So many are asking was it a dream or was it real...

The movie actually gives you guidelines to elucidate the answer to that question.

Rule #1: Does the totem stop spinning or does it continue indefinitely?

Rule #2: How did the story begin?


With regards to #1 the top continues to spin. It makes noises like it is coming to a stop but somehow continues on. It would be erroneous, and in a sense a 'leap of faith', to assume the top will come to a stop. As the film ends the top IS still spinning and the screen goes black, in a sense we are all in limbo.

With regards to #2 think about how the movie begins. How did Leo get to where he was? How did he get washed up on the beach? Can't remember...



As was mentioned earlier, Leo's wife emerged from the dream and planted the idea in her husband's head to help remove him from the dream world so he could rejoin his family in the real world. But Leo resists and continues to imagine in the dream world (reuniting with a thief in Mumbai, meeting up with an underground chemist, partaking in international corporate espionage, raiding a secret snowed-in fortress, etc.). These things sound like a dream.

Leo's character is at a crossroads however now that his wife has departed the dream world. Everything they had worked to build as architects was now crumbling (remember the buildings on the shore?) and he needed a new framework...enter Ellen Page's character. This new architecture and newly created story line allows him to continue living in the dream world. His wife's desperate attempt at inception ultimately fails and he continues on in the dream world.


Our dreams are a constant battle between the subconscious and the conscience. Our subconscious briefly wins the battle during sleep and creates dreams. When you wake the battle intensifies and ultimately the conscience restores balance in the real world and works feverishly to erase the dream from your mind (remember when Leo's character asks why is it so hard to remember the dream after you wake up?). Occasionally the subconscious has fleeting victories and you are able to recall parts or even the entirety of a dream but the conscience wins the war b/c it tells you that dream was not real.

Leo's character's subconscious is in strict control and has conquered his conscience.

The first scene sounds more important than I thought. I really do have to watch it again...

Box office predictions for the weekend have it at about $55 million. Kinda disappointed, expected it to open in the 70 to 80 range myself. I do think it will have major legs though, probably won't drop much next weekend.

I think this movie requires too much thinking for the average movie goer, and unfortunately will not be a box office super hit.

It will not have a box-office smash hit opening weekend. It will, however, be at or near the top for a while due to positive word-of-mouth. On some days, I feel like movies don't give the audience enough credit and that most moviegoers are actually pretty receptive to "smart" movies. But then I'll happen to see that Transformers was hugely popular, and I lose most of my faith in humanity.

------------ MEGA SPOILERS IN THIS WHOLE POST ---------------



------------ SERIOUSLY STOP READING IF YOU HAVENT SEEN ---------------------




I think the whole "was it real life at the end thing" is intriguing, but first I just want to see if I can figure out the dynamics of what was actually going on. Let me see if I have this, someone correct me if the following is wrong:

Here are the layers I have assuming that the end/Michael Caine/etc was actually Reality:

Level 0 ("Reality": The plane, Michael Caine, the kids, whatever.

Level 1 (The Van): Yusuf, the sedator's dream (since they made fun of him for the rain). He has to stay awake in it. Importantly, this is the level you can NOT die in, since if you die here, you can't wake up because of the crazy sedation in reality.

Level 2 (The Hotel): Arthur, the sidekick guy's dream (he stays awake in it).

Level 3 (The Arctic): I guess it was Eames, the forger's dream, since he stays awake. Not really sure.

Level 4 (The Ruined City): Cobb's dream. This looks now like what the original limbo Cobb and his wife were stuck in (because Cobb knows it so well it is the place he would create) but is now just another labyrinth. It was unplanned that they go here, but he and Ellen do.

Level X (Limbo): Unconnected from the above- this is you go if you die in Level 1, thus your mind can't go anywhere else, so you wind up here.

Rules: If you die or get properly woken, you go up a level. If you die in level 1, you go to limbo until woken in reality.

Ok so the way I see it, Saito, the Chinese guy, dies in level 1 (even though we see him die in level 3, he actually dies from the wound in level 1) so he is screwed, and goes to limbo. There is still several seconds left in level 1 before they get woken up in level 0, which is a long ass time, so he becomes an old man in limbo.

