03_Aggie said:

---

Ag Natural said:

---

So all data and logic say this...

1. Being Vaxxed helps you not die from COVID.

2. Getting infected and recovering helps you not die from COVID, probably even moreso than just being vaxxed.

3. Getting infected, recovering and then still getting vaxxed provides the maximum protection.

4. We know almost 100% of deaths in Texas have been to the unvaxxed. I'd wager they were all not previously infected as well, but we can't track that.

Conclusion: Get vaxxed.

---

Not so sure we actually know #4. The article reports it that way but there appears to be a potential gap that isn't addressed.

---

I'm honestly not sure that we know 1, 3 or 4.

1. The vax has been around for about 6 mths. In that time the CDC & FDA have constantly moved the goal posts on the definition of a vax, expectations, etc... We are told that the vaxxed need to be protected from the unvaxxed which makes ABSOLUTELY NO sense if the vaccine does what they claim it would/should do. Frankly 6 mths really isn't enough time to truly study the impact of any medication.

3. I'm not a medical Dr but I'm not sure that this is how immunity works.

4. We don't know anything. It has been shown that various agencies have been manipulating the numbers throughout this entire process.

03_Aggie said:

---

Ag Natural said:

---

So all data and logic say this...

1. Being Vaxxed helps you not die from COVID.

2. Getting infected and recovering helps you not die from COVID, probably even moreso than just being vaxxed.

3. Getting infected, recovering and then still getting vaxxed provides the maximum protection.

4. We know almost 100% of deaths in Texas have been to the unvaxxed. I'd wager they were all not previously infected as well, but we can't track that.

Conclusion: Get vaxxed.

---

Not so sure we actually know #4. The article reports it that way but there appears to be a potential gap that isn't addressed.

---

Similar statistics have been reported from many outlets in many states. We've even had doctors on this forum giving anecdotal accounts of similar numbers. i.e. dozens of deaths, all non-vaxxed.

I still haven't heard a single logical argument against getting vaccination outside of "I'll take my chances".

03_Aggie said:

---

Ag Natural said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Ag Natural said:

---

So all data and logic say this...

1. Being Vaxxed helps you not die from COVID.

2. Getting infected and recovering helps you not die from COVID, probably even moreso than just being vaxxed.

3. Getting infected, recovering and then still getting vaxxed provides the maximum protection.

4. We know almost 100% of deaths in Texas have been to the unvaxxed. I'd wager they were all not previously infected as well, but we can't track that.

Conclusion: Get vaxxed.

---

Not so sure we actually know #4. The article reports it that way but there appears to be a potential gap that isn't addressed.

---

Similar statistics have been reported from many outlets in many states. We've even had doctors on this forum giving anecdotal accounts of similar numbers. i.e. dozens of deaths, all non-vaxxed.

I still haven't heard a single logical argument against getting vaccination outside of "I'll take my chances".

---

Doesn't change the fact there are potential data gaps that impact the accuracy.

As to the point of "I'll take my chances," there is a large contingency that use natural infection as a reason against needing vaccination. Not sure why that isn't a logical argument to you.

---

Again with the Natural Infection business. Sigh.

I think it's pretty clear that what he means when he says people say, "I'll take my chances" he's talking about people who have NOT ALREADY had covid. Hence they have NO natural immunity.

If someone has had covid they won't be saying "I'll take my chances."

They'll be saying "I've already had covid."

There's a big difference between the two.

03_Aggie said:

---

Ag Natural said:

---

03_Aggie said:

---

Ag Natural said:

---

So all data and logic say this...

1. Being Vaxxed helps you not die from COVID.

2. Getting infected and recovering helps you not die from COVID, probably even moreso than just being vaxxed.

3. Getting infected, recovering and then still getting vaxxed provides the maximum protection.

4. We know almost 100% of deaths in Texas have been to the unvaxxed. I'd wager they were all not previously infected as well, but we can't track that.

Conclusion: Get vaxxed.

---

Not so sure we actually know #4. The article reports it that way but there appears to be a potential gap that isn't addressed.

---

Similar statistics have been reported from many outlets in many states. We've even had doctors on this forum giving anecdotal accounts of similar numbers. i.e. dozens of deaths, all non-vaxxed.

I still haven't heard a single logical argument against getting vaccination outside of "I'll take my chances".

---

Doesn't change the fact there are potential data gaps that impact the accuracy.

As to the point of "I'll take my chances," there is a large contingency that use natural infection as a reason against needing vaccination. Not sure why that isn't a logical argument to you.

---

Well in the grand scheme of things you are unlikely to die from covid, less likely if you've been vaxxed, even less if you've had it already, and even less if you've had it AND bee n vaxxed.

Also, there is a near zero chance of dying from the vaccine.

