Pfizer Pill vs Ivermectin

5,827 Views | 55 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Duncan Idaho
samurai_science
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Duncan Idaho said:

Big one I know of right now is that Pfizer isn't known to cause male fertility issues in multiple species ranging from mosquitoes to rats to humans. Granted that might change with time.

Mosquitoes
https://malariajournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12936-019-2988-3

Rats
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21783912/

People
https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary.com/abstract/effects-of-ivermectin-therapy-on-the-sperm-functions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients-12867.html

https://www.newsweek.com/debunked-ivermectin-sterility-study-only-had-sample-size-37-people-1627716



Debunked Ivermectin Sterility Study



https://sti.bmj.com/content/80/1/12

Dr. Vladimir (Zev) Zelenko - "The newest garbage on ivermectin is that a medication used billions of times is being blamed for reduction of sperm count in patients with river blindness from a Nigerian study from 2011.

Oh really, perhaps it is the parasitic disease that damage the scrotum of affected patients."

The Dr had posted the photos of the subjects testicles, clearly not normal and ravaged by the parasites.....but they are bad looking. Feel free to seek out the photos yourself.....
Zobel
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AG
Zelenko? The dude who thought he was curing people with HCQ?

The point about the small study is fine. We should also apply that same scrutiny to the ivermectin studies.
OldArmyBrent
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AG
Duncan Idaho said:

Big one I know of right now is that Pfizer isn't known to cause male fertility issues in multiple species ranging from mosquitoes to rats to humans. Granted that might change with time.

Mosquitoes
https://malariajournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12936-019-2988-3

Rats
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21783912/

People
https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary.com/abstract/effects-of-ivermectin-therapy-on-the-sperm-functions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients-12867.html

Well this is awkward.
samurai_science
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Zobel said:

Zelenko? The dude who thought he was curing people with HCQ?

The point about the small study is fine. We should also apply that same scrutiny to the ivermectin studies.
LOL, nice try, he just posted photos of the the testicles of the subjects of that study and linked to a study about parasites causing fertility issues.


samurai_science
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"The infertility claim spread quickly due to Ivermectin increasingly being used by some as an unapproved, and likely ineffective, treatment for COVID-19. The 85 percent figure did not come from the Nigerian study itself, but rather from a different study that it references, although no record of the study could be found in the journal cited. The Nigerian study, which was conducted without a control group, also tested the drug's possible effects on male fertility."

Zobel
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AG
What does that have to do with anything?

If you're going to make claims on scant evidence like "I have 100% cure rate with HCQ" what grounds do you have rejecting scant evidence like "ivermectin causes sperm issues"?

The point is it's all a big mess, and he's a part of it.
OldArmyBrent
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AG
You're sort of arguing against yourself here. You're saying not enough evidence for the contrary to your original premise and the saying no one can make that same argument against your point.
Zobel
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AG
Yes. Yes! freaking exactly. Lesson here is don't take any particular study seriously! And be hyper skeptical about results, especially from small studies, especially from studies you're inclined to agree with!

When lots of studies, and big ones, point in the same direction you can feel more confident. Like how we know HCQ doesn't work now.
OldArmyBrent
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AG
I always forget how this is just a self fulfilling prophecy board of sorts. It's like someone decided to illustrate hindsight bias, selection bias, and survivorship bias all at once. This is the simulation they came up with.
CondensedFogAggie
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OldArmyBrent said:

I always forget how this is just a self fulfilling prophecy board of sorts. It's like someone decided to illustrate hindsight bias, selection bias, and survivorship bias all at once. This is the simulation they came up with.

Been like that for years, especially on f16, people make up their minds first then make **** up to support it. Especially with twitter. Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, Clinton is a email leaking pedophile globalist uranium seller operating out of a DC pizza shop, Biden and xi are lovers, we fought battles in germany to get watermarked dominion servers

And now we're on to perhaps the dumbest one yet where horse dewormer will cure covid. Odd and tragic people will actually harm themselves to prove something.
Duncan Idaho
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OldArmyBrent said:

Duncan Idaho said:

Big one I know of right now is that Pfizer isn't known to cause male fertility issues in multiple species ranging from mosquitoes to rats to humans. Granted that might change with time.

Mosquitoes
https://malariajournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12936-019-2988-3

Rats
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21783912/

People
https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary.com/abstract/effects-of-ivermectin-therapy-on-the-sperm-functions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients-12867.html

Well this is awkward.


The only thing awkward about this is how hard you guys are working to defend preferring using a miracle cure with no evidence that it works vs a proven vaccine.

The fact that you think debunking a study that ivermectin causes fertility issues somehow makes you more correct is telling.

