into these two groups. However, it is these two groups that guide the global conversation.

While we had comic book movies in prior decades, X-Men was the launching point for the "modern" comic book movie. I think that people don't realize, or have forgotten, that there were a lot of comic book fans who were vehemently opposed to that portrayal. They HATED the costume changes. They HATED the character lineup. They HATED the alterations made to the characters. Hell, in certain circles people were PISSED at Jackman's Wolverine because he was TOO TALL. I'll never forget at debate I had online with a huge X-Men fan who hated everything about the movie because it was not a direct adaptation of Astonishing X-Men #1, or some other existing arc.

Most people in this category were hardcore fans of the original depiction in the comic books.

What we have in today's MCU is really nothing like the source material. It's influenced and inspired by it, but the stories are different. The characters are different. Powers and costumes and everything are different. The same is true of other properties like the X-verse and DCEU.

Most people are on board with these new depictions. Sure, many have their problems but the criticism at large is rarely "it's too different from the source material." In fact, we have a whole new class of superhero hardcore fans who adore these movies (especially the MCU) who don't much care about the original material.

Star Wars superfandom breaks into two camps, imo:

The first group demands adherence to a certain, often unwritten, interpretation of the classic trilogy. Change is unwanted and unwelcome, like those comic book fans who railed against the black uniforms of the X-Men. The beloved characters must remain the same over the years. Traditional alien races should be prominently featured. Stories should be pulled from existing works. It's poetry, and it should rhyme.

Even when new depictions follow the existing material in justifiable and logical ways, if it violates a sort of communal headcanon, it's unacceptable. As one example, people freak out about Space Leia and decry it as an affront to Star Wars fans everywhere. When Johnson points out that Leia's Force abilities are merely the fulfillment of what Luke told her in RotJ ("in time you'll learn to use it as I have"), it doesn't matter because it conflicts with the existing view of Leia when we last saw her.

This group has little interest in Star Wars tales that don't include a Skywalker or tie directly to the OT in some way.

The second group loves the original material but views the new as interesting and exciting. Likes seeing new twists on old ideas and growing concepts to fit a modern telling. Many in this group were not raised during the original run of the OT and identify more broadly with a larger Star Wars universe that includes things other than the three classic films.

This is the group who is looking forward to Episode IX, but also (and maybe more so) in taking the franchise into new eras and far-flung parts of the galaxy. It thinks that closing the book on the Skywalkers is good for the franchise and that the best may yet lie ahead. Star Wars is about more than the OT and can grow beyond it.

The thing of it is, this is a long game. The first group is shrinking and the second group is growing, fast. Literally growing because many are/were kids for whom Ahsoka Tano and Ezra Bridger and Rey are every bit as important to Star Wars as Luke Skywalker. And the more of the old guard who say "I'm out!" and walk away in a huff, the more the balance shifts to the new.

The situations are not identical between comics and Star Wars, of course. The original comic books are just inspiration, while the OT is preserved as canon. But, just like the protestations of some comic book fans were only a bump in the road for modern film franchises, I think you'll see something similar for a galaxy far, far away. The OT will always be the measuring stick, but ultimately the franchise will grow beyond it.


What a ridiculous take and completely unsupported by the facts.
TCTTS
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What's so ridiculous about it? Accurate or not, it's an interesting, nuanced take. Why ridicule someone for that?

Wes97
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The fact that the movies are making less $ and not more as they go along does not support his theory of the franchise growing. And his personal spin on the "two groups" is ridiculous.

I think there are some people taking these movies way too seriously but it is not those who are saying that they just aren't that good.

And I will concede that this solo movie might be an exception. It does have some good writers and directors attached to it. But after the last jedi I am really no longer interested in these films.
Dekker_Lentz
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In the end, fans are just Luke.
AliasMan02
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Wes97 said:

The fact that the movies are making less $ and not more as they go along does not support his theory of the franchise growing. And his personal spin on the "two groups" is ridiculous.

I think there are some people taking these movies way too seriously but it is not those who are saying that they just aren't that good.

And I will concede that this solo movie might be an exception. It does have some good writers and directors attached to it. But after the last jedi I am really no longer interested in these films.


I didn't say there are two groups. I said there are two basic groups of "superfans" that drive most of the conversation. Most Star Wars consumers don't fit into these groups.

To summarize the thesis of my too-long post: Superfans tend to either base their fandom on the OT, or on the overall Star Wars universe as a setting/genre.

Fans who base their fandom solely on the OT will be increasingly left out as those stories are left behind over time. Their preferred stories will make up a smaller and smaller percentage of the canon. That percentage will always carry extra weight because it was the original, but it will eventually be overshadowed/overwhelmed.

