Also, we eradicated polio after 40 years, right? It's not realistic. Covid, to an extent, will have to naturally play out to true eradication over a few year period, even with high vaccination rates. We can't wait that long or again, we cease to be a free republic.
Vaccine Reluctance
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beerad12man said:
Also, we eradicated polio after 40 years, right? It's not realistic. Covid, to an extent, will have to naturally play out to true eradication over a few year period, even with high vaccination rates. We can't wait that long or again, we cease to be a free republic.
In the US, the vaccine was introduced in the early 50's. Technically it took 25-30 years to eradicate it in the US, but you can see how vaccination had a significant impact very quickly when it was made a priority and people pundits without a scientific background or medical training on TV didn't have a platform to convince people they were being microchipped or experimented on.
It still hasn't been eradicated in places like Afghanistan and Nigeria where backwards village people refuse the vaccine because they believe it's part of a sterilization campaign, militants make it unsafe to deliver vaccine, or some other nonsense.
Was there a disinformation campaign by politicians and public health officials making people think the vaccine was ineffective?
This is what you will see with covid at 65-70% of adults, IMHO, over the next 2-3 years. Only a little higher just due to the nature of covid vs polio, it's transmission, population, etc. Basically nothing, but not true eradication.bigtruckguy3500 said:beerad12man said:
Also, we eradicated polio after 40 years, right? It's not realistic. Covid, to an extent, will have to naturally play out to true eradication over a few year period, even with high vaccination rates. We can't wait that long or again, we cease to be a free republic.
In the US, the vaccine was introduced in the early 50's. Technically it took 25-30 years to eradicate it in the US, but you can see how vaccination had a significant impact very quickly when it was made a priority and people pundits without a scientific background or medical training on TV didn't have a platform to convince people they were being microchipped or experimented on.
It still hasn't been eradicated in places like Afghanistan and Nigeria where backwards village people refuse the vaccine because they believe it's part of a sterilization campaign, militants make it unsafe to deliver vaccine, or some other nonsense.
Were they testing, or did they have the capability to do it on a wide scale like covid in 2021? 95% of polio patients never showed symptoms. I'm not sure they are directly comparable. I just think that covid will naturally have to be higher based on the way it infects people.
Also, what percentage got the vaccine within a year of them beginning to be worked on, and how long was it tested before it went to the mass public? How many had to go paralyzed to get it across the world? 1 in 2/7 million. With over a billion vaccines for covid, something like that would be rough for many healthy people. That's 370 in a billion, and again, after longer trials than if they just administered it within a year.
Look, I'm pro these vaccines, in fact here's a good article below that is probably one of the best I've read. But there's many differences to compare and/or think about with regards to polio in 1950s, the vaccination process, the length of that process, the spread of the disease, versus covid now, the length of the process, the spread of this disease, etc. I can see why many more are hesitant.
I would love it if 90% of the population got vaccinated. Doesn't appear to be the case. But at 65+% of adults, along with the continued reassurance of natural immunity, the waves will get less and less and eradicate this thing eventually, imo. If boosters are needed, then so be it. I'm not sure they will be necessary, even if they are pushed. More might be willing to take them after another year or 2 of data.
https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine
Just seeing this. Confirms that the goal posts have been moved, or better put, this was always the goal, and we as a society were drawn in thinking it would be to flatten the curve and protect the hospitals only. Nope.FrioAg 00 said:
LToday in a townhall at a large Houston hospital system (and one of the largest employers in the city), the respectful question was asked "When this started you required us to take measures to flatten the curve and stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed. Now that risk has come and gone, but the measures are still in place. What is the goal now?"
First the CMO answered (paraphrased) "this disease and others are still present. And just look at what happened to the Flu this year - we used to have 50k deaths per year (nationally) and now we have almost none. How many are acceptable, I think that was too much"
Then the CEO, another doctor, compared it to Polio and said we have practically eradicated all Polio so the goal should be to eradicate this disease as well.
Unbelievable. This is the power of fascism in the name of "I know what's best for you, so you're better off surrendering your freedoms to me".
On the other hand, to defend the doctors, that IS their job. They want every disease eradicated and I think that is fine. Their job should be to heal and save every patient even when they know they cannot and that is commendable. But at the same time, this is why doctors should not make policies for society as a whole. The rest of society doesn't need to be concerned about limiting covid, the flu or anything else as they have to live their lives and risks are part of life. The goal doesn't suddenly need to be disease eradication when before that there was no such push by the medical community to mitigate b/c of the flu. Sure, 50,000 flu deaths is tragic as hell, but we moved on just fine as a country through flu seasons. Suddenly now we need to social distance, mask up and so forth from now on b/c we can't have one person get the sniffles in this world? It is time that some doctors think bigger picture when publicly answering questions like this. Answers like that do much more harm than good.
