This is a lie or pure ignorance. Show me one precedent where a court upheld a private employer requiring a vaccine mandate as a condition of employment.ORAggieFan said:I'm against mandates. I'm just stating that your argument is pretty worthless.SoupNazi2001 said:ORAggieFan said:How many global pandemics were there in those 20 years?SoupNazi2001 said:Another Doug said:
You have the individual right not to tell them, and they have the individual right to fire you.
Also, know that anyone with an Ag tag advising you to fight, has probably gotten and disclosed a required vaccine at one point in their life.
I've never had a private employer ask for my vaccine record in over 20 years in the corporate world. Stop trying to normalize this.
Think what you want about mandates, but arguments like this don't help.
The vaccine isn't slowing the spread. No basis for mandates when that is the case. There are countries with 80%+ vaccination rates and have record cases. Also mandates don't factor in natural immunity which is junk science.
Whether or not mandates make sense is irrelevant to the OP. The courts have been consistent on this regarding individual employer mandates.
Employer Requests For Vaccination Status (Michigan)
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Last: 1 yr ago by Signel
OP, hang in there; the unlawful mandates are slowly being cancelled.
Boeing announced today cancellation of its mandate:
https://www.union-bulletin.com/seattle_times/boeing-drops-vaccine-mandate-for-u-s-employees/article_a59d9e2a-49a0-5e39-a489-470ffaac8969.html
Boeing announced today cancellation of its mandate:
https://www.union-bulletin.com/seattle_times/boeing-drops-vaccine-mandate-for-u-s-employees/article_a59d9e2a-49a0-5e39-a489-470ffaac8969.html
What is unlawful about a private employer mandate?
Yes, I am. Should the states not be the ones making decisions for their individual states, considering they have better data? I mean, this is what's actually happening, but only because the judiciary is doing its job.Another Doug said:You are asking why America's Center of Disease Control is the center of controlling diseases in America.ChrisTAMU said:Another Doug said:Countries with centralized health care systems can produce those numbers pretty easy. CDC is dependent on the data from the states, and none of that is terribly detailed or consistent.ChrisTAMU said:
Unfortunately, as you know, this stopped being about logic a long time ago. As noted by the fact that CDC cannot produce a single case of an individual getting Covid twice.
Then why are they making overarching decisions for the entire country?
There is zero precedent for an affirmative requirement to be vaccinated by a private employer.ORAggieFan said:
What is unlawful about a private employer mandate?
How is it lawful?
If your employer can run a background check on you and compel you to turn over bodily fluids to test what you might have ingested, they're not going to get in a lot of trouble by asking if you've taken a vaccine or not.
I agree with you. Requiring the opposite, however (i.e., placing something in your body), has no basis in law relating to a private entity.blacksox said:
If your employer can run a background check on you and compel you to turn over bodily fluids to test what you might have ingested, they're not going to get in a lot of trouble by asking if you've taken a vaccine or not.
The better question is how is it illegal? An employer (depending on the state) can **** can you for whatever reason as long as there isn't a law against it.End Of Message said:There is zero precedent for an affirmative requirement to be vaccinated by a private employer.ORAggieFan said:
What is unlawful about a private employer mandate?
How is it lawful?
Right, so long as it not illegal.
Show me where OSHA has the legal authority to cause mandates?
Why can't I require a woman to take birth control as a condition of employment? Birth control is legal.
Show me where OSHA has the legal authority to cause mandates?
Why can't I require a woman to take birth control as a condition of employment? Birth control is legal.
Hospitals have had vaccine and Tb testing requirements for years as a condition of employment.
That may be, but I am not aware of any legal precedent to challenge that.
What about big tech? Or oil and gas companies? What business do they have requiring vaccines, when never before they did for any other disease?
What about big tech? Or oil and gas companies? What business do they have requiring vaccines, when never before they did for any other disease?