When in level 4, Leo needs to go get Saito, but Ellen is going to go back with Cillian, so she kills herself and Cillian to wake up in level 3, and eventually go back to 1. Leo though does not kill himself, he just stays in level 4, but since there was no timer in level 3 to wake him, he never wakes up, and thus never wakes up for 2, or 1, and so he drowns in level 1, putting him in limbo. Luckily, since that was late in the game, he is only in limbo for enough time to remind Saito that that place is actually limbo and not some kind of reality, and then they get woken up in real life.

So that is my basic theory, but it opens up some holes- mainly, how did Cillian get down to level 4? By the rules above, when he was shot in level 3 he should have woken up in the hotel in level 2, not gone down to Cobb's dream which wasn't even activated yet.

The most common answer my friends had is that what I am calling level 4 and limbo is actually the same place, and that is why everyone is there. But this doesn't make sense to me, because you shouldn't be able to sleep INTO limbo, as Cobb and Ellen Paige would have had to do. Limbo isn't a static 4 levels down or anything, it is where the mind goes when there is no where else to go.

So what am I missing? I feel like these parts are so close to making sense that they were meant to be ironed out, even if the overarching reality is left to interpretation, but maybe not.

------------ END SPOILERS -------------------


Freaking great flick though.

Good post, Source. I myself have been trying to figure out the rules behind "limbo" in the layered dreams. So in my opinion, the "ruined city" (what you called layer 4) is actually limbo (which is shared by everybody). Fisher gets shot, and therefore dies and goes to limbo. Cobb links up with Fisher and joins him in limbo, where Mal (incidentally Latin for bad) is projected. I forget how Ellen Paige's character ends up there, though.

--------- SPOILERS AGAIN -------------------


Cobb links with Paige though, not Fischer, who is dead in level 3.

One possibility is that maybe level 4 is like a hybrid of level 4 and limbo, only because Cobb knows where limbo is because he has been there before, and thus can comprehend it and force his mind to go there from level 3. So 4 is really limbo, but since Paige has somewhere her mind can go, she can kill herself and get back to level 3.

I guess same with Fischer, who dies in limbo as he is getting jolted in level 3, so his mind can go back there, although that is a stretch.

Thinking about it more though, I take back what I said- there is no way it will all fit together, there are too many plot holes that seem unsolvable, such as:

1) Even if the others missed the first "jolt" from level 1 on the bridge because they were in level 3, JGL should have woken up to level 1 since he was still awake in level 2, and not been able to orchestrate the whole elevator thing.

2) The concept of multiple layers of dreams controlled by different people doesn't make sense, since there is no actual chemical sedative administered in a dream, it is just a figment of someone's subconscious, so there should be no way to "jolt" someone from layer 2 to 3, or change controllers, or anything.

3) Fischer's miraculous healing powers in level 3 once he comes back (after it is shown that healing doesn't happen between layers via Saito).


------------ END SPOILERS -------------

I suppose I could be missing something though.

------- MORE SPOILER DISCUSSION -------

Source:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the rules were a little different:

1) Typically, when you get shot in a dream, you wake up. But that causes "instability" and won't let you go into multiple layers. When you get into layers 2 & 3, things become very unstable normally.

2) In order to avoid the "stability issues", they work with the chemist to make a sedative that "removes" the getting shot rule. But it doesn't impact your inner ear function so you can still feel the sensation of falling, which will wake you up. This is why they keep talking about the "jolt". That is the only way to wake up with the new sedative.

3) Now, once they go into the first level (the van), Siato gets shot. As they go deeper, his injuries get less because time extends. But again, getting shot does no good because you can't wake up from that. That's why he goes into "limbo" (the crumbling city). This also explain why Cillian ends up in limbo when Mal shoots him instead of going up to level 2.

4) As far as being able to "sleep into limbo", remember, it was Mal that shot Cillian and took him to limbo. Then Cobb sleeps and goes to Mal's limbo (where she took him) because he's been there before. So while it was just "another level down" for Cobb and Ellen, it was limbo for Mal and Cillian.

-- My Ending Theory --

Personally, I think he did get back to reality. Remember, when they showed the top spinning in limbo in the safe, it didn't waiver or anything. It just spun indefinitely and never moved. But when he spun it with his kids, it did start to waiver. We didn't see it fall, but it was being affected by gravity/reality which it hadn't before.

Now, the one hole in that theory is if it's Cobb's dream, he will know how the top should react, so it would fall over even if it is a dream. Things work they way they should when you are in your dream. And remember, they went into Cobb's dream to get Saito and Cillian from Mal.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but that's what I think.