Fans who are interested in the wider Star Wars universe will be catered to more and more and will become a larger and larger share of the fanbase. I think this is Lucasfilm's plan, and why there is SO MUCH in development that is totally distinct from the OT. The franchise will grow outward, not within its current story arcs.

The fact that your hate for TLJ is leading you to abandon the franchise is just lending weight to my theory. When a new trilogy launches with zero links to the classic characters, it sounds like you're out because to you, those characters ARE Star Wars. To a growing number of others, that view is totally different.
bangobango
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TCTTS said:

What's so ridiculous about it? Accurate or not, it's an interesting, nuanced take. Why ridicule someone for that?




Because it's a condescending post that explains that the reason there are Less people going to see these movies by claiming the fan base is GROWING, which is just ridiculous on its face. There is nothing nuanced about completely fabricating a theory unsupported by any facts, or in fact running in direct contradiction to any facts.

It's just more of the crap Disney and a lot of fans have been doing since the release of the Last Jedi - if you don't like the movie it's because you're a ridiculous superfan with unreal expectations, or you're a bigot, or you're a sexist, or insert some other character flaw here. It is never because the movie wasn't good or the writing sucked. I've never seen the pure disdain for a large portion of the fan base like what Disney has shown for star wars fans. And this guy is making himself out to be so superior to everyone who doesn't like it because he isn't "stuck in the original trilogy."

Bull. You don't mind it because you'll take whatever crap they shovel at you and choke it down and tell them "thank you, can I have some more?"
Brian Earl Spilner
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CJS4715
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I take back what I said earlier. I once said that Disney was going to make me end up hating Star Wars. I actually think Star Wars fans might get me there faster.
Flashdiaz
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bangobango said:




I've never seen the pure disdain for a large portion of the fan base like what Disney has shown for star wars fans.

How exactly is the company Disney doing this?

CJS4715
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Flashdiaz said:

bangobango said:




I've never seen the pure disdain for a large portion of the fan base like what Disney has shown for star wars fans.

How exactly is the company Disney doing this?




By creating Star Wars media and fan experiences that never existed.
Belton Ag
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Flashdiaz said:

bangobango said:




I've never seen the pure disdain for a large portion of the fan base like what Disney has shown for star wars fans.

How exactly is the company Disney doing this?


I must have missed the official Disney company released that labeled fans who didn't like TLJ as "bigots."
fig96
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bangobango said:

TCTTS said:

What's so ridiculous about it? Accurate or not, it's an interesting, nuanced take. Why ridicule someone for that?



It's just more of the crap Disney and a lot of fans have been doing since the release of the Last Jedi - if you don't like the movie it's because you're a ridiculous superfan with unreal expectations, or you're a bigot, or you're a sexist, or insert some other character flaw here. It is never because the movie wasn't good or the writing sucked.
No one here has even kinda said this.

Some people didn't like the recent films, TLJ in particular, and that's fine. What's ridiculous is feeling like anyone who does enjoy them is attacking your values, love of Star Wars, way of life, or God given right not to like them.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. Utterly despising a company or other fans for a movie you didn't like is a bit off kilter, however.
Ag Since 83
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Sometimes i wonder what that guy who was next to me in the security line at Star Wars Celebration last year, who was explaining how Kathleen Kennedy is out to destroy Star Wars, is up to today. The past year must have been really interesting for him.
bangobango
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Flashdiaz said:

bangobango said:




I've never seen the pure disdain for a large portion of the fan base like what Disney has shown for star wars fans.

How exactly is the company Disney doing this?




Latest example

Check out @JonKasdan's Tweet:

The screen writers response to people being upset that Lando's "pansexuality" is being wedged into a movie most people enjoy taking their kids to go see. There were numerous similar dismissive statements and tweets by Rian Johnson and other Disney reps after The Last Jedi.

I think the other poster was right in that there is a concerted effort by Disney to push the franchise away from the OT and the Skywalker saga because of the endless possibilities that exist within the universe. That's fine. But there is a way to do that while still being respectful to your core fan base and the character that they grew up idolizing.

And when you screw that up, the response isn't to accuse the millions of upset fans of being racists or sexists or whatever, then marginalized them and say they're a tiny vocal minority. It's to acknowledge their complaints have validity, apologize, and try to correct it moving forward. That pretty basic customer service, but it is apparently lost on the folks at Lucasfilm right now.
bangobango
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Belton Ag said:

Flashdiaz said:

bangobango said:




I've never seen the pure disdain for a large portion of the fan base like what Disney has shown for star wars fans.

How exactly is the company Disney doing this?


I must have missed the official Disney company released that labeled fans who didn't like TLJ as "bigots."


