Fitch said:

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GAC06 said:

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"School with masks is better than no school at all"

That's a false choice. There is no reason for kids to wear masks. It is harmful for their development and only bolsters the petty tyrants who will use fear and misinformation to still cancel school and activities.

---

I have no dog in this hunt but have never understood the idea that masks harm kids development or psychological health. My nieces and nephews don't like wearing clothes period, so a mask is just another garment where mom says "put your _____ back on!"

Total separate discussion from the efficacy of the things.

---

When kids are scared straight b/c of a virus and forced to wear a mask....they don't interact the same.

It is not another garment and you know that. Please do not tell me you would gladly wear a mask every day you put on pants / shirts for the rest of your years on earth. Having something covering your mouth is WAY different. It is where you breath and it also a significant part of the communication process.

Why on earth cover your mouth / face with no science behind it?

As a similar argument...would you wear latex gloves the rest of your life if someone said to but couldn't explain why?

dodger02 said:

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Both of my girls wore masks all last year and their lives were destroyed so badly that they had their best academic year ever - one scoring off the charts in every assessment conducted and the other making the largest year-to-year improvement in her academic performance to date.

I hope this year is just as devastating.

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Great force your kids to wear them. Mine hate them and fully realize how useless they are. Fortunately my school district is allowing for masking to be up to the parents / students.

GE said:

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The moral weakness in a society that handicaps its children to protect its elderly is alarming.

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Yup. These same people would be pushing kids to the back of the lifeboat line.

BusterAg said:

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1) COVID is not a significant threat to the health of your kids. To date, 354 kids under the age of 17 have died "from" COVID.[1] Of those kids, most are likely to have other major complications, including things like leukemia. In a study by the UK, they estimated that 25 out of 12 million kids without any major complications died from COVID.[2] They didn't control for obesity, however. COVID is less dangerous to your kids than:

a) RSV, which hospitalizes 60,000 people per year, and kills between 100 - 500 children under 5 every year.[3]

b) Regular influenza during a regular year - The CDC estimates that the 2019 - 2020 flu deaths in children were ~434. That's in one year, compared to 18 months[4]

c) Cancer - Cancer sucks. It kills twice as many kids per year than COVID. I know its not communicable (with some possible exceptions), but it's still a bigger killer of your kids than COVID.[5]

d) Suicide - kills about 2,000 kids per year. Contemplate that when you are thinking about these lockdowns and mental health.[6]

2) You know how many kids have died from the flu during the COVID time? One. [7] Something about COVID wiped out the flu, or at least that is what the data says. So, prior years, flu, but no COVID. COVID year, COVID but no flu. The difference in the dangers to your kids from flu compared to COVID are not statistically meaningful. This means that kids face no more danger from communicable diseases this year than they have in every other year since we wiped out polio.

3) Your kids wearing masks will do nothing to help anyone. They aren't going to use them properly. They aren't going to make themselves safer from a non-dangerous virus. They aren't going to prevent the spread of the disease, because they touch their mouths constantly.[8] Even if masks do help with the spread of COVID, it's not worth mandating kids wear masks during a normal flu year. The call for masks on kids is propaganda related to political power.

4) Anyone that makes a plea to protect our kids from COVID is either uninformed or lying to you. Educate them on the low mortality rate, based on CDC data, and then assume they have bad intentions if that doesn't shock them.

5) The damage that we are doing to our kids by robbing them of their education is FAR AND AWAY more damaging than the minute chance that some kids will get sick. Kids, by and large, aren't learning *****[8] If you have highschool age kids right now, keep them learning. Because, once they get to college, they are going to be the ones blowing the curve in every class they take.

6) While we don't have good data to support this, kids might be spreading COVID to parents / teachers. That's a valid point. That is worth discussion. There are pros / cons to each side, like the presence of a vaccine, for example. But that argument is separate and distinct from arguments that something is to "protect the children". No, it's not. It's destroying our kids lives for the sake of keeping adults safe. We have already pretty much destroyed their adulthoods with the crushing debts we are creating to make elites rich, why not at least let them have a few more years of innocense before they realize how ****ed they are.