I guess I should just take a page out of the HCQ/Ivermectin crowd's playbook and say "sure this study wasn't good but 1) the rebuttal doesn't show that it DOESN'T impact male fertility, just that these people already had fertility issues...there was clearly an issue with the timing of the trails 2)what about the rat and mosquito studies"
OldArmyBrent
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AG
Who is "you guys"? Why do you have to create a boogeyman that you can argue against? A poster added a link to contradictory information and the people like you who have developed a whole identity around being an amateur internet scientist on a sports message board lose their **** trying to attack the character or intelligence of everyone with whom you disagree. Got news for you - that kind of argument just makes you look like you don't even trust your own conclusions.
BurnetAggie99
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Duncan Idaho said:

Big one I know of right now is that Pfizer isn't known to cause male fertility issues in multiple species ranging from mosquitoes to rats to humans. Granted that might change with time.

Mosquitoes
https://malariajournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12936-019-2988-3

Rats
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21783912/

People
https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary.com/abstract/effects-of-ivermectin-therapy-on-the-sperm-functions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients-12867.html
This has been debunked the whole attack on male fertility. It's not true.

"Viral claims that the drug Ivermectin causes infertility in 85 percent of men were based on the questionable conclusions of a 2011 study that included only 37 subjects. Recent news articles and memes made the infertility claim based on a 2011 study conducted in Nigeria.

The study focused on Ivermectin as a treatment for river blindness, a parasitic infection endemic to Africa and one of the conditions that the drug is approved to treat in humans. However, infertility is not a known side effect of Ivermectin, according to the Food and Drug Administration. The infertility claim spread quickly due to Ivermectin increasingly being used by some as an unapproved, and likely ineffective, treatment for COVID-19. The 85 percent figure did not come from the Nigerian study itself, but rather from a different study that it references, although no record of the study could be found in the journal cited. The Nigerian study, which was conducted without a control group, also tested the drug's possible effects on male fertility.

There is little reason to believe that Ivermectin causes infertility in people. The Nigerian study was conducted on a small number of subjects, and questions have been raised over the methodology of the study and the peer-review process of the journal it was published in."



https://www.newsweek.com/debunked-ivermectin-sterility-study-only-had-sample-size-37-people-1627716
Mathguy64
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AG
An whole lot of sarcasm when right over a lot of heads.
Zobel
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AG
This is so meta.

My comment toward Zelenko is the extreme irony or hypocrisy of being upset about a published study from ten years ago having a small sample size and no control group when he personally gained celebrity status for treating people with HCQ and claiming it was a miracle cure...with a small sample size and no control group.

Especially ironic considering that we have high quality evidence now that he was doing absolutely nothing for those people by giving them HCQ.
BurnetAggie99
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Zobel said:

This is so meta.

My comment toward Zelenko is the extreme irony or hypocrisy of being upset about a published study from ten years ago having a small sample size and no control group when he personally gained celebrity status for treating people with HCQ and claiming it was a miracle cure...with a small sample size and no control group.

Especially ironic considering that we have high quality evidence now that he was doing absolutely nothing for those people by giving them HCQ.
You need to look at some of Dr. Peter McCullough and other doctors research on Covid. He talks how all treatment option trials were stopped to push the vaccine. There is no home treatment guideline for doctors by the CDC/FDA/White House. Basically test positive the go home for two weeks with nothing prescribed and if you get to sick then go to the hospital and then they may try do something for you. So now there is a researched backed Covid Home treatment guideline.

https://aapsonline.org/CovidPatientTreatmentGuide.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7410805/

Zobel
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AG
I saw your other thread on it. It's recommending HCQ + azithromycin still. That combo has clinical data that suggest it increases patient mortality vs do nothing.
BurnetAggie99
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Also the American Journal of Medicine supports the guidelines laid forth in the Covid Home Treatment Guidelines.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(20)30673-2/fulltext

Combination mix of anti-viral medicines with Monoclonal antibody therapy started as soon as symptoms occur. Medicines to decrease inflammation, such as corticosteroids (called immunomodulators). Anticoagulant therapy to prevent blood-clots that can cause strokes, heart attacks, kidney shut-down, and death. Non-prescription supportive treatments with zinc, vitamin D, vitamin C, electrolyte drinks. Home-based oxygen support, such as with an oxygen concentrator.

Antiviral Agents: These must be started quickly at STAGE 1 (Days 1-5): Symptoms include sore throat, nasal stuffiness, fatigue, headaches, body aches, loss of taste and/or smell, loss of appetite, nausea, diarrhea, fever. These medicines stop the virus from (1) entering the cells and (2) from multiplying once inside the cells, and they reduce bacterial invasion in the sinuses and lung:
*Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) with azithromycin (AZM) or doxycycline OR Ivermectin with azithromycin (AZM) or Doxycycline. Either combination above must also include zinc sulfate or gluconate, plus supplemental vitamin D, vitamin C & B complex. Monoclonal antibody therapy (tocilizumab) should also be started in stage 1.

