Star Wars Discussion Thread

Simplebay
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that entrance for Flynn was very cool. good reference. and i would love seeing wise Luke become the "new" (see: old) Yoda. none of this Yoda with a lightsaber crap.
benMath08
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I'd like to see him spar a student at the academy and he just stands there, not moving, turning off their saber with the force whenever it would strike him.
AliasMan02
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There's one thing that I left out of my write-up that I hope makes it into the new canon: no robes for Jedi.

I remember reading the novelization of Star Wars when I was a kid, and one thing that stuck with me was that it talked about that Jedi of the Old Republic wore flashy clothing, basically the opposite of what Kenobi wore. Obi-wan wore robes because he was a hermit in the desert, not because he was a Jedi. As a Jedi in hiding throughout the Dark Times, why would he have worn Jedi regalia ALL THE TIME?

This was changed in the prequels of course, and Jedi in robes makes sense if it was basically a monastic order as we saw in Eps I-III. But, all of the original intent clearly points to the Jedi being knights and warriors and soldiers, the great heroes of the Old Republic.

Hopefully that's more what Luke's Jedi Order turns into, because it's different, and sets up a lot better for the story. One of the big problems with the prequels is that the Jedi, supposedly the main protagonists, are always running away from conflict or mulling things over in Council, only having to repeatedly be written into situations that forced them to act. It got pretty old, pretty fast.

I just hope that we get proactive Jedi that aren't supposed to be passive monks all the time.
BillOnCapitolHill
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I always wanted to see jedi battles that are more force centered. It always seemed dumb to me that the stronger with the Force you are, the better the fencer you are. Force-jump has been overused and poorly executed. Why cant we get someone throwing his lightsaber and retrieving it via the force? Why cant we have someone downing a space ship on top of his opponent? Why not firing electricity whilst fighting with the saber?

Could you imagine a kungfu jedi that manipulated his opponent with force push, like moving the right foot back, or force grabbing you into a full nelson. As a jedi, his mind is his weapon, not this crude material here <grabs muscle> .
redline248
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That's how they fight in the novelizations, but I guess it's hard to show on screen.

Ep II novelization made a point to talk about how often Anakin was using the force to cut off Dooku in their fight. How do you show on screen an invisible barrier keeping someone from moving in a direction?

As to lightning, well, only the Sith used that, and even Dooku told Yoda "mastery of the force won't decide this battle."

But finding a way to mix more force usage into the fights is a good idea.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Yoda vs. Palps was almost exclusively force-centric.
MuckRaker96
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Yoda/Palps was a gorgeous fight - and directed by Steven Spielberg.
BillOnCapitolHill
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quote:
only the Sith used that
Thats kind of a gray area:







Lets not forget the Krath as well.

[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 3/19/2014 2:16p).]
benMath08
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quote:
Thats kind of a gray area:

Although I would love to see a focus on a "gray area" force user, Star Wars is supposed to be about Good vs Evil more than anything else, is it not?
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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Spielberg directed the Yoda-Emperor duel in Sith?
Red Five
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quote:
I always wanted to see jedi battles that are more force centered. It always seemed dumb to me that the stronger with the Force you are, the better the fencer you are. Force-jump has been overused and poorly executed. Why cant we get someone throwing his lightsaber and retrieving it via the force? Why cant we have someone downing a space ship on top of his opponent? Why not firing electricity whilst fighting with the saber?
The first trailer released by BioWare for The Old Republic had a fantastic Jedi fight sequence like that. I think actually all 3 of the trailers they made prior to release had some good fights. anyway look them up.

[This message has been edited by Red Five (edited 3/19/2014 3:58p).]
BillOnCapitolHill
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quote:
quote:
Thats kind of a gray area:

Although I would love to see a focus on a "gray area" force user, Star Wars is supposed to be about Good vs Evil more than anything else, is it not?

One could argue their adherence to good is what brought unbalance to the force.

The point is force lightning, like a gun, is amoral, not immoral. It only has goodness or badness when it's given a context. If a jedi restarts someone's heart, or kills a sith, both with force lightning, which action is evil?
benMath08
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quote:
One could argue their adherence to good is what brought unbalance to the force.

The point is force lightning, like a gun, is amoral, not immoral. It only has goodness or badness when it's given a context. If a jedi restarts someone's heart, or kills a sith, both with force lightning, which action is evil?

This is discussed more than once in the EU. Pretty much any character who believes that turns to the dark side. I think it makes for a good story, I'm just saying that one of things that made the original trilogy great was the clear battle of Good vs Evil and Light vs Dark. The prequels sort of screwed that up with Morally Aloof Jedi vs ...Power Hungry Senator controlling a trade organization?
redline248
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Force lightning is the manifestation of dark side power.
Brian Earl Spilner
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quote:
Power Hungry Senator controlling a trade organization?


Well, he was also a Sith who murdered his teacher and then basically the entire Jedi order.

In his case I think it was pretty clear cut, he's dark.

[This message has been edited by Brian Earl Spilner (edited 3/19/2014 4:32p).]
BillOnCapitolHill
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Force lightning is the manifestation of dark side power.


1) according to whom?

2) what powers are light side exclusive?

redline248
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Well, according to Yoda, for starters. You know that whole stand off b/w him and Dooku where Dooku thinks he's going to own Yoda with the lightning and Yoda is all, "yo that's just some dark side you b_tch."


Also, it's called Sith lightning most of the time.

Plus, if we want to go by strictly movies, did you ever see a Jedi use it? Hell, Anakin and Obi-Wan acted surprised it was even possible when Dooku shredded Anakin.
BillOnCapitolHill
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Can you name one power that is jedi exclusive?