So logically there is nothing but upside and no downside to getting vaccinated. Thats logic.

I've already survived covid. Why would I risk any kind of negative side effects from a vaccine that has less than a year of data behind it? Logcally, there is no way of knowing if the vaccine has any long term negative effects because the vaccine hasn't existed long enough to find out. So if there is no quantifiable benefit to getting the vaccine, why would I sign up for any unknown long term effects?

I think the odds of the vaccine giving me cancer or something in the next 5 or 10 years is very vary small. I also think the benefit I would get from the vaccine is very very small. It's a wash. But pretending like everyone absolutely must get the vaccine or they're being illogical is incorrect.

Tiny point of order, trials started in March of 2020 so we have over 18 months of data now, not to mention this vaccine technology has been around since like 2005, not to mention long term effects from a vaccine aren't really a thing, not to mention literally billions of people have gotten the shot by now.

Meanwhile 99% of the dead in the USA are unvaccinated. 680k or whatever it is now, more than the 1918 Spanish Flu.

Now back to the DEBATE.

Edit: and I don't see many people telling covid survivors on here that they should be forced to get the vaccine. I personally would encourage you to keep tabs on your antibody levels every few months if you don't want to get the shot.

ChemAg15 said:

---

But pretending like everyone absolutely must get the vaccine or they're being illogical is incorrect.

---

2 things make me immediately question the motives of extremist pro-vaccine comments.

1. Completely ignoring, discounting, and dismissing natural immunity.

2. I've made the following statement numerous times.

"I'm vaccinated and recommend you get vaccinated after a conversation with your doctor regarding your health."

I've had people argue with me about the "after a conversation with your doctor," and say that people should take it regardless of what a doctor says.


Those 2 takes give me a whole lotta pause.

PJYoung said:

---

Tiny point of order, trials started in March of 2020 so we have over 18 months of data now, not to mention this vaccine technology has been around since like 2005, not to mention long term effects from a vaccine aren't really a thing, not to mention literally billions of people have gotten the shot by now.

Meanwhile 99% of the dead in the USA are unvaccinated. 680k or whatever it is now, more than the 1918 Spanish Flu.

Now back to the DEBATE.

Edit: and I don't see many people telling covid survivors on here that they should be forced to get the vaccine. I personally would encourage you to keep tabs on your antibody levels every few months if you don't want to get the shot.

---

Tiny point of order. Covid has been around longer than the vaccine yet people still use "unknown long term effects" as a scare tactic. Not to mention that mRNA vaccines are not like previous vaccines so a lack of long term effects of traditional vaccines don't really apply to mRNA vaccines as they are the first of their kind. Meanwhile the data still supports older people or those with comorbidity still lead the charge in deaths. Even those that have received the vaccine.

planoaggie123 said:

---

agsalaska said:

---

Darwin is at work right now.

---

Explain? Is this a jab at unvaxxed?


edit...just realized i used "jab" and "unvaxxed" together....

---

Many vaxxed are seemingly gleeful at the thought of being able to spike the football over the deaths of the foolish unvaxxed slackjawed mouth breathers. It reeks of insecurity. Not sure what they would ever be insecure about...they are now perfectly safe. Just don't tell the family of my dad's friend who was fully vaccinated and passed from Covid. Or our other fully vaxxed family friend who spent about a month in the hospital (much of it in ICU) almost dying from Covid pneumonia, who looks like a completely different person now and may never be the same. BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE HAD THEY NOT GOTTEN VAXXED!!!

I don't trust the numbers...I couldn't care less if people think that makes me stupid. I think Delta or some other variant is actually hitting many vaccinated people pretty hard. I simply cannot trust our federal government or the CDC or WHO anymore. They have proven to be very manipulative, at best.

BillyFaucci! said:

---

It is hard to know what to believe on this topic!

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

---

I believe this article reads more like CNN propaganda than an actual credible source.

ChemAg15 said:

---

BillyFaucci! said:

---

It is hard to know what to believe on this topic!

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

---

I believe this article reads more like CNN propaganda than an actual credible source.

---

Its not an article. It's a blog post by an non-journalist organization with an obvious agenda.

As opposed to a journalist organization with an obvious agenda?

chjoak said:

---

Honestly, I don't believe those numbers. I have read claims on this board of people currently working in TX hospital systems that said...

1. Their was no place in their electronic system to track vax vs no-vax and across the hospital system there was no consistent way that anyone was tracking that data so it was impossible for this person's employer to accurately report said info to any agency.

2. The deaths of vaxxed patients were being coded as non-Covid related deaths (heart attach, pneumonia, stroke, etc...) while deaths of non-vaxxed were being coded as Covid.

---

Clinicians can definitely add that patients are vaccinated or unvaccinated to any patients chart.