End Of Message said:I have not gotten the vaccine, nor will I ever for the foreseeable future. I have told my partners as such, and they agree that no such requirement can legally be required, nor did they care based on the science.Another Doug said:
You have the individual right not to tell them, and they have the individual right to fire you.
Also, know that anyone with an Ag tag advising you to fight, has probably gotten and disclosed a required vaccine at one point in their life.
This is the hill to die on.
I completely agree. 100% fighting for. Do not compromise your values.
115 or so Methodist employees sued for being fired for refusing the COVID vaccine. Lost in court. Personally though I am not aware of businesses that were not either healthcare, LTC facilities, or the military really having vaccine requirements before.
Ahh, I do remember that case but admittedly did not follow it closely. To be honest, I can understand an employer mandate for hospitals given employees close interactions with sick people.
I don't agree with it, but I can at least acknowledge the logic.
I highly disagree with mandates in any other sector. It is dystopian, likely unlawful, and contradictory to our basic understanding of personal liberty.
I don't agree with it, but I can at least acknowledge the logic.
I highly disagree with mandates in any other sector. It is dystopian, likely unlawful, and contradictory to our basic understanding of personal liberty.
End Of Message said:
Right, so long as it not illegal.
Exactly
End Of Message said:
Show me where OSHA has the legal authority to cause mandates?
That is not the conversation at all, this topic is about a private employer.
End Of Message said:
Why can't I require a woman to take birth control as a condition of employment? Birth control is legal.
It has nothing to do with if the task is illegal, it whether or not there is a law on the books that makes firing a person for a certain reason is illegal. There are a handful of laws that have all sorts of protection for pregnancy issues.
Don't like it, start voting for a party that is willing to impose these type of restrictions on businesses, good luck finding one.
That is an incorrect legal analysis, but I'll leave it at that we disagree.
You're right Doug, and this is what the is the biggest cause of concern for me. And should be for everyoen else.
When large corporations start doing the will of the government to circumvent the traditional path (legal path) for getting things put in place then WE as in the United States citizens have a serious issue.
As to everyone that responded "not a hill to die on"
When is it your hill to die on? Because if that hill is your door step it's too late.
When large corporations start doing the will of the government to circumvent the traditional path (legal path) for getting things put in place then WE as in the United States citizens have a serious issue.
As to everyone that responded "not a hill to die on"
When is it your hill to die on? Because if that hill is your door step it's too late.
Woods Ag said:
You're right Doug, and this is what the is the biggest cause of concern for me. And should be for everyoen else.
When large corporations start doing the will of the government to circumvent the traditional path (legal path) for getting things put in place then WE as in the United States citizens have a serious issue.
As to everyone that responded "not a hill to die on"
When is it your hill to die on? Because if that hill is your door step it's too late.
We have had it too easy for too long as a society. There is no hill these people will die on. Weak men make hard times - this is how great civilizations collapse.
Corporations aren't doing the will of the government. They will make the moves that they believe are best for the company. IMO, It makes no difference what the fed or companies do , because ultimately if COVID is around at this severity for the long haul it's the health insurance companies that will "mandate" it via increased premiums on individuals or groups that don't get it.
Severity???? The sniffles???
That's bull*****
It's not severe. And if the health insurance would mandate it how come they haven't mandated that you not be a fat slob?
It's not severe. And if the health insurance would mandate it how come they haven't mandated that you not be a fat slob?
Another Doug said:
Corporations aren't doing the will of the government. They will make the moves that they believe are best for the company. IMO, It makes no difference what the fed or companies do , because ultimately if COVID is around at this severity for the long haul it's the health insurance companies that will "mandate" it via increased premiums on individuals or groups that don't get it.
This is ridiculous. Why don't we get banks on board and they can block all charges at fast food restaurants also.
They do "mandate" it via higher premiums.
That's not mandating, but you're right htey do charge all of us higher premiums for the fat folk..
So if I have to pay for them, then they can pay for me.
You can call it apples to apples when they start firing fat people for being fat. And if that day comes, I can promise I'll stand up for your right to be fat, as well.