Endnotes:

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57766717

[3] https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/2021/han00443.asp#:~:text=Each%20year%20in%20the%20United,aged%2065%20years%20or%20older.

[4] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2020-2021/pediatric-flu-deaths-reach-new-high.htm#:~:text=June%204%2C%202021%20%E2%80%93%20CDC%20reported,for%20that%20season%20to%20199.

[5] https://www.americashealthrankings.org/explore/health-of-women-and-children/measure/child_mortality_a/state/U.S. (9% * 20,337 = 1,830)

[6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK220806/table/ttt00010/?report=objectonly - Note, this data is dated, back from 1999. That is because, in recent years, suicide deaths by age included a big group of between 15 to 24. However, suicide rates have done nothing but increase since 1999. More discussion about pandemic and suicide here: https://healthfeedback.org/what-has-been-the-effect-of-the-pandemic-on-the-suicide-rate-of-the-u-s-population/

[7] CDC deaths, pediatric from flu

[8] Primary research, namely my high school teacher wife and high school kids.

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Hell yes!

This is my biggest issue with the mask mandates and remote learning for children

Marissa99 said:

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I hear your points, Buster.

But something else to consider -- there is still a lot that we don't know about this particular coronavirus. I really hope that there are no lingering issues from Covid that will present themselves several years from now in kids and adults. Yes, long Covid does exist. I believe this. But there is still a lot that we don't know.

On a broader note, mankind is resilient and has navigated and adapted to many adverse situations over thousands of years. One way I look at this pandemic - as unfortunate as it is - is that it's another time that we have to adapt and weather through adversity. We need to adapt to some things such as wearing masks and other safety protocols for the time being. I think many people think that mask wearing and other measures are permanent. They're not. Change is the one constant in life....

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1) Masks don't work. Especially when not used correctly. Kids do not use masks correctly.

2) Why masks now, and not in 2019, when the flu killed 434 kids?

3) Weathering adversity makes sense. I was kinda OK with the initial shutdowns, when we didn't know very much about this virus. We know a lot now. We know that kids are not in danger. We know that masks don't work. We are NOT adapting to new information about this virus, we are clinging to the fear of the unknown, when it is actually not really an unknown (hat tip to Rummy).

gunan01 said:

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Wearing masks to schools is "destroying kids lives"???

Lol

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As a parent of a 1st grader and pre k-er, yes, wearing a mask, social distance measures and everything else definitely is harmful to our kids.

These kids are not yet capable of great discernment. They need facial cues to help interpret things. Masks make that impossible.

It also adds undue stress to an already stressful thing. It creates strife where there should be none.

And to what benefit? Masks don't provide any substantial protection.

Maybe Covid doesn't affect children, but all the Child ICU beds in North Texas are taken, so we're going to try to reduce the risk as best we can.

planoaggie123 said:

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Fitch said:

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GAC06 said:

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"School with masks is better than no school at all"

That's a false choice. There is no reason for kids to wear masks. It is harmful for their development and only bolsters the petty tyrants who will use fear and misinformation to still cancel school and activities.

---

I have no dog in this hunt but have never understood the idea that masks harm kids development or psychological health. My nieces and nephews don't like wearing clothes period, so a mask is just another garment where mom says "put your _____ back on!"

Total separate discussion from the efficacy of the things.

---

When kids are scared straight b/c of a virus and forced to wear a mask....they don't interact the same.

It is not another garment and you know that. Please do not tell me you would gladly wear a mask every day you put on pants / shirts for the rest of your years on earth. Having something covering your mouth is WAY different. It is where you breath and it also a significant part of the communication process.

Why on earth cover your mouth / face with no science behind it?

As a similar argument...would you wear latex gloves the rest of your life if someone said to but couldn't explain why?

---

I have no emotional reaction to them as some of y'all do. It's a piece of cloth or paper. I don't like them but don't get upset by something so innocuous. Same for wearing a bright yellow safety vest when there's no construction, same for wearing a name badge in an office.