-------------- IF YOU ARE STILL READING THIS AND HAVENT SEEN THE MOVIE THEN YOU ARE INSANE ------------------

Ok I found a quote from the movie and now am on board with the "all deaths to limbo" theory. Quote:

Arthur: "Just raw, infinite subconscious. Nothing is down there, except for whatever might have been left behind by anyone sharing the dream who's been trapped there before. (to Cobb) Which, in our case, is just you."

So ok, only Cobb has the power to imagine himself into limbo. However, I'm still confused then how Ellen was able to get back up to level 3, but Cobb did not. Possible answers:

1) In limbo you need 2 jolts to go back up, a jolt in limbo AND a jolt in the last level you were at. So Fischer got the defibrillator and fell off the ledge, and Ellen got the building blown up and fell off. Cobb never had a jolt in limbo, so stayed.

2) In limbo when you die your mind sort of restarts, since there is nowhere else to go, so it just searches for the nearest consciousness to get to (thus, it obeys the death rule). So Fischer got lucky with perfect timing of the defibrillator, and Ellen easily went back to 3.

I like #2 best, because there needed to be some significance to showing Leo drowning in the van in my opinion, and also some explanation for Leo winding up on the shores near Saito, when that was nowhere near his city he was in before.


So here is the possible chronology:

- Saito dies in level 1 (even though we only notice in level 3). Since its a level 1 death, he is there for a very long time.
- Fischer dies in level 3 and goes to limbo (not there as long).
- Cobb and Ellen Paige go to limbo, which is remnants from Cobb's first visit there.
- Ellen and Fischer die, restarting their mind, and getting back to level 3.
- Fischer gets miraculous unexplained healing powers and walks around normally. This is either a plot hole, or a added benefit of having your mind restart after dying in limbo.
- With everyone awake in level 3 but Cobb and Saito, people get jolted back to level 2. Since Eames was controlling level 3, it crumbles away, and as we saw the hybrid limbo/level 4 is extremely unstable, since Cobb has forced his way in.
- All the level 2 people awake get jolted to level 1 in the water. Most escape to the shore.
- About this time, I'm assuming either the hybrid limbo collapses enough to kill Cobb, OR, Cobb dies from his wife stabbing him. His mind reboots, but only finds a level 1 body drowning in a car, so he either wakes up in level 1 in time to drown, or just restarts in limbo. Since by then Saito has been in limbo for a very long time and Cobb hasn't dreamed his way into it, Saito has control of limbo now, so it looks like what he is familiar with (the house with all the lights).
- Leo talks to him telling him about reality and reminding him of the deal, etc.
- They finally wake up into reality.

Ok, I think that could possibly work. My head hurts.

Good movie...not great though imho. I enjoyed Shutter Island a lot more. Same kind of twist/discussion-inspiring-event at the end, but the plot was less dense.

Don't get me wrong, I love movies that make me think...but this plot was just really dense.

if i remember correctly:

towards the end of their conversation, when Leo is at the table talking with Saito about how he is there to get him, one of them reaches for the gun. Which i assumed was them killing eachother or themselves in order to escape that limbo and get kicked back up.

I am guessing since leo has been in limbo before, he knew that was the way out. like when they killed themselves with their heads on the train track

That is what I'm thinking mucho. That he picks up the gun and they kill themselves. Leo says he's asking him him to take a leap of faith.

But on purpose we don't actually see the kill themselves in limbo and it is left to us to decide if the did or not. As for me I think it ended with them in reality.

<spoiler alert>





I think when someone died in any dream level (under the heavy sedation) they go to limbo... which is unstructured subconscious. A normal dream gets its structure from the architect (Ellen Page). So Ellen designed 3 levels of dreams, but she didn't design anything for level 4. That's why they are able to sleep into limbo after level 3.

Cobb and Saito are the only two left in limbo at the end cause they are the only two that died (Fischer was resuscitated in the dream). Saito died before Cobb, which is why he's so much older than him in limbo.





</spoiler alert>

******* SPOILERS *********







I'm not sure if I'm the only one but I thought that Leo & Ellen Page went into Limbo through Fischer's subconcious. Technically Fischer was flatlined but his mind was still active in Limbo so they hooked themselves up through Fischer and reached there. Fischer was eventually shocked back into life.