500,000+ deaths, not 50,000. But setting aside fatalities, long-Covid complications are steadily coming into focus as a serious health consequence of even mild cases of the virus. The vaccines are proving to be very effective in preventing it, while widely-variable natural immunity less so. It's a personal choice, but the the odds are definitely on the side of getting inoculated.
Long-Covid
Long-Covid
Long covid sure is the new talking point, but for the vast majority it's just that, a talking point. And much of which goes away given time. And many of those currently choosing not to get vaccinated already had covid. I'd guess 40% or more in Texas. Again, this is coming from someone who took the vaccine and didn't hesitate with all information we have.
As for 50k, he's talking about the slippery slope we are having towards some wanting these types of measures forever to prevent the flu. Which only viral interference can do that. but whatever.
As for 50k, he's talking about the slippery slope we are having towards some wanting these types of measures forever to prevent the flu. Which only viral interference can do that. but whatever.
Quote:
Long COVID, as recognized by the CDC and National Institutes of Health, encompasses a range of illness symptoms that can persist weeks to months following an initial infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, or that can appear weeks afterward. Symptoms can include brain fog, fatigue, gastrointestinal issues, dizziness and shortness of breath, among others.
The guidance is likely to be a welcome sign for many long COVID patients, who are suffering from a condition experts are still trying to fully understand.
There's a lot of levels to unpack there (many of which revolve around who makes or should be making policy), but I think it's fair to note that we've had 500k+ Covid deaths with extensive mitigation efforts. We have 50k flu deaths per year with minimal efforts to mitigate and less than 50% of adults getting vaccinated.
What those efforts did is debatable, but the problem is that you have some making the argument that Covid wasn't that bad so we shouldn't have done anything but without doing anything we would have had different results. What action we should have taken is a different discussion, I don't think many would argue that the entire situation was mismanaged from the jump at virtually every level.
What those efforts did is debatable, but the problem is that you have some making the argument that Covid wasn't that bad so we shouldn't have done anything but without doing anything we would have had different results. What action we should have taken is a different discussion, I don't think many would argue that the entire situation was mismanaged from the jump at virtually every level.
fig96 said:
500k+ Covid deaths with extensive mitigation efforts. We have 50k flu deaths per year with minimal efforts to mitigate and less than 50% of adults getting vaccinated.
.
And we've never tested for flu at this level, and been liberal on classification for cause of death, and somehow completed eradicated one respiratory virus with NPIs but not COVID, so.... idk bro.
Maybe it is just the flu.
I believe we would have had the same or less had we never asked the 0-59 crowd to change a thing from their 2019 lives, and just kept it out of nursing homes and informed the highest risk of their relative risk ratio beginning around May of 2020. I mean, quite frankly, that's pretty much what we did in Texas. Sure, the optics of masks looks nice to those that think they work, but we way we used them likely made no difference. HEB, doesn't matter. not enough time. Restaurants? That's a joke, 45 seconds of wearing and then an hour at your table. Business lmiitations? Again, MIT proved that to be pretty useless as spread would be in the air. If anything, we should have encouraged ventilated areas more rather than worry about capacity or masks, But that's jmo.
But again, we aren't talking about that. We are talking about the response to frio's post that we cut 50k flu deaths, and the notion that 50k wasn't acceptable to that official. If people like that had their way, we'd probably social distance and mask and have business limitations every year. That's the slope we are trying to avoid. NOTHING should be different moving forward from this point on than December of 2019 with the rate of vaccine rollouts, but inevitably they will be because it's human nature to intervene and feel like they have to do something.
But again, we aren't talking about that. We are talking about the response to frio's post that we cut 50k flu deaths, and the notion that 50k wasn't acceptable to that official. If people like that had their way, we'd probably social distance and mask and have business limitations every year. That's the slope we are trying to avoid. NOTHING should be different moving forward from this point on than December of 2019 with the rate of vaccine rollouts, but inevitably they will be because it's human nature to intervene and feel like they have to do something.
Not to mention, it's 200+k viral deaths a year including pneumonia, chronic bronchitis, and other lower respiratory contagions. We are fast approaching no worse of a viral season now than before(and in part, because viral interference kept those deaths down and most of those deaths now just became the natural transition to covid deaths). The 500k deaths are sad, but have come and gone. So now it's about where to go from here. Nothing more to do at this point other than get back to normal, and keep encouraging shots, especially among the high risk. Anything else is just delaying normal for no real world benefit.