I thought jedi is stood for truth and goodness, yet the "Jedi" mind trick is all about deception and coercion

[This message has been edited by billoncapitolhill (edited 3/19/2014 5:16p).]
benMath08
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quote:
Well, he was also a Sith who murdered his teacher and then basically the entire Jedi order.

In his case I think it was pretty clear cut, he's dark.

Can you even call him the main antagonist for any of the three prequels though?
quote:
1) according to whom?

According to anyone who's ever written Star Wars material, including Lucas.

[This message has been edited by benMath08 (edited 3/19/2014 7:54p).]
redline248
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quote:
Can you name one power that is jedi exclusive?


Ability to come back as a ghost after death.

If a Jedi is using a mind trick on an evil or corrupted individual to accomplish a good objective, is that a bad thing?
BillOnCapitolHill
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So what your saying is abilities aren't evil unless they are done by evil force users...that's funny cuz that's the exact point I made about manipulating electrical currents.

Why would the good jedi learn to deceive at all, isn't deception one of tools of the sith?
BillOnCapitolHill
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And the ability to ghost is not jedi exclusive, see Exar Kun.

And just because you only saw yoda, Ben, and anakin, doesn't mean the emperor didn't ghost as well. Hell there hadn't been a sith for thousands of years, and you are saying the absence of evidence of a sith ghost is the evidence of absence.
redline248
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I believe Exar Kun was a different kind of deal. He used the force to hold his consciousness in a sort of animated state, waiting for a new host body to take over. That's damn evil, right there.

We are made to understand that the Sith had no knowledge of the ability to come back as a ghost. 2 reasons: 1) Palpatine tells of Plagueis learning to keep people from dying...why do that if they know how to become a ghost? Can still influence things as a ghost. 2) Obi-Wan tells Vader "strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can imagine" (or something like that). Vader was like, whatever, and then had no idea what happened when Obi-Wan's body just disappears.

Also, in the Clone Wars cartoon (and in Ep III) Yoda talks about Qui-Gon reaching out from beyond and other Jedi think it's impossible. It was a brand new thing that Yoda discovered.


To your point about evil action, manipulating electrical currents...I think it is likely the Jedi can manipulate existing electricity with the Force, but they do not create it. Lightning is a destructive element and the Jedi don't use the Force for destruction.
MuckRaker96
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quote:
Can you name one power that is jedi exclusive?


Hittin' it.

BillOnCapitolHill
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Where to begin, since I'm on a phone, I'll just say that you misinterpret ben's statements, he was referring to empowering Luke. Ghost Ben was NOT powerful.
redline248
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Well, since you threw a book at me, let me throw one back. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Told from Vader's perspective, he was absolutely in the dark about what happened at that moment and was pissed b/c he thought it was something else Obi-Wan didn't teach him. At this point, it had been about 20 years since he became a Sith. Don't you think Palps would have taught him about that sort of thing if he knew it?

Also, I'd say being able to come back in ghost form and continue teaching/influencing Luke is a bit on the powerful side of the scale.
Red Five
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Exar Kun was explicitly stated to have no ability to manifest his presence outside of the general area of the Sith temples he built on Yavin 4. Ben appears to Luke on Dagobah and Endor, as well as speaking to Luke over the first Death Star at Yavin. Anakin likewise appears on Endor as well as appearing to Leia after the destruction of the second Death Star, although i cant remember if it was at Bakura or before when they were still at Endor. Just to clarify that its clearly different what Jedi have done after death vs what the Sith have done.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Muckraker, who is that in the pic? It's hard to make out.
Ganondorf
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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning

quote:
Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."



Also, healing is light side only.
BillOnCapitolHill
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Vader is a terrible example of continuity. Especially if ghosting knowledge is passed down by jedi, who taught vader/anakin between ep4 and ep6?

The truth is we only see two jedi die from the 1970s to the 1990s. Then we see vader die (his body never disappears, he is never taught ghosting, yet he still ends up as a ghost. So for thirty years it was understood that people of the force become ghosts when they die. But then you have a shtton of jedi die in the ep1 and ep2, Lucas forgets to explain it, then in ep3 they toss it in at the end. Oh so it's an exclusive trait only for the powerful, and the recently converted, jedi. Got it!
BillOnCapitolHill
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Healing may be a great addition to video games, but if you take lightsaber in the movies you are effed.


Back to inventive force powers...If the force binds us and penetrates us, I want to see someone who wields the force Jean Grey some xavier. Just separate someones matter.
redline248
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But Anakin was the Chosen One along with being the only case of redemption.
Ganondorf
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Bill, either we stick to the movies or we stick with EU, you brought up Exar Kun then use the movies to say ghosting is every force user.

Healing is used in several EU books and characters and is Jedi only.
BillOnCapitolHill
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Both have continuity issues and lazy writing. Here you are saying healing is jedi only, when anakin hasnt heard of jedis having the power to heal. If that were the case, he could have just sent portman to Master Theresea for a jedi sweat lodge and he isnt tempted to learn about the ways ofmthe sith (who according to the emperor did have the ability to heal).

My point is we can go round and round because of the poor writing of lucas and the EU or we can just accept that force powers are mystical and faction neutral.

This arguement is silly, yall are saying "its called sith choke and only sith can use it" but its clearly just the manipulation of solid matter so its no different than "force pull" but focused on a dude's trachea.
redline248
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Anakin was lured to Palpatine b/c the Jedi would likely have turned away Padme and expelled Anakin. He went to Yoda first, and was not happy when all Yoda had to say was "don't be sad, be glad instead."

Besides, it's not like anything was wrong with her at the time for the Jedi to do anything about. You can't heal an injury that hasn't happened yet.

As to the force powers, they are in a way specific to light or dark side. A Jedi that force chokes a beech is not using the light side.
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