As I say, I have no dog in this hunt, but in the last year and half of this BS I have yet to see any little kids or teenagers go into a depression over masks. There again, no one in my family is prone to sweating stupid ****, so maybe I'm just privileged as the kids say.

dodger02 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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There is math and science behind the reason cloth does not work to filter out a small virus cell.

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The math and science is that surgical masks and the like aren't designed to "filter out a small virus cell" that is approximately 100 nm in diameter (a cell that in and of itself won't make anyone sick). They're designed to filter droplets several times that size which contain hundreds of virus cells.

The "masks don't work" crew is letting perfection be the enemy of good.

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Cloth/surgical mask don't work for covi. Period. There is no perfection nor any statistical benefit to a cloth or surgical mask regarding covid.

dodger02 said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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There is math and science behind the reason cloth does not work to filter out a small virus cell.

---

The math and science is that surgical masks and the like aren't designed to "filter out a small virus cell" that is approximately 100 nm in diameter (a cell that in and of itself won't make anyone sick). They're designed to filter droplets several times that size which contain hundreds of virus cells.

The "masks don't work" crew is letting perfection be the enemy of good.

---

What about the droplets that get stuck in the mask? When you breath out, do those droplets aerosol into smaller mist, and get expelled from the mask? Many doctors think that this is very likely, and that masks actually do more harm than good. The majority of peer reviewed studies of masks say they don't work. The NYT came out with an article yesterday in defense of masks, and many rational people in part of the debate are calling it an opinion piece, because it cited zero data or support.

But, that is beside the point. There are no good reasons to force kids to wear masks. This disease IS NOT dangerous to them.

The CDC has reported 618,000 COVID deaths in the US, and less than 360 of those were kids under the age of 18.

ORAggieFan said:

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Fitch said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

"School with masks is better than no school at all"

That's a false choice. There is no reason for kids to wear masks. It is harmful for their development and only bolsters the petty tyrants who will use fear and misinformation to still cancel school and activities.

---

I have no dog in this hunt but have never understood the idea that masks harm kids development or psychological health. My nieces and nephews don't like wearing clothes period, so a mask is just another garment where mom says "put your _____ back on!"

Total separate discussion from the efficacy of the things.

---

Learn more about non verbal communications. Also, look into how kids learn to enunciate and read (by seeing lips). Or, research kids with speech issues and how speech therapy works.

There are many reasons to not mask children and this will have long term effects, especially on kids under 10.

---

I will admit, masks drive me crazy.

I am slightly hearing impaired, and stare at people's mouths when they talk. Unless the room we are in is very quiet, I can't understand you unless I can see your mouth. Any background noise at all is very bothersome.

It's gotten so bad that my kids started acting as interpreters for me with restaurant hostesses and such, yelling at me, repeating what was just said.

Usually people without kids refrain from commenting about what's good for child rearing and development. Being that they have no idea what they're talking about.

But you, you, certainly take a different approach.

Fitch said:

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planoaggie123 said:

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When kids are scared straight b/c of a virus and forced to wear a mask....they don't interact the same.

It is not another garment and you know that. Please do not tell me you would gladly wear a mask every day you put on pants / shirts for the rest of your years on earth. Having something covering your mouth is WAY different. It is where you breath and it also a significant part of the communication process.

Why on earth cover your mouth / face with no science behind it?

As a similar argument...would you wear latex gloves the rest of your life if someone said to but couldn't explain why?

---

I have no emotional reaction to them as some of y'all do. It's a piece of cloth or paper. I don't like them but don't get upset by something so innocuous. Same for wearing a bright yellow safety vest when there's no construction, same for wearing a name badge in an office.

As I say, I have no dog in this hunt, but in the last year and half of this BS I have yet to see any little kids or teenagers go into a depression over masks. There again, no one in my family is prone to sweating stupid ****, so maybe I'm just privileged as the kids say.