And those 50% of adults getting vaccinated from the flu vaccine are 50% more than we had with covid before the vaccines are actually able to make a noticeable impact with deaths, which is probably only just now beginning over the next month or two.
And those 50% of adults getting vaccinated from the flu vaccine are 50% more than we had with covid before the vaccines are actually able to make a noticeable impact with deaths, which is probably only just now beginning over the next month or two.
Read up on how flu deaths are classified and you might be surprised.Old Buffalo said:And we've never tested for flu at this level, and been liberal on classification for cause of death, and somehow completed eradicated one respiratory virus with NPIs but not COVID, so.... idk bro.fig96 said:
500k+ Covid deaths with extensive mitigation efforts. We have 50k flu deaths per year with minimal efforts to mitigate and less than 50% of adults getting vaccinated.
.
Maybe it is just the flu.
The doctor in question used flu and it's typical 50,000 person death rate. That is the 50,000 I was referring to. I edited my original post for clarification.74OA said:
500,000+ deaths, not 50,000. But setting aside fatalities, long-Covid complications are steadily coming into focus as a serious health consequence of even mild cases of the virus. The vaccines are proving to be very effective in preventing it, while widely-variable natural immunity less so. It's a personal choice, but the the odds are definitely on the side of getting inoculated.
Long-Covid
Capitol Ag said:The doctor in question used flu and it's typical 50,000 person death rate. That is the 50,000 I was referring to. I edited my original post for clarification.74OA said:
500,000+ deaths, not 50,000. But setting aside fatalities, long-Covid complications are steadily coming into focus as a serious health consequence of even mild cases of the virus. The vaccines are proving to be very effective in preventing it, while widely-variable natural immunity less so. It's a personal choice, but the the odds are definitely on the side of getting inoculated.
Long-Covid
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
Motorcycles are risky. I don't ride one, but everyone else needs to stop so I don't have to see them get hurt.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
Motorcycles are risky. I don't ride one, but everyone else needs to stop so I don't have to see them get hurt.
yukmonkey said:
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
Motorcycles are risky. I don't ride one, but everyone else needs to stop so I don't have to see them get hurt.
And it's a very simple answer that's been covered multiple times. Not everyone is able to be vaccinated. I'm not a part of this group, but I have empathy for them.
Also, unfortunately our rulers will also hold us all hostage until we hit certain numbers and I'd sure like to get back to normal. Not me being normal, been that way for a year.
Is that so? Who can't be vaccinated and how many are there?ORAggieFan said:yukmonkey said:
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
Motorcycles are risky. I don't ride one, but everyone else needs to stop so I don't have to see them get hurt.
And it's a very simple answer that's been covered multiple times. Not everyone is able to be vaccinated. I'm not a part of this group, but I have empathy for them.
Also, unfortunately our rulers will also hold us all hostage until we hit certain numbers and I'd sure like to get back to normal. Not me being normal, been that way for a year.
" 'People that read with pictures think that it's simply about a mask' - Dana Loesch" - Ban Cow Gas
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
......we are heading down a path of no return,yukmonkey said:
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
Motorcycles are risky. I don't ride one, but everyone else needs to stop so I don't have to see them get hurt.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/canada-calgary-pastor-arrested-covid-health-order-church-service
I would like to have public places and events fully open again. Until COVID numbers are reduced that will not happen so you not getting a vaccine hurts everyone that wants to go and works at these locations. This in turn hurts the economy as a whole.yukmonkey said:
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
The vaccines are are showing to be ~98% effective. Vaccines are far more effective if everyone gets them that can. The more that are vaccinated the less your chance of being exposed in the first place.
The more the virus is transferred between people the greater the chance of mutations that the vaccine or those that have previously built antibodies are not effective against. If a large portion of the population refuses to get vaccinated the virus will continue to mutate and this will go on indefinitely.
Bottom line is if everyone gets vaccinated this will all be over in a few weeks and we can go on with our lives as normal. That is why I care that you get vaccinated. There isn't a good reason not to and there are many reasons why you should. Not getting the vaccine is a selfish and ignorant act.
Would hospitals be overrun if we opened everything up now instead of waiting to try to convince people that don't want the vaccine to get vaccinated? If not, then there's no excuse not to open everything and remove all mandates.
Seersucker Ag 2011 said:
Would hospitals be overrun if we opened everything up now instead of waiting to try to convince people that don't want the vaccine to get vaccinated? If not, then there's no excuse not to open everything and remove all mandates.