Anti-inflammatory Agents - Corticosteroids ("steroids"): Oral and Nebulized. These are started at STAGE 2 (Days 3-14) to reduce inflammation, the cause of added damage to the lungs and critical organs. Symptoms include worsening cough, difficulty breathing, chest heaviness/tightness or chest pain. As inflammation damages the airways interfering with normal oxygen-carbon dioxide exchange, blood oxygen levels drop and people experience loss of focus, drowsiness, confusion, difficulty concentrating, low energy and severe fatigue. The exaggerated Inflammation response in COVID further increases the risk of blood clots.

Prescription medicines and other support added now to Stage I medicines are:
nebulized budesonide to help penetrate the lungs and reduce inflammation, oral prednisone, methylprednisolone, dexamethasone, colchicine may also be added to reduce inflammation, full strength adult aspirin 325 mg to reduce inflammation and risk of blood clots, home oxygen concentrator may be needed to improve oxygen levels.

Stage 3 Prescription Anticoagulants ("blood thinners"): STAGE III (Day 7 and beyond): Symptoms seen in Stage II intensify. Difficulty breathing becomes extreme, oxygen levels drop sharply, risk of heart attack or stroke increases. At this point, people are critically ill. The medicines to be added to Stage 1 and 2 medicines now include:
Aspirin 325 mg unless told not to take by your doctors And/or low molecular weight heparin injections (e.g. enoxaparin [Lovenox]) OR apixaban (Eliquis), or rivaroxaban (Xarelto), or dabigatran (Pradaxa) or Edoxaban (Savaysa) in standard doses for 5 to 30 days If these added steps do not lead to improvement, or the patient becomes unstable, a 911 call is warranted for ER evaluation and hospital admission so that more aggressive IV medications (such as Remdesivir, Regeneron, and others) should be considered, and more intensive ventilation regimens are possible in ICU settings.

Stage 4 Vitamins, Supplements, and Oxygen. Zinc sulfate, gluconate or citrate. These forms are available in pharmacies, health food stores, and sold online. Zinc sulfate 220 mg provides 50 mg elemental zinc, the recommended anti-viral dose. Zinc in the form of zinc picolinate form is not recommended following reports of liver damage and tumors from studies about 20 years ago. Following these reports, the German Commission that regulates supplements used in medical practice in Germany banned this form of zinc. Vitamin D3, preferable in oil in capsules for better absorption. Recommended doses for anti-viral benefit vary from 5000 IU or more for 5-30 days Vitamin C with bioflavonoids for antioxidant, anti-inflammatory effects. Dose recommendations from our contributors vary from 1000 mg (1 gram) once or twice a day up to 4 or more times a day. Vitamin C IV drips are also a option as well.
Zobel
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AG
That's from January, and it's the same guy as first author. So, no, you should not follow this treatment guideline as HCQ+azithromycin is not effective treatment and can actually worsen outcomes.
A is A
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AG
Duncan Idaho said:

OldArmyBrent said:

Duncan Idaho said:

Big one I know of right now is that Pfizer isn't known to cause male fertility issues in multiple species ranging from mosquitoes to rats to humans. Granted that might change with time.

Mosquitoes
https://malariajournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12936-019-2988-3

Rats
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21783912/

People
https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary.com/abstract/effects-of-ivermectin-therapy-on-the-sperm-functions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients-12867.html

Well this is awkward.


The only thing awkward about this is how hard you guys are working to defend preferring using a miracle cure with no evidence that it works vs a proven vaccine.
except there our countless people who have come down with symptoms and then, after taking IVM, have diminished or eradicated all symptoms of covid. But this board continuously discounts it as "anecdotal". There have been more poeple on this site claim that IVM aided in the abatement of covid symptoms than are in your stupid 37 person survey with unhealthy individuals.

You are no better than anti-vaxxers.
Zobel
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AG
This is literally the case for blinded, placebo controlled studies.

The vast majority of people who come down with symptoms will have diminished or eradicate all symptoms within a short period of time whether you give them ivermectin or sugar pills. This is just fact. The difficult question is what's the difference between giving ivermectin and giving sugar pills.
Duncan Idaho
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A is A said:

Duncan Idaho said:

OldArmyBrent said:

Duncan Idaho said:

Big one I know of right now is that Pfizer isn't known to cause male fertility issues in multiple species ranging from mosquitoes to rats to humans. Granted that might change with time.

Mosquitoes
https://malariajournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12936-019-2988-3

Rats
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21783912/

People
https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary.com/abstract/effects-of-ivermectin-therapy-on-the-sperm-functions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients-12867.html

Well this is awkward.


The only thing awkward about this is how hard you guys are working to defend preferring using a miracle cure with no evidence that it works vs a proven vaccine.
except there our countless people who have come down with symptoms and then, after taking IVM, have diminished or eradicated all symptoms of covid. But this board continuously discounts it as "anecdotal". There have been more poeple on this site claim that IVM aided in the abatement of covid symptoms than are in your stupid 37 person survey with unhealthy individuals.

You are no better than anti-vaxxers.



99% of people that get treated with Ivermectin early enough will survive a virus with a *checks notes* 99% survival rate. Ergo ivermectin saves lives.

Again, not sure if serious.
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