#2 is absolutely a lie. A doctor treating a patient for COVID in a COVID unit is not going to change their cause of death to something other than COVID, when the patient was in there for COVID. Also, the reimbursement rate for an infectious disease-caused pneumonia is significantly higher than simple pneumonia not caused by a highly infectious disease.

Aston94 said:

---

aTm2004 said:

---

Come on. On this board vaccine = good, natural antibodies = ANTIVAXXER!!!!

---

That is just not true. You do appreciate that tracking those with natural immunity is much more difficult, right?

Knowing whether you have natural immunity from day to day is a tricky thing, and what your immunity levels are is difficult to determine as well. I don't think anyone thinks natural immunity isn't a thing, but it comes with lots of questions too.

The vaccine works.

---

Pfizer vaccines were initially reported to prevent upwards of 90%+ of infections, right? What's the latest number? I haven't checked recently. It sure does seem like the vaccines have waning strength against preventing infection. Some might even say that knowing whether "you have [vaccine] immunity from day to day is a tricky thing, and what your immunity levels are is difficult to determine as well." (Using your words). It seems that the vaccines do a good job protecting against severe disease. Has there been any study done as to whether COVID reinfections for people who already had a COVID infection and didn't get the vaccine show similar/better/worse mortality or severe case statistics? I haven't seen any, but I'd assume that most who survived COVID wouldn't have a worse case upon reinfection. Follow the science, right? The COVID vaccine produces antibodies that fight the disease, just the same as the body does when it successfully fights off the virus. The question is how quickly those antibodies diminish to a level that isn't (1) able to prevent reinfection, and (2) isn't able to fight off severe disease. We have data that shows the vaccines are starting to fail at (1) but are doing a good job at (2). I'd wager that natural antibodies are doing the same, if not better.

Look, I got the vaccine and had no qualms about it. But, in my eyes, people who contracted COVID have equal (if not greater) immunity.

ChemAg15 said:

---

Fair point. 18 months of data it is. My point remains, no way of knowing long term health effects. If there are any negative long term effects from the mRNA technology, I don't think we'd see them for several years.

Yea reasonable people don't think covid survivors need to be vaxxed. But a lot of those same people are fine with those unvaxxed becoming second class citizens who are getting fired from their jobs and having more and more restrictions placed on them.

The vaccine keeps you out of the hospital if you don't know how covid will hit you. The constant messaging that vax good unvax bad does not align with reality and it's pushing people that probably should get the vax away.

---

Based on what?

03_Aggie said:

---

As opposed to a journalist organization with an obvious agenda?

---

There are some journalist without an agenda, particularly if you avoid op-eds. However, this group is clearly has a vested interest in vaccines. It is plainly stated on the site that this organization, the so called "Nebraska Medicine" , has a mission.

"Nebraska Medicine and our research and education partner, the University of Nebraska Medical Center (UNMC), share the same mission: to lead the world in transforming lives to create a healthy future for all individuals and communities through premier educational programs, innovative research and extraordinary patient care."

It is all there shamelessly in black and white, this group of medical professions are only promoting vaccines because they view it as their mission to keep people from dying.

planoaggie123 said:

---

Aston94 said:

---

aTm2004 said:

---

Come on. On this board vaccine = good, natural antibodies = ANTIVAXXER!!!!

---

That is just not true. You do appreciate that tracking those with natural immunity is much more difficult, right?

Knowing whether you have natural immunity from day to day is a tricky thing, and what your immunity levels are is difficult to determine as well. I don't think anyone thinks natural immunity isn't a thing, but it comes with lots of questions too.

The vaccine works.

---

Is this the new headline? Vaccine > Natural.

Give me a break.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/israeli-study-did-find-natural-immunity-is-effective-in-fighting-covid-19-health-experts-recommend-vaccination/536-ff80f3d4-bb78-4eb3-8889-7eed73d4d9b6


A team of researchers from Israel studied 2.5 million charts of patients from one of Israel's largest health systems, Maccabi Healthcare Services. But it is important to note that the study has not yet been peer reviewed and should not be used to guide clinical practice.

The study found fully vaccinated individuals were at greater risk for COVID-19-related hospitalizations compared to those who were unvaccinated and previously infected. The study also found that people who received at least one dose of the Pfizer vaccine and had been previously infected were half as likely to be reinfected.

---

Where exactly did I say vaccine was better than natural immunity? I just said natural immunity is difficult to trace and can be hard to quantify. I didn't say it wasn't good, I am not here to argue either way on natural immunity, the point is the vaccine works.

ChemAg15 said:

---

Fitch said:

---

ChemAg15 said:

---

Fair point. 18 months of data it is. My point remains, no way of knowing long term health effects. If there are any negative long term effects from the mRNA technology, I don't think we'd see them for several years.