Unfortunately that's not how most of our atrocious government works. I want everything open now (actually months ago) but I also realize we aren't using intelligence to make decisions and increasing the number vaccinated is a good thing for us as a society, both short and long term.
I will never get vaccinated for something that didn't affect me when I had it74OA said:WTF does that have to do with my post?Scruffy said:
Why should people who've already had the virus get vaccinated?
Looking at the hospitalization and fatality rates, why should anyone not in a high-risk category get vaccinated?
Just looking at the numbers and science.
@so dumb
Yes, of course. Be a good little boy and you can go back to a restaurant.
**** that. If someone thinks they need protection, they should absolutely get the vaccine. But it's none of their business what someone else does. Because aren't they now protected?
Vaccines are a choice and always should be, like being a fat ass, which is an American past time.
**** that. If someone thinks they need protection, they should absolutely get the vaccine. But it's none of their business what someone else does. Because aren't they now protected?
Vaccines are a choice and always should be, like being a fat ass, which is an American past time.
This is due to political reasons and not any rational medical or scientific reason. If that is your primary concern then I suggest you contact your elected officials and demand everything be returned to normal rather than expecting me and 90,000,000 other Americans to get a vaccine we currently don't want.lexofer said:I would like to have public places and events fully open again. Until COVID numbers are reduced that will not happen so you not getting a vaccine hurts everyone that wants to go and works at these locations. This in turn hurts the economy as a whole.yukmonkey said:
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
This is true of many viruses but isn't supported by historical evidence. The 1918 Spanish Flu fizzled out over time and did not mutate into a more severe/deadly virus. This is an absolutely BS excuse that, again, isn't supported by any fact.Quote:
The more the virus is transferred between people the greater the chance of mutations that the vaccine or those that have previously built antibodies are not effective against. If a large portion of the population refuses to get vaccinated the virus will continue to mutate and this will go on indefinitely.
Not wanting to is a good reason in a free society, and while there are many reasons getting it is beneficial there are no good reasons why anyone should be pressured or coerced into it.Quote:
There isn't a good reason not to and there are many reasons why you should. Not getting the vaccine is a selfish and ignorant act
" 'People that read with pictures think that it's simply about a mask' - Dana Loesch" - Ban Cow Gas
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
Why no response to this? The only compelling reason that everyone needs to be vaccinated whether they want it or not is because some people are unable to be vaccinated and are put at unethical risk by those who choose not to be.waitwhat? said:Is that so? Who can't be vaccinated and how many are there?ORAggieFan said:yukmonkey said:
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
Motorcycles are risky. I don't ride one, but everyone else needs to stop so I don't have to see them get hurt.
And it's a very simple answer that's been covered multiple times. Not everyone is able to be vaccinated. I'm not a part of this group, but I have empathy for them.
Also, unfortunately our rulers will also hold us all hostage until we hit certain numbers and I'd sure like to get back to normal. Not me being normal, been that way for a year.
But you can't present that single compelling reason without explaining just how many at-risk people can't be vaccinated and are being put at unethical risk.
The cost is restricting liberty of 90,000,000 people. What is the benefit?
" 'People that read with pictures think that it's simply about a mask' - Dana Loesch" - Ban Cow Gas
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
ORAggieFan said:yukmonkey said:
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
Motorcycles are risky. I don't ride one, but everyone else needs to stop so I don't have to see them get hurt.
And it's a very simple answer that's been covered multiple times. Not everyone is able to be vaccinated. I'm not a part of this group, but I have empathy for them.
Also, unfortunately our rulers will also hold us all hostage until we hit certain numbers and I'd sure like to get back to normal. Not me being normal, been that way for a year.
Sounds like the answer is new rulers, not to force people to take a vaccine they don't want/ need.
Ol_Ag_02 said:ORAggieFan said:yukmonkey said:
It's a very simple question from my perspective.
If you're vaccinated and your vaccine works, why do you care what others do?
Motorcycles are risky. I don't ride one, but everyone else needs to stop so I don't have to see them get hurt.
And it's a very simple answer that's been covered multiple times. Not everyone is able to be vaccinated. I'm not a part of this group, but I have empathy for them.
Also, unfortunately our rulers will also hold us all hostage until we hit certain numbers and I'd sure like to get back to normal. Not me being normal, been that way for a year.
Sounds like the answer is new rulers, not to force people to take a vaccine they don't want/ need.
I never said force. I answered why it's important for others to get it. Your choice. I just despise this division and unwillingness to listen to others. There are valid reasons to get it as I expressed. I'd still have a beer with you if you don't.