******* END SPOILERS *******

Seems like a kick from the real world should pull you through all three levels at once. I've had dreams within dreams before and I don't recall needing to wake up from the second level in the first level before waking up in the real world.

Just nitpicking. I absolutely enjoyed the movie.

quote:

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The defibrillator was the kick for Cobb, Fischer, and Ariadne. Fischer wasn't shocked back to life, he woke up after Ariadne threw him off the balcony.

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I don't think so... i think the explosive charges they set all around the fortess were the kick for that level, the defibrillator was just to bring him back to life

quote:

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I've had dreams within dreams before and I don't recall needing to wake up from the second level in the first level before waking up in the real world.

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were you on custom-made chemicals at the time?

*** SPOILERS ***

The final shot isn't meant to be examined in a "Is this still a dream?" kind of way. It's meant to examined thematically. Notice that Cobb is immediately distracted after spinning his totem. He never sees whether it stops or not and that's the point. It doesn't matter what happens to the totem. Ultimately, we make our own reality. There's nothing or no one that can truly tell us what is real and what is not.

On a side note...

*** SPOILERS ***

If, as shown, Cobb and Mal grew to old age in their shared dream, how/why were they young again at the end of the dream when they "killed" themselves on the train track?

SPOILERS

Actually, they weren't young. There was a quick shot where it showed them in old age clasping hands. It showed them young so that it would help the narrative along letting the audience link the track scene with Cobb and Mal instead of two old actors.

[This message has been edited by Head Ninja In Charge (edited 7/18/2010 2:24a).]

Killing yourself in Limbo is the only way to get out of it and wake up.

**SPOILER**








**SPOILER**








**SPOILER**








My theory: He was in a dream at the end. Not reality. Why I think it was a dream: He's in the exact same position in his house, and his kids are doing the exact same thing and in the exact same position as they were whenever he was dreaming. Remember when Leo turned his head when his wife called the kids in his subconscious? So obviously the kids can respond to someone in a dream. I have a feeling that Cain was in on it. He took him back to the place that Leo WISHED he could have seen his kids faces and that is exactly what he did.

If it was reality, why weren't the kids inside the house watching television or doing something different than they were in his dreams?

Side Note - I think the ending would have been nuts if we saw Leo walk out to his kids and then we saw Cain walk towards the door and knock over the Toteum.









**SPOILER**








**SPOILER**








**SPOILER**

[This message has been edited by dan87 (edited 7/18/2010 9:28a).]

There is no right ending.....it was left up to let the audience decide for themselves whether it stopped or not.....I'm in the boat that I feel like it stopped spinning

quote:

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If, as shown, Cobb and Mal grew to old age in their shared dream, how/why were they young again at the end of the dream when they "killed" themselves on the train track?

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I don't think that was the end of the limbo dream. That was simply them killing themselves together in another dream, as it was clear they used the dream sharing device quite often. I also don't believe the dream in which they went into limbo and grew old was their final dream together.

I think jack dawson was still in his own dream, ie not in reality. His mind got to the point at which it could not distinguish between the two, and he thought he was in reality. There was no attempted inception by mal; jack simply did not wake up from the dream when mal killed herself.

Dan87, i thought the movie had the perfect ending, but i like your's better, haha.

quote:

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quote:
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I've had dreams within dreams before and I don't recall needing to wake up from the second level in the first level before waking up in the real world.
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were you on custom-made chemicals at the time?

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I plead the FIF

Everyone knows Leo died in limbo. What this movie presupposes is... maybe he didn't?

Pretty good breakdown though. I'll give you a call to talk it out.

just saw it again today. best summer movie i have seen in a while.
end was great. i would have made his kids close to 10 years older at the end than that last time he saw them though.

But then that wouldn't make sense.

I loved the movie, however my one problem with the story was when the van drove off the bridge causing the avalanche. Cobb states that must have been kick #1 and that they have to finish before they get kick #2 when they hit the water. However if driving off the bridge was considered a kick it would have woken Arthur who was in charge of the kick in tier 2. Just a minor detail which they easily could/should have corrected so it bugged me.

Didn't they say that the kick might not be "strong" enough, which is why it didn't wake anyone up?

I thought he heard the kick but it was too late because everything wasnt set up yet? I remember the van got driven off the bridge earlier then expected....

I could be completely wrong also.

Great movie, I am going to see it again this week. I will understand it more in depth the second time.