Yea reasonable people don't think covid survivors need to be vaxxed. But a lot of those same people are fine with those unvaxxed becoming second class citizens who are getting fired from their jobs and having more and more restrictions placed on them.

The vaccine keeps you out of the hospital if you don't know how covid will hit you. The constant messaging that vax good unvax bad does not align with reality and it's pushing people that probably should get the vax away.

---

Based on what?

---

Does anyone get complications after 3 years? After 5? How could we know since no one had had this in their system that long? It's new tech. Based on the fact that if someone were to have long term effects from the vaccine, we won't know until enough time has passed to realize there are long term effects.

---

Maybe it is possible, but there aren't negative long term effects to vaccines in general. The mRNA that is injected stays in your body for a couple days at most. mRNA is very fragile, which is why it is stored at extremely cold temps.

Creating problems for you 3 or 5 years down the road is unlikely, because everything injected to you has been out of your body for 3 to 5 years at that point. This mRNA vaccine and the contents are much more fragile than your typical flu, MMR, polio, etc vaccine and your body destroys it quickly.

chjoak said:

---

Honestly, I don't believe those numbers. I have read claims on this board of people currently working in TX hospital systems that said...

1. Their was no place in their electronic system to track vax vs no-vax and across the hospital system there was no consistent way that anyone was tracking that data so it was impossible for this person's employer to accurately report said info to any agency.

2. The deaths of vaxxed patients were being coded as non-Covid related deaths (heart attach, pneumonia, stroke, etc...) while deaths of non-vaxxed were being coded as Covid.

---

This is crazy facebook conspiracy talk. There's no motivation for the coders to do this. There's no upside to this. This is the epitome of unfounded, made up conspiracy talk. Just complete misinformation.

ChemAg15 said:

---

Yea it's unlikely. But it's also unknown. It's also unlikely that someone that got a mild case of covid and recovered is at any risk of a second severe case of covid. My original point is that there is no tangible benefit to getting a vaccine if you've already recovered from a mild case of covid.

---

As has been discussed multiple times, the strongest immunity is a hybrid from natural antibodies as well as from the vaccine.

Reinfection seems to often be worse than the original. This is obviously anecdotal, but a HS friend will be having to make the decision soon on whether to take her husband (mid 40s, active, healthy) off life support. He's been on a vent for 3 weeks and his lungs are getting better and his kidney function is slowing devolving.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2021/03/10/covid-19-reinfections-are-real-and-serious-all-the-more-reason-to-be-vaccinated/amp/

Further, most people with natural antibodies don't know what their actual antibodies levels are. The nba ran lots of tests and had seven reinfections last year. One reinfection had zero antibodies and another one had just trace antibodies. I'm guessing the average Texager doesn't really have the fitness level of those in the NBA data, but 2/7 reinfections head little to no natural protection. That's something that should be very concerning to anyone that refuses the vaccine and doesn't know their specific antibody levels.

planoaggie123 said:

---

I don't know if you have heard....all unvaccinated patients die with the last words "I wish I had been vaccinated"....that is how they are tracking....

---

I thought that was only the paid actors????

jenn96 said:

---

planoaggie123 said:

---

Fine but lets not say "natural immunity is not helping as much as it should"

If you have had COVID and have antibodies it works and it works better than the vaccine per Israel study.

The issue would be those who think they have natural antibodies but maybe never actually had COVID...

---

I suspect there are a lot of folks in that group. I completely agree that natural immunity is better than the vaccine. The issue is, millions of people don't have natural immunity because they never had the virus at all, or had such a mild case that they didn't develop durable antibodies. For those people, the vaccine is a far better option than hoping for a good outcome if they get Covid. All of the side effects of the vaccine are lesser than the side effects of actually having Covid, and if you are one of the unlucky ones who end up in the hospital with Covid pneumonia you now have likely long-term lung damage to go along with your natural immunity.

I totally get the teeth-gnashing frustration of those who have natural Covid antibodies - and don't want to get a vaccine they don't necessarily need - getting lumped in with anti-vaxxers who are trusting in Dr Google for their research.

---

This is where I stand. If you know you had COVID and have/had antibodies, rock on. Well, really everyone can rock on, I'm against mandates. But we all know people who have had the sniffles the last year+, never got tested, but claim they had COVID and it was a nothing burger. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. This is why I think most people should get vaccinated. If you weren't confirmed positive or didn't test for antibodies, you should get the vaccine, IMO. And as for we don't know long term side effects. I think I'm going to trust the doctor's over the twitter personalities on this one. Even the doctors on this board who are very anti-mandates, anti-vaccinating kids, etc. are pretty much all in on this vaccine and state there is basically no risk of long term side effects from an overly "rushed" vaccine.