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Not emotional. Actually its very much the opposite. Show me the science of why and I will go for it. There has been MILLIONS in $$$ sent to the CDC / NIH and they have refused to release a study related to masks from the Gap or Forever 21 and their ability to stop the virus. I wish they would study.

If you would gladly wear a diaper on the outside of your pants (its just a piece of cloth) or wear latex gloves all day if someone asked you to then I praise you for your willingness to go along with the flow.

I just like to think "hmmm...does this make sense" while you don't and that is 100% ok.

Fitch said:

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planoaggie123 said:

---

Fitch said:

---

GAC06 said:

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O"School with masks is better than no school at all"

That's a false choice. There is no reason for kids to wear masks. It is harmful for their development and only bolsters the petty tyrants who will use fear and misinformation to still cancel school and activities.

---

I have no dog in this hunt but have never understood the idea that masks harm kids development or psychological health. My nieces and nephews don't like wearing clothes period, so a mask is just another garment where mom says "put your _____ back on!"

Total separate discussion from the efficacy of the things.

---

When kids are scared straight b/c of a virus and forced to wear a mask....they don't interact the same.

It is not another garment and you know that. Please do not tell me you would gladly wear a mask every day you put on pants / shirts for the rest of your years on earth. Having something covering your mouth is WAY different. It is where you breath and it also a significant part of the communication process.

Why on earth cover your mouth / face with no science behind it?

As a similar argument...would you wear latex gloves the rest of your life if someone said to but couldn't explain why?

---

I have no emotional reaction to them as some of y'all do. It's a piece of cloth or paper. I don't like them but don't get upset by something so innocuous. Same for wearing a bright yellow safety vest when there's no construction, same for wearing a name badge in an office.

As I say, I have no dog in this hunt, but in the last year and half of this BS I have yet to see any little kids or teenagers go into a depression over masks. There again, no one in my family is prone to sweating stupid ****, so maybe I'm just privileged as the kids say.

---

Obviously you must have a dog in this hunt if you are comparing a mask to a yellow safety vest.

There have been plenty of things pointed out in this thread, some even before you posted your first question.

Depending on the age, language development.
Facial clues
Muffled speech from teachers and others. Hard to communicate.
Fogging glasses - kids will choose to just keep their glasses off so that they can follow the rules of mask wearing. Headaches, not reading, etc.

Again it's fine that they don't bother you, I assume you're an adult. We're talking about kids in schools. There are plenty of drawbacks to kids wearing masks, especially the younger ones.

So when you ask a question and get plenty of good answers and then respond back with it's the "same for wearing a bright yellow safety vest" and call kids that have issues with masks not able to sweat stupid **** then you are not really interested in a conversation.

Ol_Ag_02 said:

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Usually people without kids refrain from commenting about what's good for child rearing and development. Being that they have no idea what they're talking about.

But you, you, certainly take a different approach.

---

Just chatting amongst adults here. No worse than them old ladies at the hairdresser prognosticating on the way of the world and such.

Thomas Ford 91 said:

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Maybe Covid doesn't affect children, but all the Child ICU beds in North Texas are taken, so we're going to try to reduce the risk as best we can.

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Just for some data, here are hospitalization rates of COVID for kids versus grown-ups.



https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_3.html

Thomas Ford 91 said:

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Maybe Covid doesn't affect children, but all the Child ICU beds in North Texas are taken, so we're going to try to reduce the risk as best we can.

---

Well, mask won't do that.

Fair enough. But when you're talking about people's kids and insinuating that masks are no big deal for kids who simply just don't sweat the small ****, you're gonna get a lot of angry responses.

What about kids with learning disabilities, anxiety concerns, kids on the autism spectrum, kids with sensory sensitivity, on could keep going on and on.

As a child with one of the above, we work with her daily on better interactions with people she doesn't know and situations she's uncomfortable in. It's been a long grind, years and years and wondering why your kid is so much harder to parent than the others.

Masks make daily life for my child harder, period, end of story. Not having to wear one since last May in school has down wonders for her emotional health and development.