Abrams was unfazed. "'Star Wars' is a big galaxy, and you can sort of find almost anything you want to in 'Star Wars,'" he said. "If you are someone who feels threatened by women and needs to lash out against them, you can probably find an enemy in 'Star Wars.' You can probably look at the first movie that George [Lucas] did ['Star Wars: A New Hope'] and say that Leia was too outspoken, or she was too tough. Anyone who wants to find a problem with anything can find the problem. The internet seems to be made for that."
SpreadsheetAg
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fig96 said:

bangobango said:

TCTTS said:

What's so ridiculous about it? Accurate or not, it's an interesting, nuanced take. Why ridicule someone for that?



It's just more of the crap Disney and a lot of fans have been doing since the release of the Last Jedi - if you don't like the movie it's because you're a ridiculous superfan with unreal expectations, or you're a bigot, or you're a sexist, or insert some other character flaw here. It is never because the movie wasn't good or the writing sucked.
No one here has even kinda said this.

Some people didn't like the recent films, TLJ in particular, and that's fine. What's ridiculous is feeling like anyone who does enjoy them is attacking your values, love of Star Wars, way of life, or God given right not to like them.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. Utterly despising a company or other fans for a movie you didn't like is a bit off kilter, however.
My big hangup with TLJ remains. It was a fine movie by itself; however it had these key sticking points for me:

  • Too many psych outs; too much incongruity with JJ Abrams' TFA
  • Some very odd side-plots (Canto bite, etc.)
  • Some really bad hijinks / cringe-worthy moments:

- Bombs "Dropping" in space (explainable in hindsight, but still "huh?")
- Turbolaser "mortars" curving in space?
- General Hux being a comic relief; no respect for the office / character (how does a person of his lack of caliber become the lead military man?)
- Rose "saving" Finn from being so far behind
- Rose in general
- Finn hauling Rose all the way back to the base on Crate without being noticed
- Luke considering murder of Ben Solo; WAY out of character
- Leia not freezing to death in the cold vacuum of space because surprise, she has deft Force skills
Ulrich
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Shortly after TLJ, I posted something to the effect of "how long is Disney going to keep making money on star wars if they keep having so much production turmoil and making flawed tentpoles? Given the results of that analysis, how long does Kennedy keep the reins?" I'm sure I'm remembering that quote in the best possible light for myself, but I view the results of Solo (thus far, I'm still hoping for a turnaround) as confirmation of my basic thesis.

That thesis is that the combination of production missteps, flawed movies, and insistence on explaining old things instead of creating new content will eventually drag the franchise down.

I really have three nits to pick with your theory. I don't have a Twitter or Instagram or wherever all this discussion takes place so I'm sure there's an element of truth to what you are saying, but here's my rebuttal:
1. If the saga movies were good, the uber fans would get on board even if things aren't quite how they imagined them. They would still b**** at first, but over time they would come around.
2. Those uber fans are your brand ambassadors. They are the ones who will carry the opening weekends and get offices talking. If they never come around, or worse feel like they are being insulted (and rightly or wrongly they are being insulted at times), they will still be out there shaping opinion as much as they can and not to the betterment of the franchise.
3. Marvel works because of the cool characters, not the tight plots. Same with the OT. R1 barely had characters and then they all died. Solo is about someone who is already dead. With the exception of the throne room scene, TLJ didn't have likeable characters. Everyone was tortured (Luke, Rey), irritating (Holdo, Rose), or washed out (Finn, Leia).

Now, maybe you interpret point 3 as "you're not sticking to the source material", but I don't see it that way at all. The "source material" of episodes IV-VII had much more engaging characters so I wish they had emulated that, but I don't care so much which characters, what powers they had, etc.

TL;DR
Star Wars should print money in the US. They have been doing things that will ultimately shorten the life of the franchise. Solo seems to indicate that the money train is slowing down. I'm not making a call on whether or not Kennedy is in trouble because I don't pretend to be an industry insider, but in my rarely humble opinion multiple strategic missteps can be laid at her doorstep.
AliasMan02
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bangobango said:

TCTTS said:

What's so ridiculous about it? Accurate or not, it's an interesting, nuanced take. Why ridicule someone for that?




Because it's a condescending post that explains that the reason there are Less people going to see these movies by claiming the fan base is GROWING, which is just ridiculous on its face. There is nothing nuanced about completely fabricating a theory unsupported by any facts, or in fact running in direct contradiction to any facts.

It's just more of the crap Disney and a lot of fans have been doing since the release of the Last Jedi - if you don't like the movie it's because you're a ridiculous superfan with unreal expectations, or you're a bigot, or you're a sexist, or insert some other character flaw here. It is never because the movie wasn't good or the writing sucked. I've never seen the pure disdain for a large portion of the fan base like what Disney has shown for star wars fans. And this guy is making himself out to be so superior to everyone who doesn't like it because he isn't "stuck in the original trilogy."