So if I have to pay for them, then they can pay for me.
You can call it apples to apples when they start firing fat people for being fat. And if that day comes, I can promise I'll stand up for your right to be fat, as well.
ORAggieFan said:
What is unlawful about a private employer mandate?
Lawful and wrong don't have to be the same. That's the whole ****ing point of fighting back. This shouldn't be normal. Period. You're just appeasing them.
How is this in principle different than asking a woman if she's pregnant? Or asking if someone has cancer?
My semiconductor employer does business with the US government. I've had to wear a mask every day since the start. In the beginning, I was required to carry papers to justify being out of the house. We were required to show shot records also.
Big hairy deal. I don't see why this is such drama for some people. I'm guessing these folks could never work in a clean room or a hospital or anywhere that required protective clothing of any kind.
Big hairy deal. I don't see why this is such drama for some people. I'm guessing these folks could never work in a clean room or a hospital or anywhere that required protective clothing of any kind.
HECUBUS said:
My semiconductor employer does business with the US government. I've had to wear a mask every day since the start. In the beginning, I was required to carry papers to justify being out of the house. We were required to show shot records also.
Big hairy deal. I don't see why this is such drama for some people. I'm guessing these folks could never work in a clean room or a hospital or anywhere that required protective clothing of any kind.
Do you see how creating two classes of citizens is a "big hairy deal"?
My company is in the real world. They allow for folks who don't want to comply with vaccinations. Anti maskers can WFH.
Don't know or care to know what you're attempting to weaponize to what end. Happy holidays.
Don't know or care to know what you're attempting to weaponize to what end. Happy holidays.
HECUBUS said:
My semiconductor employer does business with the US government. I've had to wear a mask every day since the start. In the beginning, I was required to carry papers to justify being out of the house. We were required to show shot records also.
Big hairy deal. I don't see why this is such drama for some people. I'm guessing these folks could never work in a clean room or a hospital or anywhere that required protective clothing of any kind.
Where do you live that you were required to show papers to be out of the house? Who did you show them to?
I never had to show them, but the company provided the papers in case we needed them during the lock down. I kept electronic copies because it seemed so outrageous at the time.
I live in Austin. It was weird being one of a very few cars on the road and one of a very few essential workers allowed at work.
ChrisTAMU said:
Unfortunately, as you know, this stopped being about logic a long time ago. As noted by the fact that CDC cannot produce a single case of an individual getting Covid twice.
Doctors on here have seen it multiple times.
HECUBUS said:
I live in Austin. It was weird being one of a very few cars on the road and one of a very few essential workers allowed at work.
Lol. I am an ICU nurse. Traffic was down for quite some time but you didn't actually have to carry papers to be out of the house. No one in Texas was requiring that.
Mark Fairchild said:
I was extremely disturbed by your statement: "I will have to ignore my principles on this topic". I would ask you to deeply consider what this statement means to you. I cannot in any way try to move you on your axis, but please consider just exactly what this means on such a deep and personal plane. If, we move away from what we hold sacred in our own soul, what have we sacrificed. Please give this thought and prayer.
My reasoning was exactly how ORAggie explained following your comment here. I ended up submitting my vax status because of pressure by our VP of engineering pulling me into his office and dancing around the potential consequences without actually saying so. Had to submit because my values don't pay the bills. The company has backed off with covid policies recently and I'm pretty sure even the in-office mask policies will be going away within a month based on local and state trends.
After submitting my status, I felt physically sick. I caved on an issue that's important to me, so how can I claim to be for individual rights and the ideals that drove me to serve a long time ago. I felt like a fraud. Extreme resentment toward my employer and actively looking for another position, but at the same time I'm wondering if that would even matter. Many companies are on the ESG metric train, if not all so it would just be the same s*** elsewhere.
Regardless, if anyone is looking for a remote Señor Mechanical CAD Designer & Creo/Windchill expert and disabled veteran, I'm your guy :]
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