I gave several valid reasons why you not getting the vaccine is harmful to everyone else. You just completely ignored what I said and repeated your argument. You're choosing to live in your bubble of ignorance. Don't bother replying again just to be insulting and repeating false claims, come up with valid reasoning or stop spreading bull***** Give me a valid reason you shouldn't get the vaccine, what you're saying why the government shouldn't mandate it, not why you shouldn't get one.yukmonkey said:
Yes, of course. Be a good little boy and you can go back to a restaurant.
**** that. If someone thinks they need protection, they should absolutely get the vaccine. But it's none of their business what someone else does. Because aren't they now protected?
Vaccines are a choice and always should be, like being a fat ass, which is an American past time.
Nothing you said there is a reason not to get a vaccine. The government tells you to wear a seat belt, do you not do that just because the government tells you so? Only 42,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents last year and only 0.7% of motor vehicle accidents are fatal but I bet you wear your seat belt anyway you scared little sheep. It doesn't hurt anyone else not to wear a seat belt but I hope you're being a good little boy and putting your seat belt on every time you get in the car because Daddy government tells you so. You can't drive to the restaurant unless you do.
In response to your last line:
https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/school/school-requirements.aspx
lexofer said:yukmonkey said:
Yes, of course. Be a good little boy and you can go back to a restaurant.
**** that. If someone thinks they need protection, they should absolutely get the vaccine. But it's none of their business what someone else does. Because aren't they now protected?
Vaccines are a choice and always should be, like being a fat ass, which is an American past time.
I gave several valid reasons why you not getting the vaccine is harmful to everyone else.
You did not.
" 'People that read with pictures think that it's simply about a mask' - Dana Loesch" - Ban Cow Gas
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
Also I wear a seat belt while I drive because there is an obvious, objectively proven benefit to wearing a seat belt.
Similarly, I wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle despite it not being required in Texas and many other states.
Your premise falls apart without even trying.
Similarly, I wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle despite it not being required in Texas and many other states.
Your premise falls apart without even trying.
" 'People that read with pictures think that it's simply about a mask' - Dana Loesch" - Ban Cow Gas
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
I have no issues if people do not want the vaccineI am surprised, however, at the number of people just on my street who are adamant they will not get it.
It was a "huh?" moment.
Luckily all people here seem sane and not "screamy" types
It was a "huh?" moment.
Luckily all people here seem sane and not "screamy" types
Make Mental Asylums Great Again!
My bad, you must have missed this part, which part do you disagree with and why? Just saying no doesn't make you right.waitwhat? said:
You did not.
1. If everyone gets a vaccine will public places be fully reopened sooner? Yes/NoQuote:
I would like to have public places and events fully open again. Until COVID numbers are reduced that will not happen so you not getting a vaccine hurts everyone that wants to go and works at these locations. This in turn hurts the economy as a whole.
The vaccines are are showing to be ~98% effective. Vaccines are far more effective if everyone gets them that can. The more that are vaccinated the less your chance of being exposed in the first place.
The more the virus is transferred between people the greater the chance of mutations that the vaccine or those that have previously built antibodies are not effective against. If a large portion of the population refuses to get vaccinated the virus will continue to mutate and this will go on indefinitely.
2. If everyone gets a vaccine will those vaccinated be less likely got get it due to lower chances of exposure? Yes/No
3. Are viruses more likely to mutate into different strains the more often they pass from person to person? Yes/No
Please tell me why the answers to all of these are no and give reasoning why.
Why do you think these is not an obvious proven benefit to not get the vaccine? The death rates have dropped drastically in the last few months since the vaccines came out.waitwhat? said:
Also I wear a seat belt while I drive because there is an obvious, objectively proven benefit to wearing a seat belt.
Similarly, I wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle despite it not being required in Texas and many other states.
Your premise falls apart without even trying.
lexofer said:Why do you think these is not an obvious proven benefit to not get the vaccine? The death rates have dropped drastically in the last few months since the vaccines came out.waitwhat? said:
Also I wear a seat belt while I drive because there is an obvious, objectively proven benefit to wearing a seat belt.
Similarly, I wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle despite it not being required in Texas and many other states.
Your premise falls apart without even trying.
The death rates have dropped because those at risk of a severe Covid case have gotten vaccinated.
Me getting vaccinated has no impact on that because I'm not at risk of a severe case.
" 'People that read with pictures think that it's simply about a mask' - Dana Loesch" - Ban Cow Gas
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Dr. Ron Paul
Big Tech IS the empire of lies
TEXIT
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