I'm not asking for help from anyone else. All I'm asking is to not force me to parent the way some of you think I should. I know what's best for my kid. And not wearing a mask is best for my kid. Do whatever the hell you want with your kids. Live mine the hell alone.

Marissa99 said:

---

I hear your points, Buster.

But something else to consider -- there is still a lot that we don't know about this particular coronavirus. I really hope that there are no lingering issues from Covid that will present themselves several years from now in kids and adults. Yes, long Covid does exist. I believe this. But there is still a lot that we don't know.

On a broader note, mankind is resilient and has navigated and adapted to many adverse situations over thousands of years. One way I look at this pandemic - as unfortunate as it is - is that it's another time that we have to adapt and weather through adversity. We need to adapt to some things such as wearing masks and other safety protocols for the time being. I think many people think that mask wearing and other measures are permanent. They're not. Change is the one constant in life....

---

You've convinced yourself somehow that this virus is a bigger deal than it actually is and then justify mitigation measure bc we are supposedly resilient and can adapt.

It has shown more so how gullible we are and how greedy government is. Questioning how things are done and pragmatism is now out the window. Is there any actual discussion on how the next pandemic should be handled?

As a father with a daughter in kindergarten now, I struggle to see how requiring them to wear a mask does anything other than hurt their ability to interact and engage with other kids (and their teacher) - maybe it would be neutral at best, but there is no way in hell I would ever support her wearing that over her face.

Also, the OP brings in common freaking sense into the equation. Young kids especially will bungle the whole process because they are KIDS. There is absolutely zero benefit to that requirement and in fact, could actually make it worse.

Thomas Ford 91 said:

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Maybe Covid doesn't affect children, but all the Child ICU beds in North Texas are taken, so we're going to try to reduce the risk as best we can.

---

This is likely due to RSV hitting hard out of season.

Let's see what the CDC says to prevent RSV spread:

• Avoid close contact with sick people
• Wash their hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds
• Avoid touching their face with unwashed hands
• Limit the time they spend in child-care centers or other potentially contagious settings, especially during fall, winter, and spring. This may help prevent infection and spread of the virus during the RSV season

Interesting- no masking mentioned. Because it does not work.


Preventing RSV (Respiratory Syncytial Virus) | CDC

I remember spending Xmas+3 days in the hospital with my 6 month old at the time with RSV.

That had her in an oxygen tent, and she didn't like it at first, but calmed down after enough peek-a-boo.

The nurse asked why she was in the hospital, and I told him RSV. He must have been new, because he had never heard of it. He took readings, etc, washed up and left.

Next day, he enters the room wearing latex gloves and a surgical gown. Told us he had a newborn at home. He was obviously scared. My wife suggested asking if he could trade with someone else. New nurse the next day.

KidDoc said:

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Thomas Ford 91 said:

---

Maybe Covid doesn't affect children, but all the Child ICU beds in North Texas are taken, so we're going to try to reduce the risk as best we can.

---

This is likely due to RSV hitting hard out of season.

Let's see what the CDC says to prevent RSV spread:

• Avoid close contact with sick people
• Wash their hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds
• Avoid touching their face with unwashed hands
• Limit the time they spend in child-care centers or other potentially contagious settings, especially during fall, winter, and spring. This may help prevent infection and spread of the virus during the RSV season

Interesting- no masking mentioned. Because it does not work.


Preventing RSV (Respiratory Syncytial Virus) | CDC

---

I think in general the CDC doesn't want to recommend masks for something truly endemic, not because masks don't "work". I think that's a loaded phrase because again, on a macro scale they might work in slightly decreasing Rt from a bigger exponential to a smaller one. But I don't think they stop most or all transmissions.

For what it's worth, I'm against masks in schools now that at risk populations have had access to quality vaccines. It's an important part of accepting that COVID is endemic, like RSV.

Thomas Ford 91 said:

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Maybe Covid doesn't affect children, but all the Child ICU beds in North Texas are taken, so we're going to try to reduce the risk as best we can.

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They are full every single winter. I have worked my ass off for years to make beds when there weren't any. Stop using this as a reason to force restrictions on people.