Bull. You don't mind it because you'll take whatever crap they shovel at you and choke it down and tell them "thank you, can I have some more?"



This is needlessly antagonistic and I think you're letting your emotions cloud your view of this.

You claim that fewer people are going to see these movies, when in fact that is only the case for a single underperforming movie. None of the last three "new" films have underperformed. Quite the opposite, in fact. The idea that Star Wars is somehow burning is unfounded.

The fan base for Star Wars IS growing. Disney is doing what they do best, manufacturing new fans from their youth. Star Wars had never been more mainstream in my lifetime. A whole generation is growing up with new Star Wars stories and characters. The franchise is infinitely more accessible to all genders and races, whether you view that as pandering or not.

I'm not making myself out to be superior. I'm only observing where I see the break in the Star Wars fandom, in the same way we saw it with superhero fandom. It's about holding the old as sacred versus taking it someplace new.

Look at the slate of new projects coming for Star Wars and tell me where you think Lucasfilm views the future of the franchise. Is it with the OT, Luke Skywalker, and the Empire? Or is it with new stories not tied to those things?

The fact that the OT will become a smaller and smaller part of Star Wars is just a matter of math.

You said it yourself, didn't you? You feel disrespected by Lucasfilm. You're out. Done. Is Lucasfilm chasing after you? Or are they giving Rian Johnson the reins to the next major installment of the franchise despite your hatred of him? What does this tell you about how the studio feels about those looking back versus those looking forward?
CJS4715
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SpreadsheetAg said:

- Luke considering murder of Ben Solo; WAY out of character



I know this has already been debated, but I don't get the argument on this one being so implausible. Good people consider terrible things, especially when it could potentially save their life's work. Luke still resisted, but there were grave consequences for his consideration.
Belton Ag
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bangobango said:

Belton Ag said:

Flashdiaz said:

bangobango said:




I've never seen the pure disdain for a large portion of the fan base like what Disney has shown for star wars fans.

How exactly is the company Disney doing this?


I must have missed the official Disney company released that labeled fans who didn't like TLJ as "bigots."


Abrams was unfazed. "'Star Wars' is a big galaxy, and you can sort of find almost anything you want to in 'Star Wars,'" he said. "If you are someone who feels threatened by women and needs to lash out against them, you can probably find an enemy in 'Star Wars.' You can probably look at the first movie that George [Lucas] did ['Star Wars: A New Hope'] and say that Leia was too outspoken, or she was too tough. Anyone who wants to find a problem with anything can find the problem. The internet seems to be made for that."
And this is Disney calling people bigots? That's quite a leap.
AliasMan02
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Production problems are a different animal, in my opinion. Lucasfilm has obviously had problems in that area. It's a factor in Solo both in marketing and in profitability, for sure. However, they mirror pretty closely the same issues that Marvel had early on... the studio messing with IM2. Running off or firing directors like Jon Favreau and Patty Jenkins. Etc.

That's a different conversation than a "spiritual" one about the soul of the franchise. I don't think production issues are the root of what divides the fanbase.
Flashdiaz
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CJS4715 said:

SpreadsheetAg said:

- Luke considering murder of Ben Solo; WAY out of character



I know this has already been debated, but I don't get the argument on this one being so implausible. Good people consider terrible things, especially when it could potentially save their life's work. Luke still resisted, but there were grave consequences for his consideration.
agree. Luke raged on his own father, cut off his hand and almost killed him. All he did with Ben is ignite his saber for a second after he saw the darkness in him. Maybe he saw visions of Kylo destroying the Jedi temple with all the pupils, killing Han and blowing Leia into space. Luke was never 100% good, he always was on the line with the darkside.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Nobody owes you an apology for not liking a movie. Did Lucas ever apologize to you for the prequels?

You are the epitome of a millennial snowflake. (And I don't even know your age.)

If you don't like what they're putting out, stop watching the movies and move on with your life.
Belton Ag
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Quote:

The screen writers response to people being upset that Lando's "pansexuality" is being wedged into a movie most people enjoy taking their kids to go see. There were numerous similar dismissive statements and tweets by Rian Johnson and other Disney reps after The Last Jedi.
There were no scenes in this movie where Lando tried to take a gay lover or where he tried to screw his robot. There was some sexual tension between the robot and Lando that was played up as humor as the robot was clearly misreading Lando's fondness for her as a sexual attraction.

I get the annoying tweet but what matters is what's on the screen, not what some leftist wants to say on his own twitter feed.
Brian Earl Spilner
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From his point of view the Jedi are evil.
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