P.U.T.U said:

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Marissa99 said:

---

I hear your points, Buster.

But something else to consider -- there is still a lot that we don't know about this particular coronavirus. I really hope that there are no lingering issues from Covid that will present themselves several years from now in kids and adults. Yes, long Covid does exist. I believe this. But there is still a lot that we don't know.

On a broader note, mankind is resilient and has navigated and adapted to many adverse situations over thousands of years. One way I look at this pandemic - as unfortunate as it is - is that it's another time that we have to adapt and weather through adversity. We need to adapt to some things such as wearing masks and other safety protocols for the time being. I think many people think that mask wearing and other measures are permanent. They're not. Change is the one constant in life....

---

There is math and science behind the reason cloth does not work to filter out a small virus cell. We do know that, masking for the sake of "saving" others is a lie. Kids need to be maskless and so do their teachers to learn best. Mask do more harm than good

---

I never thought of masks as saving lives. They help reduce the spread.

Marissa99 said:

---

P.U.T.U said:

---

Marissa99 said:

---

I hear your points, Buster.

But something else to consider -- there is still a lot that we don't know about this particular coronavirus. I really hope that there are no lingering issues from Covid that will present themselves several years from now in kids and adults. Yes, long Covid does exist. I believe this. But there is still a lot that we don't know.

On a broader note, mankind is resilient and has navigated and adapted to many adverse situations over thousands of years. One way I look at this pandemic - as unfortunate as it is - is that it's another time that we have to adapt and weather through adversity. We need to adapt to some things such as wearing masks and other safety protocols for the time being. I think many people think that mask wearing and other measures are permanent. They're not. Change is the one constant in life....

---

There is math and science behind the reason cloth does not work to filter out a small virus cell. We do know that, masking for the sake of "saving" others is a lie. Kids need to be maskless and so do their teachers to learn best. Mask do more harm than good

---

I never thought of masks as saving lives. They help reduce the spread.

---

But they don't. And we're all going to catch it, so really no need to pretend they do what they don't.

Proof?

Marissa99 said:

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cisgenderedAggie said:

---

Marissa99 said:

---

I hear your points, Buster.

But something else to consider -- there is still a lot that we don't know about this particular coronavirus. I really hope that there are no lingering issues from Covid that will present themselves several years from now in kids and adults. Yes, long Covid does exist. I believe this. But there is still a lot that we don't know.

On a broader note, mankind is resilient and has navigated and adapted to many adverse situations over thousands of years. One way I look at this pandemic - as unfortunate as it is - is that it's another time that we have to adapt and weather through adversity. We need to adapt to some things such as wearing masks and other safety protocols for the time being. I think many people think that mask wearing and other measures are permanent. They're not. Change is the one constant in life....

---

What is the basis for when the measures are resolved? Need to be specific on the endpoints here.

---

That's a good question. I don't know what the endpoints are. But I don't think it's ever been communicated that all these protocols e.g. social distancing, mask wearing, etc. are permanent. All pandemics end. I figure the protocols will end once the pandemic concludes, which is hopefully sooner rather than later.

---

This is an ineffectual answer. Previous pandemics end because of things like spread being contained or people not dying. Eradication has rarely been the outset goal and never something that has been acceptable to sit around and wait for. We have never had a pandemic occur in the midst of the level of surveillance and detection that is possible today. And because of that, simple detection with extremely sensitive assays that cannot discriminate between active infections and residual material are sufficient to implement indefinite states of emergency, regardless of additional information. "Breakthrough cases" are largely a function of this.

With today's capabilities, and today's situation, more specific endpoints can and must be attainable. No one may be communicating permanence, but the rationale behind many of these policies cannot be resolve the circulation of an endemic virus when positive cases are the endpoint. Recognizing the specter of permanence is simply a matter of applying logical reasoning, and Covid is not going away. Meanwhile, politicization and stoking of division based on these protocols intensifies with active encouragement.

No sane person should accept an "I know it when I see it" endpoint for this.